US Plants Propaganda As "news"

[Parrothead]

@CE_ugh

w20th.....will we be there forever? Well, maybe not forever, but it'll be a lot like Germany and Japan. We will probably always have bases there, at least in our lifetime.

[TJones]

Heaven forbid that we take a few embarrassing photos of them with their faces covered up, it's not like we CUT THEIR HEADS OFF ON VIDEO or anything is it ? That would just be going to far wouldn't it. You want to talk about that bigtex, would that have been better than snapping a few shots of some dumbass striking a pose in front of some naked men doing a cheerleader pyramid, oh the horror, oooo the shame.

[west20th]

@CE_ugh

w20th.....will we be there forever? Well, maybe not forever, but it'll be a lot like Germany and Japan. We will probably always have bases there, at least in our lifetime.

At 6Billion a month how long can we sustain that? How will we accomplish this without a draft? My major concern is the incompetence of the people running this war. We wouldn't be in this mess if we finished the job we started in the 1st gulf war. But no, we "cut and ran" then. Who was in charge then? In a large way it was Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz (excuse the name misspellings). Who is running the war now? The same incompetent boobs. If we are to finish what we started, and I still don't know what "finish" is because it's not clear why we "started", Bush needs to regain the country's support or at least it's confidence. A good first step would be to dump Field Marshall Rumsfeld and install some competent leadership.

[sevfiv]

If we are to finish what we started, and I still don't know what "finish" is because it's not clear why we "started"

okay - an innocent question - what exactly would "finishing" consist of?

(answers less the left/right wing prattle would be lovely )

[HeightsGuy]

Liberals, take heart, you're no longer the minority. The latest AP poll, besides giving Bush a 37% approval rating, shows 53% of Americans now view the Iraq war as a mistake. I know Cindy Sheehan doesn't have a 53% approval rating, so there's a lot more Americans out there against this war than the so-called freaks that conservatives are trying harder and harder to shout down. So, since this discussion is about propaganda, IMO the administration is not doing a very good job of it lately, but when you're putting lipstick on a pig what do you expect.

For me the final straw was the attempted character assasination of Murtha who up til now was as staunch a supporter as they come, for others it may be the ongoing discussion on the justification of certian forms of torture. There are many other final straws that don't involve being a peacenick, so stop trying to paint the anti-war movement as some hippy thing riding on the back of a liberal press, and wake up and at least acknowledge that true red-blooded patriotic Americans are starting to ask difficult questions that aren't getting answered.

[west20th]

okay - an innocent question - what exactly would "finishing" consist of?

(answers less the left/right wing prattle would be lovely )

Thats the million dollar question. No one seems to know.

[HeightsGuy]

w20th.....will we be there forever? Well, maybe not forever, but it'll be a lot like Germany and Japan. We will probably always have bases there, at least in our lifetime.

I thought one of the pillars of Conservatism was being against nation building?

"You can support the troops but not the president."

--Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

[dbigtex56]

okay - an innocent question - what exactly would "finishing" consist of?

(answers less the left/right wing prattle would be lovely )

I think we can agree that ideally Iraq would have a stable, democratic, pro-Western government.

This should happen about the same time that Palestine and Israel agree to peacefully unite.

[VicMan]

It's a shame that the word "propaganda" is so negative. People get propaganda all the time.

[RedScare]

Speaking of propaganda, here's the first Chapter of the Iraqi Constitution.

CHAPTER ONE: BASIC PRINCIPLES

Article (1): The Republic of Iraq is an independent, sovereign nation, and the

system of rule in it is a democratic, federal, representative (parliamentary)

republic.

Article (2): 1st - Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source

of legislation:

(a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.

b No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.

c No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms

outlined in this constitution.

2nd - This constitution guarantees the Islamic identity of the majority of the

Iraqi people and the full religious rights for all individuals and the freedom of

creed and religious practices.

Some "democracy".

Here's the rest of it, if you need some light reading.

http://www.iraqigovernment.org/constitution_en.htm

[bachanon]

I thought one of the pillars of Conservatism was being against nation building?

that was before we were attacked by a non-specific enemy (not a nation) with no specific geographic locale (on 9/11). i think the purpose of nation building in this instance is in order to attempt to prevent a vacuum of power in this region. it is unfortunate that we are in iraq, but we cannot leave under the circumstances.

[TJones]

It's a shame that the word "propaganda" is so negative. People get propaganda all the time.

Apparently when it doesn't support your view it is "propaganda", when it does support it, it is "liberalism". Go figure.

BTW,

Red, I think that constitution is gonna be a bear to decipher.

[HeightsGuy]

Sorry Bachanon, I'm not going to let you out-patriot me by wrapping yourself in the 9/11 flag. How does 9/11 have anything to do with nation-building other than being an all-too-familiar excuse for people who don't have a coherent argument?

[west20th]

i think the purpose of nation building in this instance is in order to attempt to prevent a vacuum of power in this region. it is unfortunate that we are in iraq, but we cannot leave under the circumstances.

I don't remember the vacuum of power argument for going to war with Iraq but there have been so many reasons I must have missed that one. OK we can't leave now. Bush and Co. ____ and fell back in it and now we have to clean up their mess. But what we are doing now is NOT working. According to Bush we "keep turning the corner" with each new milestone (constitution, elections etc.) and things just keep on deteriorating. If you "keep turning the corner" in the same direction you end up where you started. If we don't come up with some plan for success staying longer, as things are now, will only make matters worse. They have their sovereignty, they have their constitution and soon they will have their elected government. It is time to come home.

[nmainguy]

Well, you have one thing right--I'm not a Conservative. I'm a middle-of-the-road Republican, the daughter of a WWII veteran (USMC) and a WASPish housewife. It isn't my job to be "thoughtful" to you or to anyone else when it comes to my beliefs as to where this country is heading. Do I blindly follow Bush? Nope--in fact, there's a few things I'm not too happy about--the borders, for one--but I do believe in FINISHING a job that we started and doing it right---not running off in the middle of it all just because it isn't working the way a certain group (uh, can I say leftist without you going deaf?) thought it was all going to. I am in no way an "apologist". Oh gosh no. I am not sorry we got into the war, but I am damn sorry that you are.

By the way, I wasn't trying to be clever or cute--I am already both. Just ask my husband. As Yoda said, "...there is no try."

Again, you offer no new solutions-particularly when it comes to "FINISHING a job that we started". I agree with you, it isn't your job to be thoughtful. Since you clearly have made a conscience decision not to be, don't you think you could at least refrain from anymore tiersome ad hominem assaults?

[TJones]

I don't remember the vacuum of power argument for going to war with Iraq but there have been so many reasons I must have missed that one. OK we can't leave now. Bush and Co. ____ and fell back in it and now we have to clean up their mess. But what we are doing now is NOT working. According to Bush we "keep turning the corner" with each new milestone (constitution, elections etc.) and things just keep on deteriorating. If you "keep turning the corner" in the same direction you end up where you started. If we don't come up with some plan for success staying longer, as things are now, will only make matters worse.

What do you want west20, snap your fingers and *POOF* a new nation is there, c'mon chief ?! Less than 4 years and they announced that there will be troop removals in 2006. How long do think it took to recover from our own Civil War ?

[west20th]

What do you want west20, snap your fingers and *POOF* a new nation is there, c'mon chief ?! Less than 4 years and they announced that there will be troop removals in 2006. How long do think it took to recover from our own Civil War ?

OK. What should we do? What we are doing now ain't working chief. It ain't working now and it ain't going to work in 2006. "Staying the course" when we are rudderless ain't the way to go.

[bachanon]

Sorry Bachanon, I'm not going to let you out-patriot me by wrapping yourself in the 9/11 flag. How does 9/11 have anything to do with nation-building other than being an all-too-familiar excuse for people who don't have a coherent argument?

i didn't use 9/11 as an excuse. i was responding to someone who asked about conservatives not believing or believing in nation building (historically they don't). i simply stated that since 9/11 and the circumstances that have led us to where we are today, conservatives feel that in this case it is necessary. we cannot leave with the current state of things (blame put aside). simply because 9/11 and nation building are in a response does not imply a causal relationship.

I don't remember the vacuum of power argument for going to war with Iraq but there have been so many reasons I must have missed that one.

once again, my statement is taken out of context. i simply stated that because we are their now, regardless of the circumstances, we must stay in order for stability (nation build, if you will). if you will reread the statement and what it is in response to, you may notice that the vacuum of power was never mentioned as a reason for going to war, only a reason for staying.

[HeightsGuy]

It does to imply a relationship, as in Republicans don't nation build, but 9/11 changed everything, Republicans are for smaller government, but 9/11 changed everything, Republicans want to abolish the Department of Education, but 9/11 made us pass No Child Left Behind, Republicans are against entitlements, but 9/11 made us pass the largest entitlement since LBJ with prescription drugs, and on and on.

[midtown 4.2]

prop·a·gan·da

noun

Definitions:

1. publicity to promote something: information put out by an organization or government to promote a policy, idea, or cause

2. misleading publicity: deceptive or distorted information that is systematically spread

The way I see it, the US military is using this propaganda for a beneficial cause . . . a cause that will help ALL people; therefore I have no problems with that. Secondly, the stories of progress submitted to the Iraqi papers are true just a bit un-glamorous. No wonder they have a hard time getting published.

You Libs out there, honestly answer this question.

Which headline will grab a person's attention . . . thus selling more papers.

A. Insurgents detonate truck bomb, killing 15.

B. US army personnel participate at ribbon cutting ceremony opening new water treatment plant.

Remember the old adage . . ."if it bleeds, it leads"

Unfortunately, our media is geared towards the blood and guts, if this is ALL you hear then I don't blame a person for thinking that nothing good has come out of this war.

[bachanon]

It does to imply a relationship, as in Republicans don't nation build, but 9/11 changed everything, Republicans are for smaller government, but 9/11 changed everything, Republicans want to abolish the Department of Education, but 9/11 made us pass No Child Left Behind, Republicans are against entitlements, but 9/11 made us pass the largest entitlement since LBJ with prescription drugs, and on and on.

9/11 Was the beginning of a war that has brought us to this place. Republicans didn't decide on 9/11 that we now have to nation build. We now must sustain a large middle eastern region that is no longer controlled by a terrorist/dictator, at least until it can sustain itself. 9/11 Is not an excuse it was the beginning of the path that brought us here. it seems you have a bone to pick. sorry to have picked a scab.

[RedScare]

It isn't my job to be "thoughtful" to you or to anyone else when it comes to my beliefs as to where this country is heading.

Well, yeah, actually it IS your job to be thoughtful as a functioning member of a republic. Too many citizens of this Republic don't think, don't vote and don't fight the continual erosion of the rights that MY dad fought for in WWII.

If people did a little more thinking in this country and a little less "redneck diplomacy", and a lot less ceding of the governance of this country to the corporations that buy off our politicians, because we're too busy working, shopping and watching American Idol, then we might not be sitting in a $6 Billion a month hellhole that our elected leaders don't seem to know how to get out of without creating Iran II.

NOTE to bachanan: No, 9/11 is NOT what brought us to this place. 9/11 is what allowed Americans to be talked into coming to this place. Don't confuse the two.

[nmainguy]

We wouldn't be in this mess if we finished the job we started in the 1st gulf war. But no, we "cut and ran" then.

Sorry, west, old pal-gotta disagree with you on that point. We did exactly as what was tasked by the UN Security Council Resolutions: drive Saddam and his troops out of Kuwait. We had grown-ups running things then; GHW Bush listening to experience: Colin Powell. We all know how GW kicked him to the curb.

BTW, here's the opening statement from the press release regarding Desert Storm:

PRESS RELEASE

OPERATION DESERT STORM: TEN YEARS AFTER

NEW DOCUMENTS SHED LIGHT ON ROLE OF INTELLIGENCE,

STEALTH TECHNOLOGY AND SPACE SYSTEMS

Washington, D.C. -- During the early morning hours (Baghdad time) of January 17, 1991, the United States and its allies initiated Operation Desert Storm in accord with United Nations resolutions and U.S. government policy directives that authorized the use of force to expel Iraqi forces from Kuwait. The National Security Archive is today placing a collection of declassified and unclassified documents concerning Desert Storm on its web site. The documents primarily focus on the intelligence, space support, Scud-hunting, and stealth (F-117A) elements of the conflict.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010117/

[Guest danax]

9/11 Was the beginning of a war that has brought us to this place. Republicans didn't decide on 9/11 that we now have to nation build.

Republicans didn't decide on 9/11, nor did Democrats, but the President knew it was going to happen and allowed it to so that the New World Order could move forward with the elimination of another rouge nation. Even Pearl Harbor has been shown to have been known about and allowed to happen. Create fear amongst the masses to unify them in the desired direction. I like this quote from David Rockefeller,

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order"

and, ( I love this one, he wants the elite bankers to run things for everyone )

"We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries."

David Rockefeller,

( founder of the Trilateral Commission),

in an address to a meeting of The Trilateral Commission,

in June, 1991

Or from the younger half of Bush/Clinton we have, "There are a lot of very brilliant people who believe that the nation-state is fast becoming a relic of the past,"

President Clinton,

New York Times, November 25, 1997

or, "What I'm trying to do is to promote a process of reorganization of the world ..."

President Clinton,

interview with Argentine reporters, October 17, 1997.

This game of Democrats vs. Republicans is just an illusion as far as the real big picture. Clinton was as much a part of the plan as is Bush, and Kerry or Gore would've done as much as they could to move the plan forward too.

So, the plan is for world government. Good or bad? Are our freedoms growing or shrinking? Are we being lied to? Nations as we know them will be nothing more than another football team with a flag, mascot and colors.

Control of Iraq has been a big desire for a long time and Bush Jr. wanted to be passed the ball so that he could be the one to score. All that stuff about weapons was just a head fake at the 5 yard line. They might let the boys go home at some point to keep "we the people" pacified but control will never be relinquished.

[westguy]

Saddam only had control over Iraq, and even then only parts of it. The Kurdish region and the southern Shiite region were autonomous before the beginning of the war. Now they are in charge of the entire country. The problem is that when we leave Iraq, the next guy in charge will become the next Saddam. Democracy only exists if we are there to enforce it. When we leave, the majority group will take control and people will come from all over the Middle East to help the restore minority rule. I can see both regimes becoming opressive ones.

[Parrothead]

Again, you offer no new solutions-particularly when it comes to "FINISHING a job that we started". I agree with you, it isn't your job to be thoughtful. Since you clearly have made a conscience decision not to be, don't you think you could at least refrain from anymore tiersome ad hominem assaults?

Where, in any of my posts, do I have any "tiersome" (sic) ad hominem assaults? Because I observe that a certain political grouping behaves in a manner concurrent with one generally observed by others? Isn't that what you did to me when you assumed I left Fox News out of my post? Yeah...oooohkay.

Let me make myself more clear, so that you TOTALLY understand where I stand: we need to keep our troops in Iraq, then head to Iran and kick SOME MORE ASS....etc and so forth until the little terrorist bastards have no other place to hide. If I could personally shoot daisy cutters up the ass of the leader of the country that is keeping Osama I would. That is how strongly I feel about it.

Oh yeah, and N. Korea just needs to be wiped off the map.

[westguy]

That's just... really really dumb.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Rush Limbaugh is propaganda. The Democratic/Republican conventions are propaganda. Military news on Iraq is propaganda. But it's their job, and it's not like they're lying to us....just...speaking the truth to an extent.

Keep an open mind, know what's real, what's fake, and let them all say what they want. I'm sure the Iraqis and the troops in Iraq really know what's going on in Iraq, and know what's propaganda on both sides and what the truth really is. That's all that really matters. I know our troops and the Iraqi people are doing their best to get Iraq out of a battlezone-situation, but that's really up to the leaders on both sides, not them.

[TJones]

Rush Limbaugh is propaganda. The Democratic/Republican conventions are propaganda. Military news on Iraq is propaganda. But it's their job, and it's not like they're lying to us....just...speaking the truth to an extent.

Keep an open mind, know what's real, what's fake, and let them all say what they want. I'm sure the Iraqis and the troops in Iraq really know what's going on in Iraq, and know what's propaganda on both sides and what the truth really is. That's all that really matters. I know our troops and the Iraqi people are doing their best to get Iraq out of a battlezone-situation, but that's really up to the leaders on both sides, not them.

Rush is entertainment, he is in no part paid for his efforts, by the U.S. Government. Rush is paid by EIB. he is not a propaganda machine, he is not running for office, he just tells it as he sees it, and lets you decide whether you want to believe it or not. I know what you are trying to say though, he is biased in his viewson the War.

I would love to hear our fellow member "Houstonian in Iraq's" take on all this, since he has actually been there during all this, and has first hand knowledge and he is actually having to go back there very soon, but I don't want to put that man between a rock and a hard place. What a firestorm this has become.

West20 asked what I would do, I would be a horrible President, not qualified to make such decisions, but myself, and the majority of the American people voted GW in, and he was trusted to make a dreadful decision, The Senate decided that after seeing the same evidence that GW had before them, that they came to the same conclusion as GW, that WAR was a final solution, and that diplomacy was not gonna work with this maniac. So, what do I think, how would I handle it......We have to complete the task at hand, how could you possibly put a date on it, you set yourself a date, and what will the bad guys do, they'll wait it out, and as soon as we turn our back on them, BAM !, another U.S. Cole attack, another embassy bombing, another World Trade Center. I can't help but think that alot of you people that oppose this war would think differently if you truly had become a casualty of it. I know all of you that oppose this war would agree that going after Hitler in WW2 was a good idea, but Germany never attacked us ! Japan did, and we went after them and whoever was on their side. Saddam was on Bin Laden's side, so you have 2 choices, you either wait for the snake to come around and bite you again, or you pick up a gun, go find him, and blow his friggin head off.

[nmainguy]

Oh yeah, and N. Korea just needs to be wiped off the map.

"Oh yeah, and N. Korea just needs to be wiped off the map."

Wow. Wipe an entire nation of mostly innocent people [22,912,177 by the CIA 7/05 estimate] off the map?

I think your advocacy of genocide may need additional thought.

But, as you said yourself, "It isn't my job to be "thoughtful"..."