US Plants Propaganda As "news"

[west20th]

Rush is entertainment, he is in no part paid for his efforts, by the U.S. Government. Rush is paid by EIB.

, but Germany never attacked us ! Japan did,

First a little off topic aside on Rush. The man is selling Rush Limbaugh gold memberships (or whatever they are called) that they can then be given to servicemen in Iraq so they can listen to that gas bag. Why doesn't he just GIVE the memberships?! He has to sell them, make his profit, then bequeath the servicemen with this "gift". The man is DESPICABLE!!!!

No Germany did not attack us. They did declare war on us however. The comparison between Iraq and Germany is ludicrous.

[HeightsGuy]

9/11 Was the beginning of a war that has brought us to this place. Republicans didn't decide on 9/11 that we now have to nation build. We now must sustain a large middle eastern region that is no longer controlled by a terrorist/dictator, at least until it can sustain itself. 9/11 Is not an excuse it was the beginning of the path that brought us here. it seems you have a bone to pick. sorry to have picked a scab.

So, here we are again linking 9/11 to Saddam. I believe it has been well documented that Saddam was many terrible things, but he was not an Islamic-fanatical terrorist who backed Al Qaeda. Saddam's regime was a secular one, his #2 (Aziz) is Christian. Now we are about to hand the keys over to the same Islamic denomonation (Shiites) that rules Iran. Progress indeed.

[TJones]

First a little off topic aside on Rush. The man is selling Rush Limbaugh gold memberships (or whatever they are called) that they can then be given to servicemen in Iraq so they can listen to that gas bag. Why doesn't he just GIVE the memberships?! He has to sell them, make his profit, then bequeath the servicemen with this "gift". The man is DESPICABLE!!!!

No Germany did not attack us. They did declare war on us however. The comparison between Iraq and Germany is ludicrous.

How is it ludicrous ? Germany declared war after the attack on Pearl Harbor, they thought they were tough guys, but again back to the topic of Iraq, Saddam might as well have declared it, he thought he was a toughguy too, he wouldn't play by the rules when he knew full well what was at stake, he decided to stay a tyrant and defy the U.N., so what do you do with someone that doesn't want to play by the rules ? Do you just let him keep killing Kurds by the thousands, do you let them keep producing Chemical and Biological weapons, without any checks or balances West ? OK, your turn, what would YOU do, given the same intelligence by OTHER nations, not just our own, about possible threats of an inhumane dictator , in order to fight the War on Terror ? Also, wouldn't you say the way the media here only portrays the losses of life and doesn't do squat to show the advances going on in Iraq would be "propaganda" also.

BTW, please explain to me again, why Rush should just give it away? He's not saying you have to buy what he is selling, but if you want to, it's available. Do you think that Sheehan is gonna "give" out her book to all the servicemen when it gets published ? Doubtful.

[west20th]

How is it ludicrous ? Germany declared war after the attack on Pearl Harbor, they thought they were tough guys, but again back to the topic of Iraq, Saddam might as well have declared it, he thought he was a toughguy too, he wouldn't play by the rules when he knew full well what was at stake, he decided to stay a tyrant and defy the U.N., so what do you do with someone that doesn't want to play by the rules ? Do you just let him keep killing Kurds by the thousands, do you let them keep producing Chemical and Biological weapons, without any checks or balances West ? OK, your turn, what would YOU do, given the same intelligence by OTHER nations, not just our own, about possible threats of an inhumane dictator , in order to fight the War on Terror ? Also, wouldn't you say the way the media here only portrays the losses of life and doesn't do squat to show the advances going on in Iraq would be "propaganda" also.

BTW, please explain to me again, why Rush should just give it away? He's not saying you have to buy what he is selling, but if you want to, it's available. Do you think that Sheehan is gonna "give" out her book to all the servicemen when it gets published ? Doubtful.

Iraq was contained. We didn't have to attack when we did, we could have waited. Germany was not contained and was on the verge of global domination. Comparing Germany and Irag really makes no sense.

Rush is profiting on peoples desire to help and support the troops. Again DESPICABLE!!!

With Sheehan. She may as well give her books to the troops since she won't sell many. I agree with her views on holding W accountable for his incompetence but her views are a little to far out of the main stream that, at times, may be counter productive. She has brought attention to this mess W has gotten us into however and she has made a sacrifice in this war that few of us have. What has Rush done? Anyway, why justify what Rush is doing by comparing it to something Cindy Sheehan MAY do? Her book isn't even published yet.

[nmainguy]

Also, wouldn't you say the way the media here only portrays the losses of life and doesn't do squat to show the advances going on in Iraq would be "propaganda" also.

BTW, please explain to me again, why Rush should just give it away?

OK, TJ, just 2 points I'd like to make. ALL media concentrates on bad news. Even the majority of war coverage on Fox is about bad news. It provides better ratings thus higher advertising rates. Sad but true.

Limbaugh is in buisness first and formost for Limbaugh. He is free to do anything he wants however distasteful that may be. We are all free to applaud or razz him as well.

OPPS! One more thing: if you and west can't get along I will TURN THIS CAR AROUND RIGHT NOW!!! I MEAN IT!!!

Seriously I like the lively discussion between us all and at least you two haven't advocated wiping an entire country off the map ala Parrot.

[west20th]

OPPS! One more thing: if you and west can't get along I will TURN THIS CAR AROUND RIGHT NOW!!! I MEAN IT!!!

Hey. I think TJ and I agreed on something a couple of days ago. Can't remember what is was now though.

[Jeebus]

Whoah.. just 24 hours and this thread has exploded. A couple of things:

By today's media standards, every conflict post-WWII could be viewed as wrong and unnessessary. I would even wonder how today's media would have handled any of our great conflicts?

The comment about North Korea getting wiped off the map is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Do a little research before you pick which countries you want to erase. North Korea is not the problem, its dictator is.

Soldiers are very hesitant to have the press follow along due to incidents like what the Marine who shot the already injuried insurgant in the mosque faced. If the press would report success, along with the failures, then you would see more cooperation with the military. As of right now, only failures are reported.

The six billion dollars a month is to pay our beloved private contractors - some who are based here in Houston. One of you reading this right now probably works for them. Another couple of you have immediate family who work for them. What do you do? Curse big business and go to the poorhouse, or live the American Dream - no matter the moral, ethical, or fiscal price?

The middle east is a lost cause. We need pull out, and make it policy to never go back - EVER. We overthrew Saddam - woo hoo.. now can we come home? We've got the oil contracts now lets get the hell out. How many Korea's, Vietnam's, and now Iraq's must we endure before we learn our lesson? The middle east is a super-nova of fantatical religion. In time, like all super-novas, it will implode and collapse upon itself.

To all you right-wingers: You're just as guilty of blowing smoke as the left-wingers are. Your fight to keep the troops there is doing just as much harm as the left-wingers' fight to bring them home. You both spend so much time mud slinging that the most important issues are simply left to rot. I'll say this once: If you depend on Conservative Talk Radio or Air America for your news - you are STUPID. Please do us all a favor, reach across your desk, tear some scotch tape off the roll - and tape your mouth shut.

Our country needs to draw a line, and determine our priorities. I hope that someone will come along in 2008 and deliver us from the crapbucket of a political quagmire our country is in. Bring our troops home, protect our borders, focus on alternate fuels, and focus on American agriculture & manufacturing. You know, all that lame stuff that made our country great once - and that the average 19 year old has no clue about.

..I'll apologize now about the rant.

[sevfiv]

Our country needs to draw a line, and determine our priorities. I hope that someone will come along in 2008 and deliver us from the crapbucket of a political quagmire our country is in. Bring our troops home, protect our borders, focus on alternate fuels, and focus on American agriculture & manufacturing. You know, all that lame stuff that made our country great once - and that the average 19 year old has no clue about.

THANK you thank you - i don't think i articulated it as well as you, but i agree 100%

[RedScare]

Good job, Jeebus.

[west20th]

..I'll apologize now about the rant.

No apologies necessary. Great statement.

[nmainguy]

..I'll apologize now about the rant.

I couldn't have ranted it better myself.

Excellent work!

[nmainguy]

...anyway, back to the topic...why has Sen. John Warner[R] Va., the Chairman of the Armed Services Committee said his panel would look into the matter "because I'm concerned that our credibility abroad is very important."

I found this from http://www.sptimes.com/2005/12/01/Worldand...rmation_.shtml: "In the very process of preventing misinformation from another side, they are creating misinformation through a process that disguises the source for information that is going out," said John Schulz, dean of Boston University's College of Communications and a veteran journalist. "You can't be creating a model for democracy while subverting one of its core principles, a free independent press."

I find it interesting that Sen. Warner-normally a staunch supporter of the Cheney/Rumsfeld/Bush invasion of Iraq to be so out of pocket when it comes to the Defense Dept. paying up to $200 per month to Iraqi newspaper, radio and television journalists to spread propaganda third hand throughout the Middle east.

It seems to me that if we were doing a great job, none of this would be neccessary-much less having to pay for disinformation to prop up a disasterously failed and inept policy.

Anyone want to jump in on Red's original topic here?

[Jeebus]

How can you have a true free press in a non-democratic society.

Just because they recently adopted a democratic constitution, that doesn't automatically make them a democratic society.

[nmainguy]

How can you have a true free press in a non-democratic society.

Just because they recently adopted a democratic constitution, that doesn't automatically make them a democratic society.

"How can you have a true free press in a non-democratic society."

Well, of course, you can't.

"Just because they recently adopted a democratic constitution..."

Oh? Really?

Alright, class, shall we look into Chapter One Article 2 Sec. 1 of the new Cheney/Bush sponsored "democratic" Iraqi Constitution?

CHAPTER ONE: BASIC PRINCIPLES

Article (2):Sec 1-Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source

of legislation:

a. No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.

b. No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.

c. No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedom outlined in this constitution.

a. negates b. and c. ...well, you can see where this is going.

Let the Civil War begin!

[Jeebus]

Nmainguy I agree completely, but Bush seems to think this is democratic because now they get to vote on who can enforce their twisted constitution.

We're just playing political reindeer games with them. Same old song & dance for the U.S.

[Parrothead]

LOL! The two people I knew would react to my comment did. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. And great comeback--"that's really dumb." uh......yeah. It's called an opinion. I think yours are right up there with COMPLETE IDIOCY, so now we're even! Congratulations.

[west20th]

LOL! The two people I knew would react to my comment did. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. And great comeback--"that's really dumb." uh......yeah. It's called an opinion. I think yours are right up there with COMPLETE IDIOCY, so now we're even! Congratulations.

Hey you have every right to your pro-genocide position. This is the USA not N. Korea damnit!!!!

[HeightsGuy]

LOL! The two people I knew would react to my comment did. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. And great comeback--"that's really dumb." uh......yeah. It's called an opinion. I think yours are right up there with COMPLETE IDIOCY, so now we're even! Congratulations.

OK, I'll be #3, and I'll even be democratic about how I say it:

You're opinion is really dumb!

[nmainguy]

LOL! The two people I knew would react to my comment did. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. And great comeback--"that's really dumb." uh......yeah. It's called an opinion. I think yours are right up there with COMPLETE IDIOCY, so now we're even! Congratulations.

I'm really surprised to see you here again after your last post. I thought that maybe the negative response to your callous regard for human life might have shamed you.

I was wrong.

The entertainment value of your ad hominem attacks ceased after your proposal to commit genocide on millions of N. Koreans.

As for myself, this will be my last response to you in this thread.

[TJones]

QUOTE(west20th @ Wednesday, November 30th, 2005 @ 4:45pm)

We wouldn't be in this mess if we finished the job we started in the 1st gulf war. But no, we "cut and ran" then.

Wow ! What a very Conservative, Pro-military view that is, you didn't think it was ok THEN to cut and run, but you are saying it is ok NOW to do this, and just leave all those people in shambles ?"Hey, we got rid of Saddam for you, now you guys go hash it out on your own." They have no concept of what Democracy is. They need our help. As nmain said, we didn't cut and run, we did what we set out to do, Oh, the question was raised at the time whether to go ahead and take out Saddam and be done with it. It wasn't part of the outline given when George Sr. said we were going to defend Kuwait. So, would you say we gave Saddam about 13 years or so to clean up his act, and he didn't ? I agree with Jeebus, and you West, that yes, we need to pull out, but you can't just do it overnight, We have to finish getting all the pieces in place. West, you said Germany wasn't contained, and why was that, because nobody checked them. That's what we were doing to Saddam, and he decided that he wanted a war. We are now close to the end of this thing, elections in 2 weeks, Soldiers will be coming back in 2006, but now that we are at the end, all the Dems want to say that it has taken too long, when just a few months ago they thought we were going to be there for another 5 years. I just want to see someone say it, would Kerry have immediately pulled out all the troops if he were Pres. ?

BTW, yes, I am sure West and I have agreed silently on a few things on this board. This is just one subject that we feel equally strong about,but we just have different views. Nmain, don't you dare turn this car around, I can't wait to get to where this wonderful forum is going.*beep,beep*

[west20th]

QUOTE(west20th @ Wednesday, November 30th, 2005 @ 4:45pm)

BTW, yes, I am sure West and I have agreed silently on a few things on this board. This is just one subject that we feel equally strong about,but we just have different views. Nmain, don't you dare turn this car around, I can't wait to get to where this wonderful forum is going.*beep,beep*

Off topic but what the hey, it's Friday. I always thought it was funny when my father (who would be driving at the time) would always say "don't make me come back there, you don't want me to come back there". Yeah right, we wanna see you put the car in auto-pilot while climb over the back seat and woop our butts.

[nmainguy]

Off topic but what the hey, it's Friday. I always thought it was funny when my father (who would be driving at the time) would always say "don't make me come back there, you don't want me to come back there". Yeah right, we wanna see you put the car in auto-pilot while climb over the back seat and woop our butts.

OK-just this one time off-topic. We were driving to see my dad's family in Boston and were being 4 typical kids squabbling in the back of the station wagon. My dad said the "I'll turn this car around..." thing and my smart-ass sister laughed and said something like "Yeah-Right". The long arm of our father reached around grabbed her and said "Wanna bet, missy?" never missing a beat.

I think we pretty much traveled in silence the rest of the day.

It's a great story told annually at holidays to the still embarassment of my sister.

[RedScare]

I think some of you are forgetting a bit of the rationale in 1991. Yes, officially, we drove Saddam from Kuwait, but there was a debate whether to go to Baghdad and take out Saddam. The intelligent President Bush and his counselors decided to leave a weakened Saddam in power because he could control the 3 factions in Iraq. They specifically DID NOT want to get caught up in the exact scenario we find ourselves in today.

The unintelligent Bush was convinced by his handlers to go to Iraq and do the exact OPPOSITE of what his intelligent father did. They knew the current result was likely. It had been debated 12 years earlier. They just chose to ignore the probable result, and since no one had the guts to disagree, they were surprised when the insurgency started.

BTW, I wonder where parrothead is going to get the troops to go attack the rest of the world the way she advocates. We can't even control a single country, weakened from 12 years of sanctions, and now she wants to take on Iran, North Korea, and half the rest of the world. Brilliant.

[Jeebus]

We can't even control a single country, weakened from 12 years of sanctions..

This is drastically incorrect. We could easily dominate the Iraqi populous if allowed to use the same fighting tactics from Vietnam, along with the field leadership style of WWII. POLITICS EXCLUDED.

Until the radical-left backs down however, the government will be forced to continue its "soft-warfare tactics". This is what I meant by the left is just as guilty as the right when it comes to kills our troops.

[RedScare]

What "radical-left" is the Bush Administration listening to? Colin Powell? Wolowitz? Cheney?

No one outside of the Bush Administration is controlling how this fiasco is performed. You can't go and blame a group that is not only not in power, but not even on the radar for the screwups of the neocons.

And don't blame the media, either. The media gave them a free ride for 2 years before they started pointing out the failures of policy in earnest.

And the American people? I doubt 57% of us qualify as radical leftists, but even that has not stopped this circus.

No, the downside to being President with majorities in both houses of Congress is that when you screw up, it is ALL your fault.

[HeightsGuy]

Jeebus, I think your statement is incorrect. Notwithstanding everything that got us here, the whole crux of the current problem is that all the might in the World cannot overcome a determined underground insurrection. Show me one point in history where it has. Do a little research on German occupation during WWII. Every country Germany occupied has stories of freedom fighters who hid in the mountains and waged gorilla war on the occupiers. Do you think Germany used 'soft-warfare' tactics?

I am by no means defending the Iraqi insurrection, I am only pointing out that what they are doing is not only the only way they can fight, it's also the smartest way given their position. Whether we like it or not, those people think they are doing the right thing. Winning this has as much to do with Iraqi opinion of the insurrection as it does with how many troops we have on the ground. If we can get the people of Iraq to denounce the insurrection, it will go away, but as long as people are out there support these guys we will never have the victory we are looking for.

That's why I want us to cut our losses and leave. I am not a pacifist here, I'm a realist.

[nmainguy]

This is drastically incorrect. We could easily dominate the Iraqi populous if allowed to use the same fighting tactics from Vietnam, along with the field leadership style of WWII. POLITICS EXCLUDED.

Until the radical-left backs down however, the government will be forced to continue its "soft-warfare tactics". This is what I meant by the left is just as guilty as the right when it comes to kills our troops.

Jeebus,

I don't think the fighting tactics worked out too well for us in VietNam. Historicly when a 3rd party takes sides in another country's civil war-2 sides loose and one of them is always the 3rd. Iraq is approaching the time when I believe all-out civil war will take place. Unfortunatly we don't have WWII class grown-ups running this show.

I have to agree with Red. The Republicans are running the show. They wanted power and now they are showing just how inept and incompetent some of them are, i.e. Bush. He's out of his leauge and in over his head.

I don't know for the life of me why he doesn't listen to the voices of experience just standing by to be heard. Sen's Warner and McCain come to mind. Colin Powell. Brent Scocroft. GHW Bush for christ's sake. There's no lack of wisdom and experience out there for him to tap into and there's no excuse not to.

[PS. It's nice to see such a civil and lively discussion on this without anyone stooping to childish, Parrot style ranting.

Keep it up!]

[Parrothead]

This is drastically incorrect. We could easily dominate the Iraqi populous if allowed to use the same fighting tactics from Vietnam, along with the field leadership style of WWII. POLITICS EXCLUDED.

Until the radical-left backs down however, the government will be forced to continue its "soft-warfare tactics". This is what I meant by the left is just as guilty as the right when it comes to kills our troops.

Absolutely!

[TJones]

Jeebus is correct, you can't deny that the soldiers are under orders to show absolute restraint in dealing with the Iraqi people, you don't think that the hand tying comes from pressure on the left Red ? The tactics being used are all about diplomacy with the Iraqi people in an attempt to show them all that we are here to help them, not to oppress them in any way shape or form. Hearts and minds people, hearts and minds, The Iraqi people have never had a government or an Army for that matter, show them kindness, so some are having a hard time dealing with it. The left seems to think that Bush wants to make Iraq part of the U.S., when all he is trying to do is give that dirt pile back to it's people, which is what they want, or has anyone seen the conflicting newsreport about wanting Saddam back in power ? Red, do you think we are there as an Oppressor, better yet, have we ever stuck our nose in anywhere to be an oppressor, or has it always been to make what's wrong, right ? That would be the only legitimate reason for the insurrgence, if we were oppressing the Iraqi people.

[west20th]

The left seems to think that Bush wants to make Iraq part of the U.S.,

I don't know of anyone on the left, center or right who believes Bush wants to make Iraq part of the US. What is unclear is what Bush wants. His reasons for invasion were many and ever changing. He has done an awful job of selling the war and his people have done an awful job running the war, that is after the fall of Sadaam's regime. Bush (and staff)'s total incompetence pretty much has killed any support that there was for this war and ruined our chances for success. The blame for this lies solely on Bush and Co. and not the leftist (so called) media or anyone in this country who dares point out what an in-effective leader Bush is. Wasn't it a president who said "the buck stops here"?