Jones Plaza At 600 Louisiana St.

[TheNiche]

It absolutely does. Density and its shiny cousin 'vibrancy' , at their most basic, just mean attracting more bodies downtown. This is Houston, not the Bay Area. You're gonna attract more people with a hot dog cart and beer than cheese and turnips.

OK maybe not clowns. They can be scary.

I get what you're saying, crunch. We'd prefer real, lively urban environments for real, lively people as opposed to...ummm, the alternative: cliched urbanism for politically correct zombies.

Source: Stuff White People Like #5: Farmers Markets

Edited February 3, 2009 by TheNiche

[kylejack]

I get what you're saying, crunch. We'd prefer real, lively urban environments for real, lively people as opposed to...ummm, the alternative: cliched urbanism for politically correct zombies.

Source: Stuff White People Like #5: Farmers Markets

Sausage on a stick is not real lively urban environment. Groceries are. Downtown currently has no place to buy any groceries at all if you don't count the Midtown Randall's and various convenience stores.

Edited February 3, 2009 by kylejack

[TheNiche]

Sausage on a stick is not real lively urban environment. Groceries are. Downtown currently has no place to buy any groceries at all if you don't count the Midtown Randall's and various convenience stores.

So, you're saying that if you don't count the places where downtowners can buy groceries, then there is no place to buy groceries? No kidding.

Maybe you want to qualify that statement a little better.

EDIT: Never mind. I figured it out. Urbanism is all about the availability of high-priced cherry tomatoes. Not sausage.

Edited February 3, 2009 by TheNiche

[kylejack]

So, you're saying that if you don't count the places where downtowners can buy groceries, then there is no place to buy groceries? No kidding.

Maybe you want to qualify that statement a little better.

EDIT: Never mind. I figured it out. Urbanism is all about the availability of high-priced cherry tomatoes. Not sausage.

Midtown is not downtown. It is Midtown. Convenience stores do not sell produce. And I find it interesting that you complain about high prices at farmer's markets when the alternative is the Randall's in Midtown, where they have legalized financial rape.

Sausage on a stick is a concession item meant to be eaten on the street at a festival. A farmer's market (which also sells meat, didn't you know?) sells groceries that you can take home and put in your cupboard.

Edited February 3, 2009 by kylejack

[TheNiche]

This is Houston, not the Bay Area. You're gonna attract more people with a hot dog cart and beer than cheese and turnips.

Hey, what if we had street vendors selling fried alligator on a stick? Not only is it tasty, but its kind of a local food that you won't find just anywhere.

[crunchtastic]

Sausage on a stick is not real lively urban environment. Groceries are. Downtown currently has no place to buy any groceries at all if you don't count the Midtown Randall's and various convenience stores.

On the one hand, Niche understands me perfectly. OTOH, Kylejack, your point about groceries is well taken. It's just that farmers markets here suck. I think what we'd all like to see is a combination of groceries and the like for people who live downtown, and sausages and beer for those of us who merely come downtown for leisure. We can dream, can't we? Vibrancy for all!

And yea, they should bring back Party on the Plaza. When it was in its heyday, I worked nights downtown and it sucked watching all the day-shifters crowding off to the beer booths while I was driving into the garage. They could probably still book Joe King Carrasco. Might fit in the city budget these days.

Hey, what if we had street vendors selling fried alligator on a stick? Not only is it tasty, but its kind of a local food that you won't find just anywhere.

Niche, the locavore?

Nice try. Really.

[TheNiche]

Midtown is not downtown. It is Midtown. Convenience stores do not sell produce.

You were the one that said that we had to exclude that from consideration. Had you not suggested that I might include it in the consideration, I wouldn't have considered it myself because I wouldn't have thought that you would have considered it as something that was there and that needed to be excluded.

Sausage on a stick is a concession item meant to be eaten on the street at a festival. A farmer's market (which also sells meat, didn't you know?) sells groceries that you can take home and put in your cupboard.

There is not going to be a grocery store at Jones Plaza. There might end up being one at One Park Place.

A farmer's market was tried at Market Square and the vendors weren't able to make enough money. So a farmer's market probably isn't going to start up at Jones Plaza, nor should plans for the renovation specifically seek to accomodate one to the exclusion of another more viable activity.

What I don't understand is why groceries and street vendors seem to be considered as mutually exclusive to one another that we have to debate over which is better or more 'urban'. Everything I've ever witnessed from academics or practicing city planners indicates that pedestrians are the holy grail of urbanity, and that it doesn't really matter why they're there except that they're there (presumably so that they can be viewed by planners from the planners' cars).

[kylejack]

A farmer's market was tried at Market Square and the vendors weren't able to make enough money. So a farmer's market probably isn't going to start up at Jones Plaza, nor should plans for the renovation specifically seek to accomodate one to the exclusion of another more viable activity.

That was well prior to the current downtown activity.

What I don't understand is why groceries and street vendors seem to be considered as mutually exclusive to one another that we have to debate over which is better or more 'urban'.

I wasn't really too interested in an either/or debate. You were the one with the chip on your shoulder about farmer's markets. I don't care one way or the other about sausage on a stick.

[ricco67]

I think the occassional street vender would be awesome. The are one ice cream vendor pedals around making a fortune off of the construction workers and conventioneers. I'll buy a cone from hum if I have an ice cream sandwich craving.

One food vendor I have seen a hot dog vendor just across the street from DG on walker. He seems to be doing good business, but I guess they won't let him on the park proper, which sucks.

[TheNiche]

That was well prior to the current downtown activity.

It's only been a few years. What has materially changed that would support a new farmers market? Not much.

I wasn't really too interested in an either/or debate. You were the one with the chip on your shoulder about farmer's markets. I don't care one way or the other about sausage on a stick.

Nope, you were talking about farmers markets before I made fun of them and their clientele.

One food vendor I have seen a hot dog vendor just across the street from DG on walker. He seems to be doing good business, but I guess they won't let him on the park proper, which sucks.

There's probably a noncomp agreement in place between the City and the operators of the two restaurants already there.

[crunchtastic]

I think the occassional street vender would be awesome. The are one ice cream vendor pedals around making a fortune off of the construction workers and conventioneers. I'll buy a cone from hum if I have an ice cream sandwich craving.

One food vendor I have seen a hot dog vendor just across the street from DG on walker. He seems to be doing good business, but I guess they won't let him on the park proper, which sucks.

exactly, not everyone who visits the park is hungry for a $12 burger at The Grove. Which is why there should be a mix. Not overrrun with cart dudes, but options, anyway.

[RedScare]

Left unsaid amongst the farmers market hoopla is the fact that Houston's biggest, best and best known farmers market is a mere 3 miles up Main Street. When the best market is so close by, the only sellers at a downtown market will be those interested in ripping off the downtown dwellers with high priced, lower quality veggies. With the much larger...and open daily...market up the street, the downtown market could never hope to be anything more than a potemkin market. Being located halfway between the real farmers market and the poser one, there is no question which one I would go to.

Plus, it doesn't get any more real and vibrant than the Airline farmers market.

Edited February 3, 2009 by RedScare

[TheNiche]

Plus, it doesn't get any more real and vibrant than the Airline farmers market.

...which is to say that it has no appeal to tourists or high-class downtowners one way or the other.

[RedScare]

...which is to say that it has no appeal to tourists or high-class downtowners one way or the other.

True, and I might add that neither knows what they are missing.

[kylejack]

I go to Canino's but a closer one would be nice.

[crunchtastic]

True, and I might add that neither knows what they are missing.

I have a visual of Red and his dogs, cruising Caninos on Saturday morning for chicks.

Edit: Red's dogs appear to be mighty mighty cute and he is not bad himself, so it isn't a bad visual, but a funny one. The whole shopping for vegetables thing.

Edited February 4, 2009 by crunchtastic

[20thStDad]

Tourists and upscale downtowners won't be drawn in by fruit and veggies. Downtown needs life, culture, and people milling around. That's why I'm thinking Jackson Square. Go there on a random Tuesday night, stuff is happening. I have no idea how to bring that kind of stuff to a place, but a start would be not driving it out.

Sausage on a stick is not the answer. Maybe daiquiri to-go places that sell to anyone over 4 feet tall are.

[kylejack]

Tourists and upscale downtowners won't be drawn in by fruit and veggies.

I concur, and neither are wanted! Bad tourists, I sentence you all to 10 years hard tourist labor in Old Town Spring and suburban outlet malls!

[Porchman]

I have a visual of Red and his dogs, cruising Caninos on Saturday morning for chicks.

Edit: Red's dogs appear to be mighty mighty cute and he is not bad himself, so it isn't a bad visual, but a funny one. The whole shopping for vegetables thing.

I bet Red eats celery. Freshness being a factor...maybe not. I think the pups would be seriously stressed at Canino's. If I go there at prime time, it's stressful for me.

BACK ON TOPIC Y'ALL: I have been digesting the expense of fixing the 2001 screw-up on Jones Plaza. It seems stupid after only 6 years of living with this mistake. On the other hand, people trade cars and wives much sooner, so who am I to judge?

The square is not congenial (sorry for that particular adjective, but it's not...congenial). It needs to be flattened again. When one stands, enjoying a cocktail (just anyone, really!), at the front on Jones Hall, you should enjoy the psychadelic, modern castle that houses the Alley. Besides, I always thought there was a decompositionist aspect of watching skateboarders during a symphony break.

Also, if it is reconstructed, it creates a great works project. And on that point, I give the floor to my right honourable friend, TJones

[kylejack]

Skateboarders are prohibited in the Plaza, and while surely you may have seen some, its fairly strictly enforced.

[Porchman]

Skateboarders are prohibited in the Plaza, and while surely you may have seen some, its fairly strictly enforced.

yeah..now

[RedScare]

I have a visual of Red and his dogs, cruising Caninos on Saturday morning for chicks.

Edit: Red's dogs appear to be mighty mighty cute and he is not bad himself, so it isn't a bad visual, but a funny one. The whole shopping for vegetables thing.

I'm all about the cucumbers.

Actually, the visual of trying to control those two hellions while carrying my veggies is a bit amusing, but I fly solo at Canino's.

As for Market Square, what it needs is a redesign to level it out, replace some of the grass(horrors!) with paving stone, maybe granite or equivalent, add some tables and benches under the trees to give it more of a European square look. With the buildings surrounding it (except the garage), it would be a cool square. I bet something nice would go up on the south side before long as well.

[Porchman]

I'm all about the cucumbers.

So, if you hate hyperboles, and are feelin' a bit kinky....

[RedScare]

So, if you hate hyperboles, and are feelin' a bit kinky....

I would make a witty comeback, but lately, every attempt at humor or sarcasm has been frowned upon by the moderating staff. So, all I can do is think about the witty/sarcastic response I would have made if humor and sarcasm were allowed on the forum.*

*Of course, that was on a thread about the economy, and as everyone knows, the economy is no laughing matter. Some people have even lost their jobs due to the economy. No, it's true! People have actually lost their jobs due to the poor economy! However, this thread is about Jones Plaza, and to my knowledge, no one has lost their job due to Jones Plaza...oh, except for Jordy Tollet...but, that might have been due to his drinking, or maybe his red patent leather shoes, or perhaps because Bill White doesn't like red patent leather shoes, so you really can't say that Jordy Tollet lost his job due to Jones Plaza. Well, you can say that, but I won't.

[Subdude]

I want local interaction, not tourism. Farmer's market is better than festival for that.

You want to interact with farmers? I'll pass.

[skyphen]

The comment about the showerheads for Jones Plaza was right on point! That's exactly what it reminds me of.

sigh, I suspect you're right. But when it comes to urban 'vibrancy' don't we really mean 'more people' ? 100 people in a square eating sausage on a stick and watching clowns make animal balloon looks busier, and therefore better (especially in brochure photographs) than 10 people buying locally grown micro greens and cutely packaged cheese.

I cannot give up on my downscale, downtown food cart dream.

I like this vision, and the beggar musicians, Jackson Square, all of it. That's exactly what we need. Houston has so many great artists and talented people. The city is really squandering an opportunity, missing the boat on not exposing them to a wider audience, although it has gotten better at doing so over the past few years. Disco Green has been a big step in the right direction as far as that goes.

Is there a plan to make downtown upscale? I hope not. Downtown should be for the people, all people. "Downtown" should not be "Uptown."

[editor]

Why not just add a bunch of showerheads on Jones Plaza? It would complete the picture.

[musicman]

I like this vision, and the beggar musicians, Jackson Square, all of it. That's exactly what we need. Houston has so many great artists and talented people.

houston already has this. go to woodridge and 45south. there's an elderly man who takes the bus down from eastwood with his violin and over-the-shoulder amp and plays in the intersection.

[SilverJK]

Party in the plaza...

If you want to party in the plaza, mark March 21st on your calendar. There is going to be a Brazilian festival in the plaza that day.

link for more info

www.houstonbrazilianfest.org

Edited February 4, 2009 by SilverJK

[skyphen]

houston already has this. go to woodridge and 45south. there's an elderly man who takes the bus down from eastwood with his violin and over-the-shoulder amp and plays in the intersection.

Is there more than just a man?