Downtown Restaurant And Bar Market

[editor]

I had the ham/egg/Gruyere/leafing things bagel at Fifth Vessel this morning.  Can recommend.

[wilcal]

Niko Niko's in Market Square Park is closing 

[rechlin]

I found this out the hard way about 9 hours ago.  Wish I'd checked here first!  I hadn't been in a few months so I thought I'd catch lunch here today.  Oh well!

[hbg.50]

On 11/29/2023 at 12:33 PM, wilcal said:

Niko Niko's in Market Square Park is closing 

Dang!  This is bad news.  Hope something similar replaces.

[j_cuevas713]

Yeah this isn't good news. I hope they fill the spot soon. 

[editor]

That's sad.  I loved getting a chicken pita sandwich there on lunch hour and just watching the world go by.  

I wonder if they couldn't make enough money, or if their lease wasn't renewed.  Ordinarily for places downtown, I assume that the foot traffic wasn't enough, but it's always seemed to have customers.   And I imagine it gets mobbed with all of the events that happen at Market Square these days.  Maybe it didn't have the surge capacity to capitalize on those rushes.  Sad, either way.

On a related Market Square note, on Friday there was a half-dozen men working with concrete on the fountain next to Niko Niko's, so maybe that project is nearing completion.

[editor]

I saw this posted on the front door of Fifth Vessel last week.  Interesting.

 

I'm always surprised that people feel unsafe downtown.  Just because someone asks you for money doesn't mean it's not safe.  It means that there are poor people in the world.  When I see an item in the newspaper about a murder, it's usually  in Conroe or San Jacinto County.  It's almost never downtown.

There was a guy on the train a couple of days ago ranting about "Man, downtown is hard. It's so hard. It'll eat you up.  It's just not safe without a gun."  I wanted to say to him, "Dude, calm down.  It's Houston.  It's not Atlanta.  It's not Chicago.  It's not that bad.  Get a grip."

 

[jhjones74]

8 minutes ago, editor said:

I'm always surprised that people feel unsafe downtown.  Just because someone asks you for money doesn't mean it's not safe.  It means that there are poor people in the world.  When I see an item in the newspaper about a murder, it's usually  in Conroe or San Jacinto County.  It's almost never downtown.

There was a guy on the train a couple of days ago ranting about "Man, downtown is hard. It's so hard. It'll eat you up.  It's just not safe without a gun."  I wanted to say to him, "Dude, calm down.  It's Houston.  It's not Atlanta.  It's not Chicago.  It's not that bad.  Get a grip."

I always find it funny when people try to give Houston more street cred than it deserves. Unfortunately though I have to say, at least anecdotally I feel like downtown has regressed some the last 6 months. I'm still proud to call it home and have no plans to leave, but it's not the homeless I'm ever worried about. It's the seedier crowd that's making their way into downtown now, which is new to me having lived here for the last ~5 years. Not sure if it's a function of the turnover/newer bars, but either way the late night crowd downtown has a much higher desire for fighting and causing trouble than I've seen before. Case in point the guy shot and killed two weeks ago by Phoenicia. I don't walk around late downtown as much as I used to, but I had a situation a few weeks ago with two drunk guys looking to just fight randomly that could have gotten really ugly.

Obviously this underbelly will be present in any city, particularly around bars/nightlife - I think though to entirely dismiss crime as an issue (particularly when it comes to public perception) in downtown or anywhere isn't fair

[editor]

3 hours ago, jhjones74 said:

I always find it funny when people try to give Houston more street cred than it deserves. Unfortunately though I have to say, at least anecdotally I feel like downtown has regressed some the last 6 months. I'm still proud to call it home and have no plans to leave, but it's not the homeless I'm ever worried about. It's the seedier crowd that's making their way into downtown now, which is new to me having lived here for the last ~5 years. Not sure if it's a function of the turnover/newer bars, but either way the late night crowd downtown has a much higher desire for fighting and causing trouble than I've seen before. Case in point the guy shot and killed two weeks ago by Phoenicia. I don't walk around late downtown as much as I used to, but I had a situation a few weeks ago with two drunk guys looking to just fight randomly that could have gotten really ugly.

Obviously this underbelly will be present in any city, particularly around bars/nightlife - I think though to entirely dismiss crime as an issue (particularly when it comes to public perception) in downtown or anywhere isn't fair

You're right — downtown is worse today than it was six months ago.  But it's better than it was when I first moved downtown in 1999.  

I think the problem is three-fold:

1. There are fewer "normal" people downtown (see #2).  When there's lots of regular people around, the drug addicts and vagrants don't stand out as much.  But that's true in pretty much every city I've re-visited in the last five years.  Perhaps if there was more for regular people to do downtown, then people would come out of their apartments in the sky and give the neighborhood a more vibrant feel.  And there are more and more opportunities to do so, like the occasional Discovery Green night market, and the innumerable events at Market Square Park.  But it has to happen all over downtown, and not just in two locations.  
2. There's a lot of street drugs available downtown, especially in the area of Rusk and Main.  When I first moved downtown again a few years ago, I was approached a couple of times by dealers who look exactly like the stereotype you'd expect from watching TV crime dramas.  But lately I've seen a pair of 20-something preppy-looking white kids dealing.  They walk the streets in a regular pattern.  One has a backpack, and the other approaches druggies one at a time asking if they need a refill, or a top-up, or whatever they called it.  They act very corporate.  It's weird.
3. Metro seems to have reduced its policing of the trains.  There are often fare inspectors standing on the platforms, but they hardly ever get on the trains anymore, I suspect because so many of the fare machines are broken and they can't legitimately write a ticket to someone who got on at a stop with a broken machine.  Just yesterday I had a fare inspector stop me from scanning my Q card because the machine was broken, and he told me to just get on like everyone else.  And I don't think I've seen an actual Metro police officer on a train in over a year.   This past Friday a guy was having a seizure in the first car of the train, and someone pushed the emergency button.  When the train driver opened his door and asked what was going on, someone told him not to worry about it, the guy was just overdosing.  So the driver shrugged his shoulders and went back to driving the train.  The train shouldn't have moved until an ambulance arrived.  Maybe the driver called for one to meet him up ahead somewhere, but I stayed on the train for seven more stops, and no help arrived for the guy writhing on the floor just a dozen feet from the train driver.

 

 

[jhjones74]

Not sure if this was mentioned anywhere, but the Common Bond in understory is closed from what I can see. It's listed as permanently closed on google, though I can't find any announcement on this. 

That was a place I always wished would stay open on the weekends. From what I could see, the bakery was always pretty busy during the week days. Curious if the brasserie concept has something to do with them closing - I never saw or heard of anybody really going there. Without knowing all the details, this seems to unfortunately suggest that despite the incremental population that's moved in downtown, even in probably the busiest food hall the support isn't there to make a concept like this work. Though to be fair they never seemed to make an attempt to cater to anything other than the lunch/business crowd

[j_cuevas713]

Yeah I

On 12/3/2023 at 2:50 PM, editor said:

You're right — downtown is worse today than it was six months ago.  But it's better than it was when I first moved downtown in 1999.  

I think the problem is three-fold:

1. There are fewer "normal" people downtown (see #2).  When there's lots of regular people around, the drug addicts and vagrants don't stand out as much.  But that's true in pretty much every city I've re-visited in the last five years.  Perhaps if there was more for regular people to do downtown, then people would come out of their apartments in the sky and give the neighborhood a more vibrant feel.  And there are more and more opportunities to do so, like the occasional Discovery Green night market, and the innumerable events at Market Square Park.  But it has to happen all over downtown, and not just in two locations.  
2. There's a lot of street drugs available downtown, especially in the area of Rusk and Main.  When I first moved downtown again a few years ago, I was approached a couple of times by dealers who look exactly like the stereotype you'd expect from watching TV crime dramas.  But lately I've seen a pair of 20-something preppy-looking white kids dealing.  They walk the streets in a regular pattern.  One has a backpack, and the other approaches druggies one at a time asking if they need a refill, or a top-up, or whatever they called it.  They act very corporate.  It's weird.
3. Metro seems to have reduced its policing of the trains.  There are often fare inspectors standing on the platforms, but they hardly ever get on the trains anymore, I suspect because so many of the fare machines are broken and they can't legitimately write a ticket to someone who got on at a stop with a broken machine.  Just yesterday I had a fare inspector stop me from scanning my Q card because the machine was broken, and he told me to just get on like everyone else.  And I don't think I've seen an actual Metro police officer on a train in over a year.   This past Friday a guy was having a seizure in the first car of the train, and someone pushed the emergency button.  When the train driver opened his door and asked what was going on, someone told him not to worry about it, the guy was just overdosing.  So the driver shrugged his shoulders and went back to driving the train.  The train shouldn't have moved until an ambulance arrived.  Maybe the driver called for one to meet him up ahead somewhere, but I stayed on the train for seven more stops, and no help arrived for the guy writhing on the floor just a dozen feet from the train driver.

 

 

Yeah Metro is a joke. While I'm excited about some of the transit projects in the future, the mismanagement of the agency time and time again is beyond absurd at this point. I always stay alert on the train. 

[wilcal]

17 hours ago, jhjones74 said:

Not sure if this was mentioned anywhere, but the Common Bond in understory is closed from what I can see. It's listed as permanently closed on google, though I can't find any announcement on this. 

That was a place I always wished would stay open on the weekends. From what I could see, the bakery was always pretty busy during the week days. Curious if the brasserie concept has something to do with them closing - I never saw or heard of anybody really going there. Without knowing all the details, this seems to unfortunately suggest that despite the incremental population that's moved in downtown, even in probably the busiest food hall the support isn't there to make a concept like this work. Though to be fair they never seemed to make an attempt to cater to anything other than the lunch/business crowd

Well that is sad. I probably went every 2-3 months and thought it provided some good value compared to some of the other restaurants downtown. 

I think the places in the tunnels are getting crushed, too. I think it was Downtown District that put out a survey and average weekday occupancy is like 60-65%. Has to be a fraction of that on Mondays and Fridays. 

[TacoDog]

On 12/3/2023 at 10:35 AM, editor said:

I saw this posted on the front door of Fifth Vessel last week.  Interesting.

 

I'm always surprised that people feel unsafe downtown.  Just because someone asks you for money doesn't mean it's not safe.  It means that there are poor people in the world.  When I see an item in the newspaper about a murder, it's usually  in Conroe or San Jacinto County.  It's almost never downtown.

There was a guy on the train a couple of days ago ranting about "Man, downtown is hard. It's so hard. It'll eat you up.  It's just not safe without a gun."  I wanted to say to him, "Dude, calm down.  It's Houston.  It's not Atlanta.  It's not Chicago.  It's not that bad.  Get a grip."

 

 

Day 6 closes at 6 and Chipotle at 8, I don't know if those are good places to wait for a night train.

[Texasota]

I think Common Bond clearly overexpanded, but this one is a shame because this location was unique. I really think if they moved to better hours/open on the weekends they could have done better. 

[j_cuevas713]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:19 AM, Texasota said:

I think Common Bond clearly overexpanded, but this one is a shame because this location was unique. I really think if they moved to better hours/open on the weekends they could have done better. 

The programming by Understory could be better to attract more people

Edited December 6, 2023 by j_cuevas713

[jhjones74]

On 12/5/2023 at 8:00 AM, wilcal said:

I think the places in the tunnels are getting crushed, too. I think it was Downtown District that put out a survey and average weekday occupancy is like 60-65%. Has to be a fraction of that on Mondays and Fridays. 

This has been ongoing now for several years since COVID. I wonder what lease terms are like for many of these vendors. If Niko Niko's and Common Bond are any indication, there could be more chain businesses that decide to exit downtown once their leases are up. Who would blame them? This has to be something the folks at central Houston are paying attention to. I'm not totally sure what can be done though. Programming helps, but doesn't really change hearts and minds to get people to come to downtown in the first place

[BEES?!]

That said, you have POST which appears to be doing very well. There’s been some turnover, but honestly nothing I’d consider unusual for the cutthroat world of F&B. But they are absolutely packed to the gills with programming (they blow up my inbox all the time with new events and stuff, haha) and offer something pretty unique that draw a lot of people in from all over.  

They also appear to market very aggressively (I went to their Christmas artisan market last week and there were even highway signs advertising it. The whole place was really busy).  I wonder if these other places can’t learn a thing or two from Lovett on this one. 
 

The only thing I’d say POST has struggled with is office vacancy. (It’s over 50% IIRC) But they’re converting some of that to restaurant space, which may signal that they’re willing to   adapt and be flexible when their plans may not have gone as envisioned. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by BEES?!

[jhjones74]

21 minutes ago, BEES?! said:

That said, you have POST which appears to be doing very well. There’s been some turnover, but honestly nothing I’d consider unusual for the cutthroat world of F&B. But they are absolutely packed to the gills with programming (they blow up my inbox all the time with new events and stuff, haha) and offer something pretty unique that draw a lot of people in from all over.  

They also appear to market very aggressively (I went to their Christmas artisan market last week and there were even highway signs advertising it. The whole place was really busy).  I wonder if these other places can’t learn a thing or two from Lovett on this one. 
 

The only thing I’d say POST has struggled with is office vacancy. (It’s over 50% IIRC) But they’re converting some of that to restaurant space, which may signal that they’re willing to   adapt and be flexible when their plans may not have gone as envisioned. 

The unfortunate difference between Post and any other food hall downtown? Ample, easy parking. 99% of people who go to any of these places will drive, and Houstonians have gotten way too comfortable with developments catering to their cars to imagine any parking experience that isn’t seamless. While the majority of us on HAIF complain about surface lots, broader Houston almost becomes uncomfortable without them. I write this as I’m looking at Post’s majority vacant parking lot that serves no purpose during non-peak hours

[Texasota]

Eh, Bravery is also doing fine. Both Post and Bravery have a higher quality tenant list *and* Post is distinctive enough to serve as its own draw. 

There's a ton of parking so people use it, but I actually don't think that's really the reason it's overall doing well.

[BEES?!]

I’m curious to know how Lyric is doing, speaking of food halls. I always like the way they do their lighting displays. It seems they’ve have at least some turnover, but I don’t know how many of their current concepts are original from when they first opened. Definitely it has a different atmosphere and vibe compared to POST, and the two are fairly close, distance-wise. 

[jhjones74]

26 minutes ago, BEES?! said:

I’m curious to know how Lyric is doing, speaking of food halls. I always like the way they do their lighting displays. It seems they’ve have at least some turnover, but I don’t know how many of their current concepts are original from when they first opened. Definitely it has a different atmosphere and vibe compared to POST, and the two are fairly close, distance-wise. 

I think overall it's doing okay. I go here at least once or twice a week for lunch. Has definitely been some turnover - one of the stalls, formerly a good bbq spot, has been sitting empty now for probably a month. In general the place is usually about half full during peak lunch hours. This is probably one of the few food halls besides Post though that actually sees decent business during the evenings, with people eating here before shows. That said, it's not nearly as busy, even on a percentage basis, as Post.

 

1 hour ago, Texasota said:

Eh, Bravery is also doing fine. Both Post and Bravery have a higher quality tenant list *and* Post is distinctive enough to serve as its own draw. 

There's a ton of parking so people use it, but I actually don't think that's really the reason it's overall doing well.

Bravery, particularly Kokoro, always has a great lunch crowd during the weeks. Kokoro and Drunken Pho are both top notch. Evenings are hit or miss though. I was there right before one of the ALCS games this year and there was like two other couples. I honestly don't know how the oyster place has remained in business, I've never seen a single person eating there. Obviously turnover too with the Thai restaurant recently replacing the Mexican restaurant that was previously a steak/sandwich place. When there were headlines on the crowdfunding campaign for Bravery defaulting last year, I wasn't surprised. Hines will probably find a way to always keep this place open though

[editor]

Post and Finn Hall are very different audiences.

Finn Hall is for office workers and tourists.  And I'm surprised how many people go in there on Saturdays.  It's not "busy" by any stretch of the imagination, but my observation has been that there's a lot more foot traffic than I would have expected.

The Post is for urban wannabes who want to cosplay cosmopolitan urbanity from the sanitized safety of a rooftop, across a moat, and a half-mile away from the downtown core.  It's for the people who pull their kids nearer to them when they walk past someone sleeping on the sidewalk.  A not-quite-Disneyfied version of what it's like to be downtown.

That said, Post has the advantage over Finn Hall for a few reasons:

- The Post's concert venue.  People who don't ordinarily go downtown won't make the trip just for a food court.  But they will go there for a concert.  Then once they've seen the place, know what to expect, and most importantly know how to get there, they will return for the food court.

- Post's parking situation is a lot less scary for people used to parking at Target and Kohl's, instead of inside parking garages. Plus they don't have to deal with one-way streets, which make people from outside Beltway 8 fudge their Huggies.

- The Post has a ton of programming.  There is something going on at least weekly, and sometimes it verges on daily.  The Post has done a great job with bringing in reasons to visit the Post beyond the food court.  

- The Post seems to have a proper PR company, or a PR person on staff.  it gets lots of attention in print and TV, and seems to be media-friendly.  Finn Hall seems to think having an Instagram account is all that's needed for success.  It couldn't be more wrong.  Coca-Cola and McDonald's don't spend millions of dollars on advertising and PR because it doesn't work.  I like Finn Hall, but when it comes to self-promotion, it's seriously amateur hour over there.  I live a block away from Finn Hall, and the only way I find out that anything is happening there is when I see it mentioned in the Chronicle a few weeks later.  But I see what feels like 80% of what's happening at the Post.  

Both could do better, but Finn Hall has a lot of catching up to do.  It looks like amateur hour over there.  Even some of the crappy bars down the street had big Taylor Swift events after the concert, enticing people to ride the train to after parties.  Finn Hall was dark.  There's no imagination over there.  And what's bad for Finn Hall is bad for Finn Hall's eateries, and bad for the neighborhood.

 

[hbg.50]

I had family in from out of town this week and I took them to Post Houston on Wednesday around 1:30.  We didn’t go to the food court side because I wanted to take them to Kim Son.  The rooftop garden was nice and I imagine it’s a great place to go at night with all the lights.  It was not crowded at all .  I don’t know where Finn Hall is.  I plan on visiting the Lyric at some point before a show.

[asubrt]

On 12/7/2023 at 3:30 PM, BEES?! said:

I’m curious to know how Lyric is doing, speaking of food halls. I always like the way they do their lighting displays. It seems they’ve have at least some turnover, but I don’t know how many of their current concepts are original from when they first opened. Definitely it has a different atmosphere and vibe compared to POST, and the two are fairly close, distance-wise. 

Have been there twice now on off-peak hours, once on a Sunday afternoon before the opera matinee, and this past Thursday night before the Akon concert. Both times there were slightly more people than I expected, but still not crowded by any means. I imagine it gets much busier at lunch time on weekdays. This week there were a couple of vacant stalls, and the place I wanted to try (1929 Po Bo Kitchen) had already closed by 6:30 PM, even though Lyric Market is technically open until 10 PM on Thursdays. That being said, the waffle place was magnificent.

[asubrt]

6 hours ago, editor said:

The Post is for urban wannabes who want to cosplay cosmopolitan urbanity from the sanitized safety of a rooftop, across a moat, and a half-mile away from the downtown core.  It's for the people who pull their kids nearer to them when they walk past someone sleeping on the sidewalk.  A not-quite-Disneyfied version of what it's like to be downtown.

- Post's parking situation is a lot less scary for people used to parking at Target and Kohl's, instead of inside parking garages. Plus they don't have to deal with one-way streets, which make people from outside Beltway 8 fudge their Huggies.

Incredibly condescending points aside, Post's biggest strength is that it actually has some really good food spots that you can't find anywhere else. Andes Cafe, Chòpnblok, and Golfstrømmen are all phenomenal, destination-worthy restaurants. Not to mention multiple other strong concepts with enough variety to cater to nearly any taste. I find Post is an awesome spot to meet up with folks from across the Houston area in a central location where everyone can get something they enjoy.

[editor]

11 hours ago, asubrt said:

Incredibly condescending points aside, Post's biggest strength is that it actually has some really good food spots that you can't find anywhere else. Andes Cafe, Chòpnblok, and Golfstrømmen are all phenomenal, destination-worthy restaurants. Not to mention multiple other strong concepts with enough variety to cater to nearly any taste. I find Post is an awesome spot to meet up with folks from across the Houston area in a central location where everyone can get something they enjoy.

I'll give you Goldstrømmen.  But Andes Café's virtue is that it brings together the flavors from a dozen other more regionalized restaurants across Houston in one menu.  Does that count as a strong "concept?"  I'm not sure. I guess it saves on gas driving all over town.

I haven't tried Chòpnblọk yet, but it's described as "West African fusion."  Great, but when I see "fusion" in a restaurant description I think "we've run out of ideas."  It'll be nice when Houston builds up a base of (better distributed) west African restaurants first so that we can taste and understand the basics before having it go all tex-mess.  Or if the intent of this "fusion" is to make west African food more palatable to Western tastes to give us an introduction to the cuisine, then they should be more helpful.  Writing "Ghanian style" or "Liberian style"  on a menu doesn't tell me anything.  How am I supposed to choose between the two?  It's a food court. If I'm confused, I'll just turn around and there's a dozen other options from other vendors right in front of me.

[editor]

A couple of weeks ago, Victory (711 Main) added branding to the front door, and occasionally puts a sandwich board on the sidewalk.  

While I don't understand what's happening here (it's supposed to be "elevated comfort food," but most of the reviews talk about hookas), I hope it does better than the previous occupants of this space.  It's been through at least three, maybe four different tenants in the last 2½ years.

[mkultra25]

8 hours ago, editor said:

Great, but when I see "fusion" in a restaurant description I think "we've run out of ideas."

"Fusion" used in a restaurant context usually shares at least one trait with artificially-induced nuclear fusion - lots of hype, but nowhere near ready for prime time.

[jhjones74]

Taste Kitchen + Bar on Main Street had the fifth most health code violations from January to October of this year of any restaurant in Houston, as reported by the Chronicle. This was a problem also documented at their previous midtown location.

Interestingly the number of inspections at Taste during this period was higher than any other restaurant, which I would guess could have something to do with previous issues, as well as the sour history Don Bowie has with state and local authorities. Quite honestly, every time I walk by this place knowing its history, I'm confused how they're even allowed to remain open given Bowie's past legal issues and back taxes owed. I'm happy the space is no longer vacant, but how this place remains busy and retains a loyal customer base in light of every anecdote and story I've heard about Bowie is shocking to me. I have yet to try Taste, though I really don't have much desire to at this point

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/projects/2023/houston-restaurants-violations-map/

[BEES?!]

@asubrt Those are definitely my favorite three at POST. I am really excited to see Golfstrommen do its buildout on the rooftop. My husband has tried every single restaurant at POST (not me, though...I'm not quite so adventurous) and these are his three favorites, too.

@editor You should give Chòpnblọk  a try! I really like them a lot, but I'm all-in on things like curries and the like. I think they want to be a very casual introduction to West African fare, at least that's been my impression of them. They were doing samples for a while there, I'm not sure if they still do. It's how they got me hooked on it. :)