A Town Square For Houston

[Subdude]

Personal definition:

1. Open space of which a large proportion is hard scape (Jones Plaza for example), but greenscapes are not ruled out.

2. Variety of points of interest such as statues, fountains, busts, water features, even concert stages and stands.

3. Strong/easy pedestrian access. Great squares have closed off lanes of traffic, or traffic in just one direction ( I think those in Savannah you can only made right turns around them.

4. Strong interaction with the surrounding buildings. A nice old library or museum with massive steps falling out into the square where people sit to read or have a snack; store fronts, cafes with sidewalks tables... stuff like that instead on blank walls like around discovery green or Jones Plaza.

Discovery green has the elements of a great park but doesn't have the square feeling.

Market Square has way too much traffic and no real big draw like Disco Green.

Main Street square has big draws, some building attraction, but is still too traffic heavy and too narrow to feel like you are in a square. It still feels like side walk.

This to me is a square not a park:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Trafalgar_Square%2C_London_2_-_Jun_2009.jpg

http://www.fosterandpartners.com/m/projects/trafalgar-square-redevelopment/images.php?id=1046

 

I thought this was a great list of the physical components of a square, but at the same time I think that perhaps there is a bit of talking past each other about this topic because there squares can serve different purposes for a city.  There should be some sort of taxonomy of squares. 

 

On the one hand there are small squares that are effectively local parks; nice places for people to hang out.  Market Square fits the bill, as would Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia for instance.  Something like this is best served by adjacent residential, a couple of good coffee shops, and maybe a small fountain. 

 

On the other side there is the large central civic plaza.  This is often considered the historic or symbolic heart of the city, and is often adjacent to major municipal landmarks such as a museum, main cathedral etc.  Examples that spring to mind are Trafalgar Square, Tienanmen Square, the zocalo in Mexico City etc.  These may often have major monuments and fountains, but are more often paved than the first set.  They draw a lot of tourists and artists as well as locals killing time.  The way I think of these are that these are the places where protesters instinctively go to start the Revolution.

 

To me Houston has room and desire for the first type.  Again, Market Square is a great example, and I think others could be developed.  On the other hand, I can't see squares of the latter type being successful.  It just doesn't seem that Houston or America has a culture in which these kind of central gathering spaces make sense.  

 

All that said,  Discovery Green in effect serves as a bit of a hybrid of the two.  It is central to the city, not a neighborhood, but it is more park-like than paved.  It is kind of a decent example for Houston.

[HoustonIsHome]

You don't think the second type of square would work?

The reason why I stress the hard scape version so much is for the very reason you mention. The haters say Houston is ugly, but I think its very beautiful. It is so green. And because we already have so many trees and parks downtown, I though a square works be a welcomed change.

I dunno I think it would work.

[IronTiger]

So, the Main Street Square isn't what you had in mind? Or Allen's Landing? Or Discovery Green?

All of those fit the category you want some way or another. A town square is often found in small towns and cities with small town atmospheres. Houston, unfortunately, cannot gain back the "small town atmosphere" and once a city loses that, they can never get it back.

[HoustonIsHome]

Why do people keep repeat that silly bs that squares are for small towns.

NEW YORK

PHILADELPHIA

SAN FRANCISCO

DC

LONDON

BERLIN

PARIS

ROME.....

All have squares.

Get that silly talk out of your head. Squares are among the most memorable tourist spots in big cities. Many tourist flock to Trafalgar Square in London, ir Union Square in SF, Times square in NY, Jackson Square in NOLA, etc etc

Many cities see the benefit of these tourist spots and are actively repackaging their cities with them. Two names of the top of my head are Dallas and Cleveland. Both far from being considered small towns.

Small town, *shakes head*

[shasta]

Why do people keep repeat that silly bs that squares are for small towns.

NEW YORK

PHILADELPHIA

SAN FRANCISCO

DC

LONDON

BERLIN

PARIS

ROME.....

All have squares.

Get that silly talk out of your head. Squares are among the most memorable tourist spots in big cities. Many tourist flock to Trafalgar Square in London, ir Union Square in SF, Times square in NY, Jackson Square in NOLA, etc etc

Many cities see the benefit of these tourist spots and are actively repackaging their cities with them. Two names of the top of my head are Dallas and Cleveland. Both far from being considered small towns.

Small town, *shakes head*

 

Isn't Market Square a "Square"...and an historic one at that? It used to be Capital Square back when Houston was the capital of the Republic of Texas.

[IronTiger]

Times Square isn't exactly a "town square", you know...

[kylejack]

Wait a second, you're holding up Jackson Square as a good square, yet it has a fairly high percentage of green space to hard space. Now I'm wondering again what's wrong with Discovery Green. Your contention that it doesn't interact with its environment is wrong. People will buy charcuterie in Phoenicia and eat it in the park. Hotel and convention visitors make great use of the park. Parking has been hidden underneath the park so as not to have an annoying parking lot blight. Restaurants are located inside the park itself. It is well integrated.

[HoustonIsHome]

Isn't Market Square a "Square"...and an historic one at that? It used to be Capital Square back when Houston was the capital of the Republic of Texas.

 

Yes, I already said both MS and DG qualify in the general sense. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to get a public space that fits in the narrower definition that I gave.

 

Times Square isn't exactly a "town square", you know...

 times square is a square for my purposes. It fits. 

Wait a second, you're holding up Jackson Square as a good square, yet it has a fairly high percentage of green space to hard space. Now I'm wondering again what's wrong with Discovery Green. Your contention that it doesn't interact with its environment is wrong. People will buy charcuterie in Phoenicia and eat it in the park. Hotel and convention visitors make great use of the park. Parking has been hidden underneath the park so as not to have an annoying parking lot blight. Restaurants are located inside the park itself. It is well integrated.

I knew I would catch flack for Jackson but I listed it more for the memorable factor.

Again, you guys are making it sound like I'm hating on Disco Green and MS. Pardon the shouting but: I THINK THAT THOSE TWO PARKS ARE THE BEST THING THAT HAPPENED TO DOWNTOWN SINCE THE RAIL.

now that we got that behind us, I just think that every open space shouldn't Be the same. All I'm looking for is variety.

I never said that DG doesn't interact with its surroundings, I said the surrounding interaction is poor. As in blank walls on most sides.

I also never said that visitors don't make good use of the park. What I said is that neighboring buildings should be seen as extentions of the park like la carafe, warrens etc are just as Market Square as the park itself.

Don't fight it, they may fit your definition of a square, but Im just looking for something different. Imagine the look of Main street square, with the interaction of Market square but on all sides, then throw in the amenities and crowds of discovery green and you will get what I am looking for.

[arche_757]

 ...I never said that DG doesn't interact with its surroundings, I said the surrounding interaction is poor. As in blank walls on most sides...

 

Agreed.  Discovery Green is greater than the "neighborhood" it is located in.  And I realize that the area around it is still growing/changing and that with more residential and hotel nearby it will become an even more heavily used public space, but that area is not built out to the extent it should be yet.  Personally, I'll always see the immediate proximity to the convention center as a failing of the city planners.  A shame there isn't at least a city block of developable land between the GRB and DG.

 

Jackson Square works for me as a "town square" in fact that's a great example.

 

[H-Town Man]

Its not arcane. Why would you have tons if parking in a square?

I swear some of you act like you have never left Texas.

The point of the town square is for the pedestrian outdoors experience. Unlike life centers where you drive from store to store.

There is a name for squares with parking. It's called a parking lot, and downtown has dozens of those.

Enrich your lives. Take a trip. Visit other cities, feel how welcoming these tiwn squares are and how they enrich the memory of your visit.

Houston s number one attraction is the ugly AF Galleria Mall which is.... a mall. His memorable. I went to the 4th largest city in the US last week. It was fun. We went to the mall. Wow.

Llol (literally laughing out loud)

[IronTiger]

times square is a square for my purposes. It fits.

It's essentially a neighborhood with lots of touristy, mall-like attractions. And when they closed off part of Broadway, the progression is complete!

Seriously, I can't see what you would want between Discovery Green and GREENSTREET, given that your examples are nothing alike.

[HoustonIsHome]

Agreed. Discovery GrTHER is greater than the "neighborhood" it is located in. And I realize that the area around it is still growing/changing and that with more residential and hotel nearby it will become an even more heavily used public space, but that area is not built out to the extent it should be yet. Personally, I'll always see the immediate proximity to the convention center as a failing of the city planners. A shame there isn't at least a city block of developable land between the GRB and DG.

Jackson Square works for me as a "town square" in fact that's a great example.

yes, Disco Green is better than its surroundings, but it is doing its of uplifting the area.

And I agree with the GRB comment. Maybe the upgrades will help.

Llol (literally laughing out loud)

lol, laughing at my typos?

It's essentially a neighborhood with lots of touristy, mall-like attractions. And when they closed off part of Broadway, the progression is complete!Seriously, I can't see what you would want between Discovery Green and GREENSTREET, given that your examples are nothing alike.

not sure what you are concerned about.

Anyway greenstreet isn't exactly wrapping around the park. you guys are coming up with every excuse to make what isnt into what is. kinda like a mom with an ugly kid that she alone thinks is cute, but she tries hard to convince everyone. FACE IT, THERE IS LITTLE INTERACTION WITH THE PARK.

Trust me, I boost Houston more than anyone wise. Discovery Green is a gem in my eyes. But it doesn't function as a square.

Next time you are there walk the circumference of the park and take pics of how many windows you can see through. Take note of how many stairs open down into the park. Take specific note of how easy it is to get from the park to the business across. Take note of the business with the park name attached to it. As in Macys at Discovery Green, or pizza on the green. As far as I know park place is the only related business and they could have done more to interact with the park.

[HoustonIsHome]

Here are two modern examples of town squares.

Notice how the businesses welcome park patrons. Notice how you can stand in the park and see directly into the businesses. Notice store fronts line the park. Notice how narrow the streets are and how low traffic they are. Notice how businesses pour out into the park so that the park and the businesses are one. Vendors meld the park into the surroundings. Business addresses are add follows: 1001 town square.

Compare them to the interaction seen in the DG pic. The buildings around seen to stand aloof. They are all in their own work. Blank walls all around as if to say stay away.

[Texasota]

Once again, you're describing Market Square. Once the residential tower in the vacant lot to the northwest is filled in particular.

 

I just hope the International tower gets built or that block gets sold to someone interested in actually doing something with it (preferably not an office tower honestly.)

[HoustonIsHome]

Once again, you're describing Market Square. Once the residential tower in the vacant lot to the northwest is filled in particular.

I just hope the International tower gets built or that block gets sold to someone interested in actually doing something with it (preferably not an office tower honestly.)

Read back to my first comments about market square and address the one thing that I have been saying for page after page.

Yes market square has square in its name.

Yes it is patronized highly

Yes it is surrounded by interesting establishments.

But it is still surrounded by Travis, Milam, Congress and Preston. Wide busy roads which doesn't give the area the closed in feeling of a square like Main Street Square.

The streets are all narrow where the new lines cross the red line. The lot at Main, Fannin, Capitol and Texas would have made an excellent pedestrian square. Narrow roads plus good public transit. Isn't that where Sam Houston House used to stand?

[kylejack]

Read back to my first comments about market square and address the one thing that I have been saying for page after page.

Yes market square has square in its name.

Yes it is patronized highly

Yes it is surrounded by interesting establishments.

But it is still surrounded by Travis, Milam, Congress and Preston. Wide busy roads which doesn't give the area the closed in feeling of a square like Main Street Square.

The streets are all narrow where the new lines cross the red line. The lot at Main, Fannin, Capitol and Texas would have made an excellent pedestrian square. Narrow roads plus good public transit. Isn't that where Sam Houston House used to stand?

 

That block is surrounded by a Cafe Express, Flying Saucer, a parking garage, another parking garage, Hotel Magnolia, another parking garage, and Kobecue, none of which interact with that block all that much. Parking garages are not allowed around your idealized concept of a square.

[Texasota]

Besides, if the only issue with Market Square is that the roads are too wide, then that's pretty easy to address

 

Right now, Milam is 5 lanes, Travis and Congress are 4, and Preston is 3. On each of those streets, one of those lanes is also used for parallel parking, bringing them to 4, 3 and 2 lanes respectively.

 

Adding high quality bike lanes with separation (which could be done relatively cheaply with restriping and bollards) could take that down to 3, 2 and 1.

[HoustonIsHome]

Not easy to address at all. Those streets are very busy.

Lol we are going around in circles addressing the same things over and over.

Like I said, areas like main street square gives the closed in feeling of a square and it is low traffic.

Market Square feels like you are going to the park

[HoustonIsHome]

That block is surrounded by a Cafe Express, Flying Saucer, a parking garage, another parking garage, Hotel Magnolia, another parking garage, and Kobecue, none of which interact with that block all that much. Parking garages are not allowed around your idealized concept of a square.

I was addressing the street width in the area which is the biggest obstacle.

Cafe express and flying saucer does interact with the surroundings. As for the garages... blow then up.

Much easier to build over a garage than to reduce busy streets feeding into the highway system.

And go easy on the snarky comments. If you disagree you disagree, but no need to jump on every comment I make. I have been consistent on what I would like for Houston to get, its my wishes, you don't have to like it but please be mature and go easy on the hostility

[kylejack]

I was addressing the street width in the area which is the biggest obstacle.

Cafe express and flying saucer does interact with the surroundings. As for the garages... blow then up.

Much easier to build over a garage than to reduce busy streets feeding into the highway system.

And go easy on the snarky comments. If you disagree you disagree, but no need to jump on every comment I make. I have been consistent on what I would like for Houston to get, its my wishes, you don't have to like it but please be mature and go easy on the hostility

 

It isn't hostility, it is critical thinking. You have set out certain stringent criteria for a town square. Too stringent, in my view. Chase Bank, St. Germain Lofts, Capitol Lofts, and the Binz Building are not going to blow up their parking garages so you can realize your ideal town square. I'll comment on whatever posts I want to comment on.

 

[HoustonIsHome]

Its not stringent if darn near every major city has one.

[Texasota]

Not easy to address at all. Those streets are very busy.

Lol we are going around in circles addressing the same things over and over.

Like I said, areas like main street square gives the closed in feeling of a square and it is low traffic.

Market Square feels like you are going to the park

 

 

I just don't understand why you're against the idea of taking the closest thing we have to a square and addressing the single issue that keeps it from meeting your criteria.

 

You cannot just artificially put a square somewhere and expect it to be successful. It's much more practical to take a place that is already popular and improve it.

 

As to the streets being "too busy?" I honestly disagree with you, and you repeatedly stating it does not make it true.

Besides, streets can be narrowed, and I think Congress in particular would be an excellent and natural candidate for that. Widen the (undersized) sidewalk on the north side and reduce traffic to a single lane + protected bike lane. Bam. An even squarier Market Square.

[HoustonIsHome]

All squares are artificial.

And I am on Milam and Preston every day. They are both busy

[kylejack]

They are busy because they are wide. Narrow them and people will choose other routes, and they'll be no busier than Decatur St in New Orleans is right now.

[Texasota]

Ok. I would agree on Milam, (though only really during rush hour) but I didn't think you were suggesting that a "square" needed low traffic on all four sides. Even if Milam were bumper to bumper 24 hours a day, if Congress and Travis were less so than I think Market Square would still be able to meet your definition.

 

Again, I'm really just arguing that we should build off of what we already have rather than trying to create something new from whole cloth. Especially since I believe that what we already have is actually pretty good and is continuing to get better. 

 

 

[Texasota]

And just to address the block at Main, Fannin, Capitol and Texas, the only "narrow" street is Main, which of course has 2 lanes of traffic. The other three have 5, 5 and 4 respectively. If all it takes for you to see "square" material in a parking lot is one 2 lane street with transit, then I really don't understand why you're so opposed to considering how to address what you to perceive to be Market Square's deficiencies.

 

I also don't understand this statement: "Much easier to build over a garage than to reduce busy streets feeding into the highway system."

Easier for whom? These parking garages are privately owned, so their owners would probably need *some* sort of meaningful financial incentive to tear them down and replace them with something that doesn't directly earn them money.

 

The streets, on the other hand, are public right-of way. They don't need to make money, nor are they expected to. And the cost of reworking a few blocks of one or two streets could largely be shouldered by the Downtown Management District, in the same way as sidewalk improvements. That's exactly what happened in Midtown when Bagby was rebuilt. 

[Marcus Allen]

I agree with so many above comments in so many ways, I will just sum up my blathering to this; I think DT could use an iconic space in addition to DG and other parks. I believe the $$$ and interest are there as long as it is marketed as assertively as DG was. I think HTown should begin to add to the paltry number of fountains scattered around the city, beginning with one iconic fountain worthy of a coffee table book in the heart of DT. Then each district of the city could adopt a style and build their own conception of an iconic fountain through out the city. That would be cool.

[HoustonIsHome]

Ok. I would agree on Milam, (though only really during rush hour) but I didn't think you were suggesting that a "square" needed low traffic on all four sides. Even if Milam were bumper to bumper 24 hours a day, if Congress and Travis were less so than I think Market Square would still be able to meet your definition.

 

Again, I'm really just arguing that we should build off of what we already have rather than trying to create something new from whole cloth. Especially since I believe that what we already have is actually pretty good and is continuing to get better.

 

Its not that I'm against it, I just don't see Travis and milam being narrowed as long as they remain feeder roads for 45.

Lets talk after 45 is rerouted.

And both streets are busy. Travis as much as Milam.

 

And just to address the block at Main, Fannin, Capitol and Texas, the only "narrow" street is Main, which of course has 2 lanes of traffic. The other three have 5, 5 and 4 respectively. If all it takes for you to see "square" material in a parking lot is one 2 lane street with transit, then I really don't understand why you're so opposed to considering how to address what you to perceive to be Market Square's deficiencies.

 

I also don't understand this statement: "Much easier to build over a garage than to reduce busy streets feeding into the highway system."

Easier for whom? These parking garages are privately owned, so their owners would probably need *some* sort of meaningful financial incentive to tear them down and replace them with something that doesn't directly earn them money.

 

The streets, on the other hand, are public right-of way. They don't need to make money, nor are they expected to. And the cost of reworking a few blocks of one or two streets could largely be shouldered by the Downtown Management District, in the same way as sidewalk improvements. That's exactly what happened in Midtown when Bagby was rebuilt. 

are you kidding me. Both states are severely narrowed by the rail, and Texas has the diagonal parking luge market square. This lives fannin as the only busy street. But fannin makes up for it in that it is a major public transit street with a ton of buses. Another plus is that this plot is at s juncture of two rail lines so it had the public transit requirements down.

[Texasota]

Congress and Preston! They have nothing to do with 45! And Milam and Travis are only heavily trafficed during rush hour.

 

You're right that Capitol is changing because of light rail, but it's not being "narrowed" in the same way as Main was.

[HoustonIsHome]

Lets not go round and round about market square. We will have to wait to see how that turns out. But as of now and for the foreseeable future it is not closed in and doesn't give that pedestrian cozy feeling.

As for capitol, I thought they were going to set it up like the rail lane through TMC?