Houston's Final Frontier

[citykid09]

Source: Houston Chronicle

Publication date: 2005-06-05

Jun. 5--Lured by enormous parcels of land, cheap prices and an insatiable demand for new homes, residential developers keep stretching Houston's boundaries.

One of the next outposts of suburbia is west of Houston near Fulshear. Jefferson Development has just started work there on Firethorne, a 1,400-acre master-planned community about a mile south of Interstate 10 between Fulshear and Katy, about 30 miles from downtown.

http://www.builderonline.com/industry-news...rticleID=139393

[N Judah]

There's also this really nice new community out near Fulshear called "Fulbrook." If I absolutely had to live in a suburb, that's where I'd live. They have all these little trails going around, and all the houses are on really big lots. It feels more like a summer camp than a housing development.

[LTAWACS]

I saw that on the barnacle. Absolutely ridiculous.

[rps324]

I'm sorry, to each his own, but I am not a fan of those far-flung places. I visited friends in Weston Lakes which is in Fulshear. You go way past Katy Mills! it was absolutely insane to me, but I guess some people like it. When you got there, it had a guarded gate. What are you trying to keep out? The cows or a stray deer? I mean really, you are in the middle of NOWHERE.

[jpcampbell]

This will be a fun thread to look back on in 10 years time and see how that area has grown (or not) after the freeway expansion. I wonder what the "middle of nowhere" will be then?

[LTAWACS]

This will be a fun thread to look back on in 10 years time and see how that area has grown (or not) after the freeway expansion.  I wonder what the "middle of nowhere" will be then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most anything outside 610 is in the middle of nowhere.

[The New Juniper]

Anyone in the land development business, please respond. I would like to know the value of land (say 5,000 acres) down 288. Please keep the "middle of nowhere" comments to yourself. I recognize this isn't the Galleria, but I do want to know what it is worth.

TNJ

[kjb434]

I don't know about the cost, be we have a client that is looking to develop up to 2000 acres in Waller County on I-10. A temporary Interchange with Igloo road will be built and ultimate a typical diamon interchange with in full developes.

it just south of I-10 between Katy and Brookshire.

We also have clients looking at land off of 2218 several miles south of Rosenberg.

A developer recently as for RFQ's (request for qualifications) from several engineering firms for 1500 acres just south of Fairfield on US 290.

We have a developer looking at close to 10,000 acres east of Lake Houston along the proposed Grand Parkway Route.

Many of the families (not really rich families either) that own huge tracts of land that were used for farming are now selling off. They are reaping huge sums of money and the developer gets to move forward with their project. Many older residents that are willing to part with the land and families that have ties to the land but don't use it are willing to sell.

[The New Juniper]

I don't know about the cost, be we have a client that is looking to develop up to 2000 acres in Waller County on I-10.  A temporary Interchange with Igloo road will be built and ultimate a typical diamon interchange with in full developes.

it just south of I-10 between Katy and Brookshire.

We also have clients looking at land off of 2218 several miles south of Rosenberg.

A developer recently as for RFQ's (request for qualifications) from several engineering firms for 1500 acres just south of Fairfield on US 290.

We have a developer looking at close to 10,000 acres east of Lake Houston along the proposed Grand Parkway Route.

Many of the families (not really rich families either) that own huge tracts of land that were used for farming are now selling off.  They are reaping huge sums of money and the developer gets to move forward with their project.  Many older residents that are willing to part with the land and families that have ties to the land but don't use it are willing to sell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for the reply. What, on average, (and I know it varies widely) is a per acre cost on these large tracts?

[kjb434]

That's what I don't know.

My company is primarily in the position to verify if the tract can't be developed with as little obstacles as possible.

I deal with the drainage area. The higher ups know more about the land cost and final feasibilty of the potential development.

[LTAWACS]

Dont they know how much better things can be if they just move in closer?

[GovernorAggie]

"Way out there" to me would be past Grand Parkway. I think that like the article says, almost anywhere inside SH 6 may loosely be "in-town", but I definitely think that everything inside the Belt is "in-town". We have to remember that the belt is similar in circumference to I-285 in Atlanta, I-485 in Charlotte, amd maybe the E-470 in Denver.

[Casual Observer]

Dont they know how much better things can be if they just move in closer?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And just how are things better if they [sic] moved in closer? But before you answer that one, answer this one: How do you propose they [sic] move in closer when the land is not for sale or costs double to triple what they [sic] are paying now?

2 questions..

[713 To 214]

More urban density. Less Sprawl!!!

[jm1fd]

I would like to know the value of land (say 5,000 acres) down 288. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, 'bout tree fiddy.

[Casual Observer]

More urban density.  Less Sprawl!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds great, but who's going to pay for it? Its too expensive for the average American. Thats why sprawl exists in the first place. Why would I pay 160,000 dollars for a townhome in Westchase, when just 10-15 minutes west of there I can buy a new home, with a yard?

Explain the logic to me..

[jpcampbell]

Sounds great, but who's going to pay for it? Its too expensive for the average American. Thats why sprawl exists in the first place. Why would I pay 160,000 dollars for a townhome in Westchase, when just 10-15 minutes west of there I can buy a new home, with a yard?

Explain the logic to me..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. The idea of a townhome or mid/high-rise may be appealing to some, but for me, I'd be miserable. I want a large single family home with a yard big enough for my kids and dog to run around in and still have enough room for a pool.

If that were available inside the loop for anywhere close to what I pay now, I'd do it. But I'm not sacrificing my family's lifestyle just for my personal commuting convenience.

For others, that kind of lifestyle may be what they are after, and that is great too.

[MidtownCoog]

I'm not sacrificing my family's lifestyle just for my personal commuting convenience.

Could not have said it better myself. I have friends in Timbergrove, Shady Acres and the Medical Center. These hoods are not for kids by any means.

IMHO the kids are being neglected so Daddy can get downtown quicker. Sub-par schools, not many other kids in the area, and they are a wee bit high on the sketch factor.

Is that really worth it?

[Original Timmy Chan's]

Agreed.  The idea of a townhome or mid/high-rise may be appealing to some, but for me, I'd be miserable.  I want a large single family home with a yard big enough for my kids and dog to run around in and still have enough room for a pool.

If that were available inside the loop for anywhere close to what I pay now, I'd do it.  But I'm not sacrificing my family's lifestyle just for my personal commuting convenience.

For others, that kind of lifestyle may be what they are after, and that is great too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My wife and I bought and renovated a 2,500 sf house inside the Loop for $125,000(and yes it does have a front AND back yard!) It's in a safe, quiet neighborhood full of a mix of the original owners from the 1940's and a lot of children of the original owners who are raising families. In fact, we're the 3rd generation of our wife's family to live in our home.

I'll agree on the schools...our child (yet to be born) will probably attend private schools, unless HISD and Yates HS make a major turnaround.

The properties are available, but many people mistakenly believe you can only buy houses in the Heights or West U...there is a lot of space inside the Loop if you look for it.

[LTAWACS]

My wife and I bought and renovated a 2,500 sf house inside the Loop for $125,000(and yes it does have a front AND back yard!)  It's in a safe, quiet neighborhood full of a mix of the original owners from the 1940's and a lot of children of the original owners who are raising families.  In fact, we're the 3rd generation of our wife's family to live in our home. 

I'll agree on the schools...our child (yet to be born) will probably attend private schools, unless HISD and Yates HS make a major turnaround. 

The properties are available, but many people mistakenly believe you can only buy houses in the Heights or West U...there is a lot of space inside the Loop if you look for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They are blind to the facts. You have to look at the bigger picture. Less travel means less pollution. You get to sleep more and spend more time with your family instead of sitting in traffic. If all you can think about are the propery values then you're missing the bigger picture. There are plenty of good schools in town.

[MidtownCoog]

If all you can think about are the propery values

And if all you think about is commute times, you too, are missing the big picture.

And the days of all the jobs being downtown is over. The traditional commute patterns have changed.

[LTAWACS]

And if all you think about is commute times, you too, are missing the big picture.

And the days of all the jobs being downtown is over.  The traditional commute patterns have changed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Commute times, prop vals, environment, entertainemt are all part of the picture. Think about how far you'd have to travel just to get a loaf of bread.

So there are no more jobs downtown? Odd.

[MidtownCoog]

There are more jobs outside of downtown, and that's a fact.

Not everyone works in One Allen Center.

[LTAWACS]

There are more jobs outside of downtown, and that's a fact.

Not everyone works in One Allen Center.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Downtown is greater than one allen center. And of course there will be more jobs outside of downtown. Downtown is only about 1 square mile.

[Original Timmy Chan's]

And if all you think about is commute times, you too, are missing the big picture.

And the days of all the jobs being downtown is over.  The traditional commute patterns have changed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Traditional commute patterns HAVE changed. I drive from my house near 288/610 to my job near Westpark and BW-8 on the west side of town, a reverse commute. Takes me 15-20 minutes to travel 17 miles, front door to front door.

Downtown is not nearly as important as it used it be, with large employment centers at Greenway Plaza, Galleria/Uptown, Westchase, Energy Corridor, Woodlands, Sugar Land, Med Center, Greenspoint, etc., etc., etc.

I love living inside the Loop for its social qualities and quality of life, not for employment or commutes (although the short commute is nice).

To each his own...some enjoy the suburban life, others the inner city life. My main point was that you don't have to live in the suburbs to get quality housing at an affordable price. You do have to look a little harder to find it inside the Loop, but it's there...

[GovernorAggie]

Yeah and about this "build neighborhoods like they used to" stuff. Does anyone in here think that the neighborhood types that urbanists worship were built with the thinking, "hey, let's make a neighborhood that has eyes on the street using porches, are all on gridded streets, are a little close together, don't impose on the street, etc." I don't think so. Neighborhoods were built the way the were to match their time periods. Just think, 100 years ago, urbanists may have been lambasting our beloved streetcars for destroying the fabric of neighborhoods and allowing the rich to "escape" the problems of the city--much like we talk about freeways today. And a 100 years before them, the same complaints could possibly have been heard for the first horse-drawn omnibuses.

I'm starting to think that we may not actually have all the right answers, and the hated freeways of today may become cherished modes of travel 100 years from now, because at the rate of technology changes, who knows what a commute will mean in 2105.

As far as having income-segrated suburban areas today--they were segregated in the days of the now-preferable neighborhoods by race.

[VicMan]

"If that were available inside the loop for anywhere close to what I pay now, I'd do it. But I'm not sacrificing my family's lifestyle just for my personal commuting convenience.

"

I'm not sure how the payment part works out, but I live inside the loop and I have a one story house with a yard and a pool!

"I'll agree on the schools...our child (yet to be born) will probably attend private schools, unless HISD and Yates HS make a major turnaround. "

I suggest Bellaire HS or Lamar HS if he would do well in honors classes.

"Could not have said it better myself. I have friends in Timbergrove, Shady Acres and the Medical Center. These hoods are not for kids by any means.

IMHO the kids are being neglected so Daddy can get downtown quicker. Sub-par schools, not many other kids in the area, and they are a wee bit high on the sketch factor.

Is that really worth it? "

Those aren't the neighborhoods where middle class kids are raised.

Middle class kids are generally raised in Bellaire, West University, Braeswood, and Galleria area.

EDIT: Forgot the middle class part!

[LTAWACS]

And if all you think about is commute times, you too, are missing the big picture.

And the days of all the jobs being downtown is over.  The traditional commute patterns have changed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But it's not all I'm thinking about. I gave several other points to consider.

[RedScare]

Vic,

I disagree. Kids are raised on virtually every street of every neighborhood in Houston. There are certain stereotypes that apply to the neighborhoods that you mention...mostly, white upper middle class...but, that doesn't mean that if a neighborhood is not predominantly white and upper middle class, that it is harmful to children.

Frankly, it is the parents uneducated opinions that need work. Study after study shows that children whose days are planned for them develop more slowly than kids who are allowed to explore. Older, denser neighborhoods allow more exploring by a child than spread out master planned communities.

Screaming "Big Story"s by Channel 2 notwithstanding, most inner city neighborhoods are not unsafe for kids. Crime has dropped substantially in most of Houston. Fear mongering news channels, however, have grown exponentially.

I am not opposed to suburbs per se. I DO disagree with the premise that they are family friendly. They are family stereotype friendly. If developers designed these neighborhoods with kids in mind, there would be more places to hang out, and they would be closer together and more pedestrian and bicycle friendly, things kids do.

A neighborhood that does not allow for kids to congregate without being driven there by a parent is not family friendly. Virtually every subdivision I drive through has no sidewalks. Your kids deserve better than that.

[MidtownCoog]

Older, denser neighborhoods allow more exploring by a child than spread out master planned communities.

So you obviously don't have kids yet, correct?