End Of The McMansion Era?

[TheNiche]

So your refrigerator got way more efficient and incidentally no longer has to be unlatched, but your big-screen TV eats up that gain, and all your electronic gaming collectively uses as much power annually as the city of San Diego.

Your car's fuel efficiency has improved, but overall you are filling it up a lot more than you did in the eighties, because then you looked cute driving around in a Nissan Maxima, but now for some reason you need to drive a small bus.

Your little thirties-era Sears kit house was much draftier than what others are unkindly calling your "McMansion," but since you made no real effort to cool it, just opened the windows, turned on the fan, and drank lots of tea, or fell asleep from the torpor, it didn't really cost much, energy-wise. And in winter, Meema shut the doors to all but the living room and lit the "stove," whose roaring heat and gassy fumes were sort of like the atmosphere of Venus, but effective.

But hey - you're recycling your giant plastic jug of detergent, your big plastic jug of OJ, and your 64-oz container of sour cream from Costco, and several dozen Dasani bottles a week! They're becoming plastic park benches and, uh, other stuff, probably. And you've cut way back on red meat. You're eating mahi-mahi flown in from Hawaii instead. You're so damn green.

Nailed it.

[Houston19514]

So your refrigerator got way more efficient and incidentally no longer has to be unlatched, but your big-screen TV eats up that gain, and all your electronic gaming collectively uses as much power annually as the city of San Diego.

Your car's fuel efficiency has improved, but overall you are filling it up a lot more than you did in the eighties, because then you looked cute driving around in a Nissan Maxima, but now for some reason you need to drive a small bus.

Your little thirties-era Sears kit house was much draftier than what others are unkindly calling your "McMansion," but since you made no real effort to cool it, just opened the windows, turned on the fan, and drank lots of tea, or fell asleep from the torpor, it didn't really cost much, energy-wise. And in winter, Meema shut the doors to all but the living room and lit the "stove," whose roaring heat and gassy fumes were sort of like the atmosphere of Venus, but effective.

But hey - you're recycling your giant plastic jug of detergent, your big plastic jug of OJ, and your 64-oz container of sour cream from Costco, and several dozen Dasani bottles a week! They're becoming plastic park benches and, uh, other stuff, probably. And you've cut way back on red meat. You're eating mahi-mahi flown in from Hawaii instead. You're so damn green.

LOL Post of the day.

[LTAWACS]

Red, cars are more expensive, but they are vastly superior to what they were before.

I think the same is true of houses today. People want big houses but the also don't pay a penalty for the utility, at least not the newer homes. Back in the 50-60's, they had low ceilings because they had to keep the volume low because they had such inefficient a/c back then, with no insulation! Its not a coincidence that McMansions with their high ceilings came about when technology made homes more efficient, energy wise. And I love that the City has some semi-tough codes for making new houses efficient. I think they should go even further.

I live in a 1930's 2000 SF bungalow and pay more for electricity than my parents do for their 4000 SF house in Sugar Land!

Why do you not upgrade what you can (windows, insulation, central ac/heating) to make your house more energy efficient?

[texas911]

Oh I've done my share of upgrades. Windows, insulation (not the crawl space though) and upgraded to a high efficiency dual speed a/c (which we love), just can't beat a modern home that was designed from the start to be efficient. I think the only way to get my house that efficient is to use spray foam insulation everywhere. I'm looking into it.

[Fringe]

Hopefully they have improved the foam insulation. In the old days it was flammable and quite toxic.

[Marksmu]

Foam insulation has come a long long way. Now the foam is non-toxic, they have fungicides mixed with them to prevent mold growth and they seal the house extremely efficiently with excellent R Vales....the one thing on new construction is that they seal so well that you can have built up pollution from household cleaners, dust, and just breathing to the point where the inside air is not actually clean. To counter this they now use fresh air exchange systems (ERV) that pull in fresh air and run it through a filter and per-conditioner to cool it off then mix it with the return line on the AC unit to provide clean outside air into the house.

I have done extensive research on foam insulation as I am in the planning stages of a new home for myself and I intend to use it....My new house will have foam insulation, high efficiency windows, high seer hvac, an ERV fresh air system, and a whole house dehumidifier....couple all that with a North/South sun elevation and I hope to have about the same electric bill as I currently do with slightly less than double my current square footage.

[Ross]

There's no way I would use foam insulation here. given our humidity levels and lack of extreme cold. I don't want to have to depend on air conditioning and extra dehumidification to rid the house of excess moisture. It's also a pain to do any electrical repair when you have foam in the walls.

When we reside and reinsulate, I plan to use one of the better house wraps, and as much fiberglass batt as will fit in a space defined by 2x4's.

[RedScare]

I, too, believe that foam is a bad choice for total insulation. Foam should be used to seal all cracks, gaps and other openings. However, batt insulation is better in walls. There is the moisture problem, and use the blown in insulation is bad in that it eventually falls to the bottom of the cavity. Foam insulating boards are very good, however, especially in conjunction with batts.

[Marksmu]

I, too, believe that foam is a bad choice for total insulation. Foam should be used to seal all cracks, gaps and other openings. However, batt insulation is better in walls. There is the moisture problem, and use the blown in insulation is bad in that it eventually falls to the bottom of the cavity. Foam insulating boards are very good, however, especially in conjunction with batts.

There are two types of foam insulation - open cell and closed cell....the closed cell is bad for our climate because it does not breathe at all, the open cell is not. The open cell actually allows moisture to migrate through the foam the same way it would through the batt insulation....Also dont confuse spray in foam with blown in insulation - the two are drastically different....I believe you probably know this, but if not here ya go.

Blown in insulation is essentially newspaper that is sprayed into your wall wet. It does have the possibility of settling into the base of the wall cavity though there is so much of it blown in, that it is unlikely to settle substantially....it is mixed with a fire retardant and some form of a glue due to its high flammability.

Spray foam insulation on the other hand is an adhesive expanding foam. The open cell is ideal for Houston's climate. It is non-toxic, contains a fungicide to prevent any mold or algae growth in the event of moisture problems from a leaky roof or window, and it allows water to pass through it.....The R Value is not significantly higher than batt insulation but its ability to seal the exterior of the home so tightly makes it a tremendously better choice. Foam insulation does not settle or fall to the bottom of the cavity ever....the adhesive used in the foam will not separate from the wall....even if you wanted it too. For pure insulation numbers spray foam vs batt is essentially a wash...however due to its sealing abilities, it drastically reduces drafts, insects and rodents and air leaks from windows/doors/corners etc.

In regards to electrical issues and foam, I plan on placing all my exterior wall wiring in conduit....not because of the foam, but because its just a better practice and the cost is miniscule...With my wiring in conduit it becomes simple to address any electrical issues that may arise....especially new technology that may come with future electronics.

Finally, the ERV system and the dehumidifier are not required for foam insulation, they are both things I want to install. My wife has severe allergies and the ERV system reduces dust/pollen and other allergen levels substantially better than a standard hvac system, and at a fraction of the cost of a home air purifier. The dehumidifier is for personal comfort and cost savings. If you have never felt the comfort difference between a 78 degree house with a dehumidifier and one without - it is drastic. At my current home 78 is uncomfortably hot even when your not moving....in the models that use the system we looked at - 78 was not nearly as uncomfortable. The system we are looking into reduced the humidity level from a 74% RH inside a home without it to a 42% RH inside the same model with it....the feeling was noticeable and the cost is negligible in the scope of a new build. Most of the whole home systems can be installed for less than $2500 if done during the initial construction phase. Electric savings alone will pay for it...but the home will be more comfortable.

Long winded conclusion. Foam is not a solution for everyone, and it is usually a poor choice for a remodel or insulation upgrade in our climate. However, on new construction, when the entire home envelope is being designed to complement it, it becomes a superior product.

[heightslurker]

marksmu:

what about foam insulation under the house in our pier in beam? our builder is proposing some closed cell stuff.... I've heard because the open cell is porous, it could wick water to the wood floor, rotting it...of course, i guess closed cell could trap water and do the same..

so is it best not to insulate the crawl space? does it make a big difference?

[Marksmu]

marksmu:

what about foam insulation under the house in our pier in beam? our builder is proposing some closed cell stuff.... I've heard because the open cell is porous, it could wick water to the wood floor, rotting it...of course, i guess closed cell could trap water and do the same..

so is it best not to insulate the crawl space? does it make a big difference?

I dont have an answer to that question...I have read conflicting opinions on insulating the crawlspace...both from open cell and closed cell foam distributors....

I can tell you from experiences that I currently have batt insulation under my house and I have checked it frequently to see if it retains moisture that could cause wood rot....It is perfectly dry at all times....HOWEVER I will also say that I can not tell that it does anything. In the winter, my floors are ice cold, and the summer they are generally room temperature.

Sorry I can't answer your question as to that issue...The house we are building is on slab so I have not spent the time to research foam in crawlspaces.

[texas911]

There is also the option of making the whole crawl space conditioned space by insulating the beam footing around the perimeter of the house. It involves creating a giant moisture proof barrier on the ground but I've seen companies that make giant sheets of plastic for the purpose. The insulation isn't spray foam but rigid foam sheets installed on the inside of the beams. Might be worth a try.

[livincinco]

Looks like reports of the demise of the McMansion may have been premature.

http://moneyland.time.com/2012/07/02/the-return-of-the-mcmansion/

[RedScare]

I wouldn't run screaming into the night just yet. These numbers are likely skewed by the still unsettled home construction and mortgage markets. There are more likely fewer families able to borrow money for small homes than larger ones. Pre-crash, the subprime lending market was overexposed, allowing those with bad credit and smaller incomes to buy homes. Most of these would be smaller homes. Now, these borrowers cannot qualify for loans. So, by subtraction, the average home size increases. Fewer small homes can be bought as medium and large home sales recover. It is even possible that overall home size is still dropping.

Consider this example...

2007

1000 1600 sf homes built

1000 2400 sf homes built

1000 3563 sf homes built

Average size = 2521 sf per home

2012

500 1500 sf homes built

1000 2300 sf homes built

1500 2927 sf homes built

Average = 2480 sf per home

Notice that across the board, everyone is building smaller homes, yet the average still meets the numbers in the article. The low point came in 2010, when average home size reached 2392 sf. Given that the number of new homes built during the recession dropped by 2/3 or more in 2009, 2010, and 2011, any number of factors could be affecting the average sf number, only one of which would be the return of the McMansion. Remember, these are only single family homes. The number of people moving into apartments and condos has increased, and virtually all of those units are 1500 sf or less.

[TonyM]

And nearly 20% have three-car garages, an increase following two years of declines.

Heh, if I had my choice my garage would probably be as large as my home, haha. Workshop space for the win.

[Ross]

My garage is 2/3 the size of the hosue. It's great!

[texas911]

People need a three car garage to fit one car and 2 bays worth of crap!

[Marksmu]

Some of us still mow our own yards and prefer to keep our yard equipment in a place that it wont get stolen...in a standard size 2 car garage there is not enough room for the lawn equipment and 2 cars...thus three car garages.

I refuse to pay someone $30 to do something I can do in 30 minutes....if they wanted to mow my tiny lot for $10-$15 I would let them, but I am not about to pay someone $30 to mow less than 2000 sqft of grass.

I also have plenty of hobbies I enjoy that are regulated to the garage. The house is my wife's but the garage is all mine....If they were not so expensive I would have a 4 or 5 car garage, regardless of the size of the house.

[samagon]

I anticipate when I win the lottery, that my garage will actually be larger than my house, by a substantial margin.

[RedScare]

Some of us still mow our own yards and prefer to keep our yard equipment in a place that it wont get stolen...in a standard size 2 car garage there is not enough room for the lawn equipment and 2 cars...thus three car garages.

I refuse to pay someone $30 to do something I can do in 30 minutes....if they wanted to mow my tiny lot for $10-$15 I would let them, but I am not about to pay someone $30 to mow less than 2000 sqft of grass.

I also have plenty of hobbies I enjoy that are regulated to the garage. The house is my wife's but the garage is all mine....If they were not so expensive I would have a 4 or 5 car garage, regardless of the size of the house.

I find that my lawnmower fits easily in a 2 foot by 4 foot space, with room left over for 2 cars. However, despite your poor example, an un-air conditioned 3 car garage is not the problem with McMansions. And, a bigger garage means a lesser need for storage warehouses that blight the landscape.

[august948]

I find that my lawnmower fits easily in a 2 foot by 4 foot space, with room left over for 2 cars. However, despite your poor example, an un-air conditioned 3 car garage is not the problem with McMansions. And, a bigger garage means a lesser need for storage warehouses that blight the landscape.

My sister-in-law bought a house with a 3 car garage and then promptly went out to buy a car to fill it. I don't have the statistics at hand, but I suspect that the total space available in the ubiquitous storage warehouses has gone up over the same time period (say the last 10 years or so) as the number of houses with 3 car garages has gone up. I'm not implying a causal relationship as much as suggesting that people will fill any space they have and then some.

As for garage space, I have an early 80's house and it's got a good 6 feet of length beyond what's needed for the cars. I've noticed, though, that a lot of new houses, including many with the 3 car garages, don't include much more space than what's necessary for the cars.

[KinkaidAlum]

People think they NEED garages but I've never had enclosed garage parking anywhere I have ever lived.

Of course, most folks think we all need cellphones to survive too. The world worked just fine without them. In fact, I'd argue that I enjoyed life a helluva lot more without them.

[Ross]

Our garage serves as the storage for our small 2br house. Where else would we keep the camping gear, coolers, lawn tools, seasonal decorations, workbench, tools, etc? Certainly not in the house, there's no room in the two small closets. The garage lets us live in a house that's much smaller than we would otherwise need.

[texas911]

People think they NEED garages but I've never had enclosed garage parking anywhere I have ever lived.

Of course, most folks think we all need cellphones to survive too. The world worked just fine without them. In fact, I'd argue that I enjoyed life a helluva lot more without them.

Of course if the human race thought this way, we'd still be in caves. We don't need a lot of things but a lot of things make our lives easier. They probably don't have garages or cellphones in third world countries, ask them if they want them.

[Ross]

Of course if the human race thought this way, we'd still be in caves. We don't need a lot of things but a lot of things make our lives easier. They probably don't have garages or cellphones in third world countries, ask them if they want them.

Garages, no (note even the rich), but cell phones are everywhere in the third world.

[jt16]

Garages, no (note even the rich), but cell phones are everywhere in the third world.

Garage/Hut, what's the difference

[august948]

Garage/Hut, what's the difference

 

Livestock isn't allowed in the garage.

[Ross]

Garage/Hut, what's the difference

 

Even 12,000 sq ft mansions only have car ports in the developing world.

[ricco67]

Garage/Hut, what's the difference

 

Oil stains.

[livincinco]

This topic keeps popping up due to voting, so I thought that I would address the original question with the benefit of 3 years hindsight. The answer appears to be no.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/04/real_estate/home-size/index.html