Another Light Rail Train Hit By A METRO Bus

[713 To 214]

I wonder why a city founded over 1000 years ago has a more developed transit system than a city founded 270 years ago.

I don't think age of the city has much to do with it. There are many cities that have started and/or significantly expanded their systems within the last 50 years. I think it's more about the culture of cities.

[citykid09]

By the way editor, I wanted to ask you is this the city you are moving to? I think you said it was a city of a little over 100,000 people and this city has over 123,771 people. And it looks like they are adding light rail. Thats a pretty progressive city to be so small and an impressive skyline to be so small.

Bellevue, Washington

[AtticaFlinch]

You are looking at one station in a vast network. The majority of Brussels metro is above ground, runs on streets next to traffic, and looks very similar to Houston's light rail. There is a small portion which runs underground in the downtown section and ties into the subway system. This is also the case for Amsterdam's metro. And Vienna's. And the SLUT in Seattle.

Eh... I've ridden Brussels.

The one (central) underground I was in reeked of urine and was full of (or at least surrounded by) transients. The big positive that city had was that the airport was connected to the center of the city. If citykid wants to level a genuine complaint that differentiates our systems, that would be his best avenue. There is no quick public access transit service here for that. THAT is a legitimate complaint.

Learn to pick your battles, citykid.

[editor]

I don't think age of the city has much to do with it. There are many cities that have started and/or significantly expanded their systems within the last 50 years. I think it's more about the culture of cities.

Citykid is correct about this. Remember that Chicago and Houston are about the same age (within a couple of months). Chicago was founded by people with an east-coast urban mentality. Houston was founded by people with a more frontier, outdoorsy, independent view of life. Both cities reflect their heritages.

The one (central) underground I was in reeked of urine and was full of (or at least surrounded by) transients.

And that's different than much of downtown Houston how?

Strawman argument at best.

[scarface]

I don't think age of the city has much to do with it. There are many cities that have started and/or significantly expanded their systems within the last 50 years. I think it's more about the culture of cities.

basded om the map that 713-214 posted, it appears that Houston is definitely not alone in having such a short transit system, abeit those cities are much smaller compared to Houston so that doesn't really say much.

[Fringe]

I can't read the map key but it appears Dallas is connected by mass transit to Phoenix and Oklahoma City.  When did that happen? 

[JamesL]

That's an interesting graphic. I think Dallas cheated, though, by including TRE which only runs about 23 round trips per day. If that counts as urban transit, then New York's graphic should include LIRR, Metro-North, and NJ Transit and Chicago should get some Metra lines and the South Shore. I notice the CalTrain is included in the San Francisco graphic.

Y'all might enjoy this:

http://www.humantransit.org/2009/11/its-not-a-race-but-if-it-were-.html

[JLWM8609]

I think the problem isn't only with the design of the light rail, but the morons we have for drivers here. In other words, BAD+BAD=EPIC FAIL. You could put up all of the blinking red lights, crossing arms and loud horns that you want, but the average moronic Houston driver will still find a way to get into an accident and eff up the commute for everyone else. Just in the past week, I witnessed drivers nearly cause accidents on the 288/59 dual freeway downtown when they decided that they no longer wanted to get forced to exit onto I-45 from 288 and instead and got on 59 by jumping the raised curb, driving over the grassy median and getting on 59 and nearly causing an accident by merging into the left lane w/o looking. Don't even get me started on the "skills" I've witnessed our rural brethren exhibit on the South Loop over these past few weeks.

[scarface]

I can't read the map key but it appears Dallas is connected by mass transit to Phoenix and Oklahoma City.  When did that happen? 

LOL at Dallas being connected to Phoneix, i don't think the map is quite drawn to scale. Look at the distance between Dallas and Atlanta.

But for a better look at the keymap key, try this link for a larger view

http://www.radicalcartography.net/subways_2.pdf

[JLWM8609]

I just heard that Wanda Sykes has made fun of this accident on her late night talk show. Now who can say that our transit system isn't nationally recognized? GO METRO!

[TheNiche]

What you just said supports my argument all along. There is the complaint that offering anything better as far as rail is not affordable for Houston, but that's not true. The people have not wanted to spend the money. Yet they complain that their city is not taken serious or looked at the same as the Chicagos, NYCs,or the LAs, its because you don't take your own city serious enough.

The other city's decisions do not support your argument. They merely indicate local preferences. Their agency's opinion is no better than ours and possesses no more powers of negation of our agency's opinion than do ours over theirs.

You tend to put too much faith in the opinions and actions of other cities and individuals. You should strive to be an opinion leader, yourself, rather than merely echoing their messages. (I don't mean that as a personal attack, btw, but as constructive advice. You think outside the box and are willing to take unpopular stances, and I respect that because it shows character--even if I disagree with your conclusions--but you need to hone your argumentative skills a bit.)

We can argue back and forth forever, but you can never be an Alpha world-class city without a world-class transit system and what METRO is building is not world class. Houston may be one of the fastest growing cities now, but in the future when a time comes when people don't drive as much, Houston will be left out and people will migrate to cities where they can get around without a car.

Judging from demographic trends which indicate a massive domestic out-migration from cities like New York to cities like Houston, it strikes me that at such a time as mass transit becomes the preferred way of getting around in Houston, we'll probably be losing residents to cities where they can still efficiently drive around...like Byran/College Station or Waco, perhaps. Post-WW2 market-driven transit use in the modern era is an indication that a city is becoming too big for its britches, more than anything.

Another fault with your argument is that larger cities have higher transit use per capita, however still have higher and higher numbers of drivers of single-occupant automobiles. The number of drivers increases as the size of a city increases.

Have you ever been to Dallas??? You have zero credibility with anything pertaining to urbanity.

In all fairness, Dallas does have more transit-oriented development than does Houston. It's not much, and most of it was only made viable by an improbable combination of municipal subsidies and capital markets that were on crack at the time, but you should probably concede that particular point.

I don't think age of the city has much to do with it. There are many cities that have started and/or significantly expanded their systems within the last 50 years. I think it's more about the culture of cities.

That, and radicalcartography.net defines mass transit as something that is necessarily on a fixed guideway. But that's not a very useful definition.

This is what Houston looks like if you take into account our P&R routes, which function much like commuter rail, except that they're superior in almost every way. Red represents P&R routes, purple represents existing LRT, and green represents public-private-partnership alternatives. You will notice that the furthest extent of our P&R infrastructure is approximately 37 miles from downtown Houston...on par or exceeding the length of any given route shown on the radicalcartography.net image, including the Dallas-Fort Worth connection or the San Francisco-San Jose connection.

[editor]

That, and radicalcartography.net defines mass transit as something that is necessarily on a fixed guideway. But that's not a very useful definition.

There are likely other problems with that map, too.

It is at least five years outdated. And it doesn't show Seattle at all, which has two light rail lines: LINK and SLUT, plus the Sounder commuter rail network.

LINK train:

SLUT train:

"SLUT" is South Lake Union Trolley. It connects to the current LINK trains in the tunnel beneath downtown, and construction is about to begin on two new SLUT lines and a new LINK line.

(Just when you guys got used to tuning out my Chicago references, now you're going to have to learn to tune out my Seattle rants )

[VicMan]

but the morons we have for drivers here. In other words, BAD+BAD=EPIC FAIL. You could put up all of the blinking red lights, crossing arms and loud horns that you want, but the average moronic Houston driver will still find a way to get into an accident and eff up the commute for everyone else.

I would advocate for more punitive fines for accidents caused by ignoring no turn signs or aggressive behavior - that should either cause drivers to smarten up, or it would become a big revenue generator for the city and/or METRO.

[713 To 214]

There are likely other problems with that map, too.

It is at least five years outdated. And it doesn't show Seattle at all, which has two light rail lines: LINK and SLUT, plus the Sounder commuter rail network.

Yeah, I guess I should have noted that the Map is outdated. I assumed that most of the people here had already seen it, or could decipher from looking at it that a number of updates weren't included. Take Dallas for instance. The map does not show the new Green Line, which is partially in service, and will be in full service (about 23 miles worth) by the end of the year. The main purpose of my posting the map was to illustrate the number of cities that have started and/or expanded their rail systems in the last 50 years - A point made to counter the argument that Houston's rail system lags behind because it's a younger city.

AND, in an effort to bring the discussion full circle, I submit that the same Houstonian mentality that encouraged no investment in rail 20 - 30 years ago, is the same mentality that encourages making excuses for ponying up enough money to pay for a grade separated system expansion now. . .and the lack of grade separation is partially the reason for the number of bus crashes we're seeing. This most recent bus/rail crash won't be the last because the (at grade) expansion of the system only increases the likelihood that these types of accidents will occur.

[ricco67]

"SLUT" is South Lake Union Trolley. It connects to the current LINK trains in the tunnel beneath downtown, and construction is about to begin on two new SLUT lines and a new LINK line.

(Just when you guys got used to tuning out my Chicago references, now you're going to have to learn to tune out my Seattle rants )

Thanks okay, it's always good to hear about SLUTs.

[editor]

Yeah, I guess I should have noted that the Map is outdated. I assumed that most of the people here had already seen it, or could decipher from looking at it that a number of updates weren't included. Take Dallas for instance. The map does not show the new Green Line, which is partially in service, and will be in full service (about 23 miles worth) by the end of the year. The main purpose of my posting the map was to illustrate the number of cities that have started and/or expanded their rail systems in the last 50 years - A point made to counter the argument that Houston's rail system lags behind because it's a younger city.

AND, in an effort to bring the discussion full circle, I submit that the same Houstonian mentality that encouraged no investment in rail 20 - 30 years ago, is the same mentality that encourages making excuses for ponying up enough money to pay for a grade separated system expansion now. . .and the lack of grade separation is partially the reason for the number of bus crashes we're seeing. This most recent bus/rail crash won't be the last because the (at grade) expansion of the system only increases the likelihood that these types of accidents will occur.

This thread is meandering off topic. If you'd like to start a new thread about light rail in Houston, or add to one of the existing Houston light rail threads, please do. But let's keep this one on track. So to speak.

[713 To 214]

This thread is meandering off topic. If you'd like to start a new thread about light rail in Houston, or add to one of the existing Houston light rail threads, please do. But let's keep this one on track. So to speak.

You and I obviously agree on that, which is why I was attempting to relate my previous comments back to the most recent bus/rail crash that was the impetus for this thread. As for creating another thread on light rail in Houston, I think there are more than enough of those threads on HAIF already.

@JLWM8609: The Wanda Sykes skit was funny. I'm sure it will be on youtube or vimeo soon, for those that missed it.

[kdog08]

Yeah, I guess I should have noted that the Map is outdated. I assumed that most of the people here had already seen it, or could decipher from looking at it that a number of updates weren't included. Take Dallas for instance. The map does not show the new Green Line, which is partially in service, and will be in full service (about 23 miles worth) by the end of the year. The main purpose of my posting the map was to illustrate the number of cities that have started and/or expanded their rail systems in the last 50 years - A point made to counter the argument that Houston's rail system lags behind because it's a younger city.

AND, in an effort to bring the discussion full circle, I submit that the same Houstonian mentality that encouraged no investment in rail 20 - 30 years ago, is the same mentality that encourages making excuses for ponying up enough money to pay for a grade separated system expansion now. . .and the lack of grade separation is partially the reason for the number of bus crashes we're seeing. This most recent bus/rail crash won't be the last because the (at grade) expansion of the system only increases the likelihood that these types of accidents will occur.

And what is the ridership of these cities? Dallas is building lots of rail but will it carry many passengers?

I think it is shameful that METRO still hasn't laid any track down on the expansion and it is embarrassing that the most important expansion line's funding is in question. I think that certain intersections need to be grade separated in order to make the rail more effective, but it doesn't need to be totally elevated or even a majority elevated. Working in the real world requires compromises and this line is compromise. I think when it is finally complete it will continue to carry a high ridership compared nationally. It seems some folks here think the mere presence of rail makes it effective and/or the city innovative or with the times. I applaud Dallas for getting it together and building a rail, but I don't think it's the right kind of rail for the city.

[citykid09]

I applaud Dallas for getting it together and building a rail, but I don't think it's the right kind of rail for the city.

What kind of rail do you think is right for Dallas then? They were originally supposed to have the same rail as Atlanta, but the DART member cities in the suburbs didn't want that because they thought that the lines would never reach their cities, so they compromised with light rail.

[citykid09]

In related news a Baltimore light rail was hit by a tractor-trailer:

For some reason the link doesn't work, but you can look up Baltimore light rail on Yahoo news.

[AtticaFlinch]

And that's different than much of downtown Houston how?

Strawman argument at best.

Well... I was hoping to leave the implication that it wasn't much different than Houston (and therefore not a model of betterness - in other words, agreeing with you.), but it appears my communication skills have broken down yet again.

I do still think having an inexpensive rail connection to the airport does make it better though. At least a little. (Although we do have the 102 bus which gives travelers a scenic view of Greenspoint's many apartment offerings.)

In all fairness, Dallas does have more transit-oriented development than does Houston. It's not much, and most of it was only made viable by an improbable combination of municipal subsidies and capital markets that were on crack at the time, but you should probably concede that particular point.

The presence of rail doesn't necessarily imply urbanity, and using it as the benchmark to determine urbanity is just plain ol' silly.

[TheNiche]

The presence of rail doesn't necessarily imply urbanity, and using it as the benchmark to determine urbanity is just plain ol' silly.

Oh, I agree. But there are a lot of...ahem, "silly" people out there. So many, in fact, that the common definition has lost any semblance of meaning or usefulness.

Personally, I go by the Census definition that is based on a fairly low population density. It seems to work as a decent indicator for whether I'm sociologically in the countryside or not. Everything else is just aesthetics, and is pretty much meaningless. Whether we're talking suburban assholes demanding that all the housing occupied by poor people in their school district be torn down or urban douches (i.e. future suburban assholes) buying into the hype of a constructed reality meant to mask the stench of their species' breeding grounds...it's all the same in the end, merely a reproductive strategy.

[JamesL]

So about that topic for which this thread is named...

I saw unit 117 (the one that broadsided the bus in February) being tested around the loop at the METRORail Operations Center today. The coupler and bogie covers were still removed.

At least one unit was inside the shop; I'm guessing 116, which was in the March crash, is in there since I haven't seen it in service.

Just METRO's luck that two units would be out of service during their busiest period of the year.

[SaintCyr]

Where are they commuting from that they would need to get on the train to get to work? Are people driving to predetermined parking points to park and board the train north of the medical center?

My wife rides the bus (line 50) from the Heights to the Light Rail... She works at TCH. It saves us around $500 a month we would normally have to be spending...

$200.00 Car Payment

$100.00 Parking

$100.00 Insurance

$ 50.00 Gas

$-85.00 Tickets for bus and light rail (TCH has a Q-Card they put $87 on each month for her).

This way is actually faster for her than driving by about 10 minutes due to traffic. My 0.02 cents.

[Jeebus]

My wife rides the bus (line 50) from the Heights to the Light Rail... She works at TCH. It saves us around $500 a month we would normally have to be spending...

$200.00 Car Payment

$100.00 Parking

$100.00 Insurance

$ 50.00 Gas

$-85.00 Tickets for bus and light rail (TCH has a Q-Card they put $87 on each month for her).

This way is actually faster for her than driving by about 10 minutes due to traffic. My 0.02 cents.

Thank you. This is the type of answer I was looking for. I would imagine that this is the scenario for most of the rush hour ridership. My wife's office downtown reimburses P&R receipts, so we're kinda in the same boat, just no rail.

[samagon]

My wife rides the bus (line 50) from the Heights to the Light Rail... She works at TCH. It saves us around $500 a month we would normally have to be spending...

$200.00 Car Payment

$100.00 Parking

$100.00 Insurance

$ 50.00 Gas

$-85.00 Tickets for bus and light rail (TCH has a Q-Card they put $87 on each month for her).

This way is actually faster for her than driving by about 10 minutes due to traffic. My 0.02 cents.

I have a friend that does this from the east end as well. He loses about 5 minutes overall, although he has kept his car and still drives on oppressively bad weather days, but the gas and parking he saves easily makes up for the price of admission. He also says the rail is a great place to pick up on really hot chicks.

So it looks like, while the LR may be a failure in some respects, it is definitely to be commended for it's love connection potential.

[jgriff]

I just got a new job downtown and decided to try the bus for the first time yesterday. It's about a 1/4 mile walk from my house to the bus stop. 40 minutes later I'm at my building.

This is already saving me the $146 a month I was paying for a parking spot. The gas savings is negated by the bus fees. I'm thinking I might be able to get rid of one of our cars though. This would save me a huge amount of money, like enough to get me to retirement 5 or 10 years sooner.

As a newbie to mass transit I'm fairly happy with it. There's a bus at my building every 5 minutes around rush hour. I can get home anytime I need to. I only have 1 bus an hour go by my house. It would be better if there were more. If I miss one I'll be an hour late to work.

If the buses are this good why do we need trains?

[kylejack]

If you live or work downtown its great, because there's virtually always a bus going or coming from where you need to go. Moving out into other areas, though, its not quite as painless. Lots of waiting around if you're near an infrequent route.

[JamesL]

LRV 116 was back in service today. I didn't get a close look, but I bet they've fixed it so you could never tell it was in an accident.