Mayor Says 2 Rail Lines In Doubt

[citykid09]

abc13 is going to have a METRO vs DART segment on Monday at 6:00pm and 10:00pm. The preview showed how well DART is doing for Dallas and who METRO is failing Houston. I wonder if they have been reading my or our arrangements on here and decided to check it out?

[musicman]

annise is having massive issues cause now the post-bill white problems are surfacing.

[N Judah]

The Astrodome...............I can't think of anything else right now. But the city did approve plans for a monorail until that mayor used that money extra cops.

Well that definition of 'innovation' doesn't really help your cause, now does it? You could have as many domed stadium marvels as you want and the city could still be a

"large mediocre rural/suburban/semi-urban city" without any of the aspects of city life that you have observed Atlanta to have which Houston doesn't.

I think that a marvel-of-engineering heavy rail (in the sense that it has more capacity than LRT) plus more setback, variance, etc. control given to TIRZs would give you more vibrant city life than you could handle, but in a good way However, I would then consider that the first truly innovative thing done in a city that, to me, has always seemed relentlessly un-innovative.

[IronTiger]

I personally believe, that with the government's exponentially increasing debt* and possibly even Houston's, I would suggest that METRO award a contract to a private company to run and build the LRT. What do you think?

* (debt has increased recently, but maybe not exponentially. It was just put in for emphasis)

[JamesL]

I personally believe, that with the government's exponentially increasing debt* and possibly even Houston's, I would suggest that METRO award a contract to a private company to run and build the LRT. What do you think?

Good idea! I'm surprised they didn't think of it already... http://houston.bizjournals.com/houston/stories/2009/04/20/daily47.html .

Whoever made up the name HRT either has a sense of humor or doesn't understand the project.

[kdog08]

abc13 is going to have a METRO vs DART segment on Monday at 6:00pm and 10:00pm. The preview showed how well DART is doing for Dallas and who METRO is failing Houston. I wonder if they have been reading my or our arrangements on here and decided to check it out?

DART isn't doing anything for Dallas.... their ridership is nearly the same as 6 years ago and carry about ~210,000 people a day on bus, LRT, and heavy rail for the entire service area. Get a clue.

[citykid09]

DART isn't doing anything for Dallas.... their ridership is nearly the same as 6 years ago and carry about ~210,000 people a day on bus, LRT, and heavy rail for the entire service area. Get a clue.

Hey, its not my story its abc13's. And the story is not specifically about ridership its about the development (urban infill) that it has created. Ridership can change at any moment, who knows what will happen in the future that could change ridership. Gas could go up to over $10 a gallon and which system would be better equip to service its city? Surely not METRO.

[TheNiche]

Hey, its not my story its abc13's. And the story is not specifically about ridership its about the development (urban infill) that it has created. Ridership can change at any moment, who knows what will happen in the future that could change ridership. Gas could go up to over $10 a gallon and which system would be better equip to service its city? Surely not METRO.

Is the purpose of transit is as a hedge against fuel costs? Or as Mayor Parker claims, is it to provide mobility to people that cannot afford cars? Or as I believe, is it to enhance regional mobility in such a way as reduces commute times? Figure out our objectives and priorities and the appropriate system design will follow.

[totheskies]

Hey, its not my story its abc13's. And the story is not specifically about ridership its about the development (urban infill) that it has created. Ridership can change at any moment, who knows what will happen in the future that could change ridership. Gas could go up to over $10 a gallon and which system would be better equip to service its city? Surely not METRO.

Two main differences between Houston and Dallas...

1) Dallas is a smaller central city with much larger and more powerful suburbs. So they built their system with the suburbs in mind first, and are just now getting to build an "inner city" rail system. Aside from Downtown and a couple of nice interest spots, their rail line is mostly a commute alternative. Whereas Houston built a very very short line where few people can use it for commuting, but it connects two of the city's three largest employment areas, all of our major sports venues, the majority of the arts and museum community and a whole host of other stuff. Dallas is getting closer, but it doesn't get near the "bang for your buck" that the one Red Line in Houston does. They are very different rail systems with very different goals.

2) Houstonians (in general) are far more concerned with cost and "assumed" practicality than Dallasites. I.E. we're cheap. Because of this though, Dallas is building a much better system than anything that we've got planned here. It doesn't have to fight traffice because most of it is grade-separated. You don't read about a DART-Rail collision every week because they don't have them. I would love to see how much money METRO has shelled out to repair trains and busses, settle win or lose lawsuits and how much additional maintenance we're paying for the at-grade system in comparison to DART. THAT is a story that Ted Oberg needs to tell.

[totheskies]

From the Mayor's website...

http://www.houstontx.gov/mayor/press/20100315.html

MAYOR ANNISE PARKER FIGHTS FOR NASA/METRO FUNDING IN NATION'S CAPITOL

Mayor Parker will have a media availability to answer questions about her trip to Washington D.C. at 1 p.m. in the Proclamation Room, 3rd Floor, Houston City Hall

March 15, 2010 -- Mayor Parker is headed to Washington D.C. this week for meetings with NASA Administrator Charles Bolden, Transportation Secretary Ray Lahood and members of Congress. She will reiterate her support for METRO’s planned expansion of light rail and seek reconsideration of the cancellation of NASA’s Constellation program. The mayor’s visit is part of a broader effort to save the manned space flight program that involves the local congressional delegation, Bay Area Houston Economic Partnership, the Greater Houston Partnership and the city.

The trip follows a personal letter sent last week in which Mayor Parker urged President Obama to cease current efforts to terminate the Constellation program. “Human space flight is vital to the Houston economy,” Parker wrote. “The Constellation program would help our Johnson Space Center workforce transition effectively as the Shuttle is retired from active service. Without Constellation, we could lose anywhere from 4,000 to 7,000 high-tech jobs. The economic impact to Houston and the region would be devastating, on the order of $560 million.”

Mayor Parker is a strong supporter of expansion of light rail in Houston and she wants to make sure the Federal Transit Administration knows that. The President’s budget proposal includes $900 million for the next phase of rail. “I strongly believe the funding is secure,” said Parker. “However, due to the revelations of the last few weeks and the ongoing district attorney’s investigation, it is important that Washington hear from me that Houston remains committed to this project.”

Concerned about an apparent lack of transparency, the mayor appointed transition teams to look at METRO’s finances, regional coordination, light rail plans and basic services. She has called for new management at the transit agency. To that end, she will be announcing new city appointees for the METRO board later this week.

[713 To 214]

Obviously Atlanta is running much better than in Houston. Development their is much more appealing, than it is in Houston. Walkable shopping districts and all. They are even developing a street from scratch that will be their on version of the Magnificent Mile, you will never see Houston develop anything like this. You can ride MARTA to their uptown area (Buckhead) and are able to walk to destinations from their. Its not as walkable as a downtown, but its much more walkable than uptown Houston. Go a head and say how well Houston is doing compared to other cities in this economy, but its really official, Houston has lost the edge on innovation in had in years past. Its just a large mediocre rural/suburban/semi-urban city. And people wonder why the city can't be taken serious, its a huge mess.

I agree with pretty much everything you've stated. . .especially the "large mediocre rural/suburban/semi-urban city" part. A friend of mine who lives near TSU and I had a discussion this weekend about this same issue while he was visiting Dallas. His words were "Houston seems to celebrate mediocrity." Even though he owns property in the Medical Center and 3rd Ward (very near the proposed University Line) he's made the decision to just rent out his properties and move away for what he perceives to be a better quality of life . . .in Dallas.

Of course, it's NO secret that I favor Dallas over Houston, AND I certainly am no fan of the bumbling morons at METRO, but I was still hoping METRO would get its act together and build these lines. I NEVER believed that they would be built by the proposed 2013 revenue service date, but I did have hope that they would be built by 2017 or so. Now. . .not so much. i think the new mayor is wise to "scrub" METRO from top to bottom. The leadership running that agency has been a BIG part of the problem with these rail lines, Culberson notwithstanding.

[Coaster]

I have a friend who thinks Dallas celebrates mediocrity too. He said that many of the residents tend to exaggerate its importance to the world and quality of life issues when in fact it is truly the epicenter of generic. And so he moved away to Houston where the quality of life is better. I guess that means Dallas sucks.

[AtticaFlinch]

I have a friend who think both Dallas and Houston suck, all cities in the world suck and that the people who populate them suck too. So, he moved into a tiny cabin in Montana and started mailing incendiary packages across the US.

I guess his opinion must be right, because it's an opinion and my story is anecdotal, and everyone knows it's proof positive of a fact if I can support it with an anecdotal opinion.

[713 To 214]

I have a friend who thinks Dallas celebrates mediocrity too. He said that many of the residents tend to exaggerate its importance to the world and quality of life issues when in fact it is truly the epicenter of generic. And so he moved away to Houston where the quality of life is better. I guess that means Dallas sucks.

It just means your friend is confused. However, I'm certain he'll have fun listening to the ongoing debate in Houston (about 30 years now) about whether Houston will ever have a meaningful rail system.

[citykid09]

Two main differences between Houston and Dallas...

2) Houstonians (in general) are far more concerned with cost and "assumed" practicality than Dallasites. I.E. we're cheap. Because of this though, Dallas is building a much better system than anything that we've got planned here. It doesn't have to fight traffice because most of it is grade-separated. You don't read about a DART-Rail collision every week because they don't have them. I would love to see how much money METRO has shelled out to repair trains and busses, settle win or lose lawsuits and how much additional maintenance we're paying for the at-grade system in comparison to DART. THAT is a story that Ted Oberg needs to tell.

Couldn't have said it better! I have been saying Houstonians are cheap, but after hearing comments on chron.com and talking to people, a lot of people would rather have a grade separate rail weather it be above, below, or in its own right of way.

[VicMan]

Couldn't have said it better! I have been saying Houstonians are cheap, but after hearing comments on chron.com and talking to people, a lot of people would rather have a grade separate rail weather it be above, below, or in its own right of way.

People may say things on message boards, but are they willing to walk the walk and pay the extra money for grade separation?

[citykid09]

People may say things on message boards, but are they willing to walk the walk and pay the extra money for grade separation?

Houston was never given the option to choose. There as never been an option given to the citizens offering a grade separate, or even a heavy rail system. I guarantee you that it a system like this was proposed that didn't go down neighborhood streets (Ive never seen this in any major city) the people would have supported it. Sure it will cost more, but it will be done right and in a way where people will want to ride.

[KinkaidAlum]

Cliff Notes to this post so far:

CityKid sports wood for Atlanta, 713 to 214 thinks Houston sucks and that Dallas is the Florence of North Texas, MarkSMU gets caught in numerous lies but continues to keep on digging his own hole, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

[713 To 214]

Cliff Notes to this post so far:

CityKid sports wood for Atlanta, 713 to 214 thinks Houston sucks and that Dallas is the Florence of North Texas, MarkSMU gets caught in numerous lies but continues to keep on digging his own hole, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

. . .but you forgot the most important note. . .METRO's University AND Uptown Lines probably won't be built any time in the foreseeable future.

[713 To 214]

You have a long history of being confused. . . .

I'm one of the first members of this board, and I've seen posters like you come and go. Most of them either get suspended or banned. I'm still here giving my opinion. . .and my opinion is that Houston METRO's attempts to build a rail system have been a joke, largely due to the people running the agency. If the Uptown/University Lines aren't built in the foreseeable future, it should come as no surprise.

[mfastx]

Know your history before you spout nonsense as if it's fact.

http://www.chron.com...al/3278581.html

Reading that article, all I can say is WOW. The voters of 1983 REALLY screwed us over. I wish I could have been old enough to vote back then, but it's not like it would have made much difference.

[citykid09]

Know your history before you spout nonsense as if it's fact.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/3278581.html

Well I guess that was the fault of the citizens back in the day and their chosen leader. A few years ago you could have blamed it on Tom Delay and I guess his actions have spilled over into what we are left with today. Can you imagine how much better the city would have been if that had went through in 1983 for $2 billion? Wow, what a loss!

I wouldn't suppose its too late to try for a better rail system now.

[Highway6]

You have a long history of being confused. And since Dallas' rail system is practically useless to 95% of Dallasonians the debate is over whether Dallas built a meaningful one. They didn't. Live with it.

Coaster.. Exaggerating doesn't help. Pulling that 95% figure out of your arse does not help.

If you want to call all the "Grade separate every foot of track" Dart homers out... then just point out that a lot of their system downtown runs at grade, next to cars and pedestrians.

The only real difference between us and Dart, is one is primarily a commuter system, the other, a local system. We can all argue which needs to come first.. Most people in Houston would agree the local network needed to come first. Maybe that wasn't the case for Dallas. Maybe their business districts are fewer and farther between. Maybe the points of interest are closer together. Maybe they didn't have the awesome and far reaching HOV/P&R system we have so they had to include commuter from the get go.

Everyone should stop being homecity homers and look at both objectively because from a connectivity standpoint, they're not so different.

Dart Connectivity Pros:

6 stations CBD

2 medical centers

NBA arena

Cotton Bowl/Fair Park

2 museum/art districts

Deep Ellum ( Their Montrose )

White Rock Lake ( Their Primary Recreation area)

2 Universities ( TWU, SMU )

Convention Center

MetroRail Connectivity Pros:

8 stations CBD

1 medical center

NBA, MLB, NFL stadium

2 musuem/art districts

Montrose

2 Other business districts

City's main shopping district

Herman Park ( 1 of our 2 primary recreation areas)

5 Universities ( Rice, UST, TSU, UH, UHD )

Convention Center

I don't know how many Dallas business districts their system doesn't reach... but I know ours won't reach Greenspoint and the Energy Corridor, 2 of our top 6.

They dont reach UTD or Dallas Baptist U... We don't reach HBU.

Theirs doesn't reach their main shopping district ( Dallas Galleria).. ours will not adequately reach Memorial Park

They don't reach their Uptown. We will not adequately serve half the Uptown commercial buildings on the East side of the Loop.

Both systems will be far from perfect even when built out because 600 square miles is a lot of ground to cover.

3 of our lines will primarily be just to reach residences. They won't add business or cultural districts connections. They will be non-essential until the time comes when they connect to CRT or airports. We'll have roughly 25 stations on all lines that will only be for residential access.

Dart has approx 30 stations outside a mile from downtown.... I don't know Dallas well enough, but I'm guessing 2/3s of those aren't connecting business or cultural or educational areas.... only residential or equivalent to our P&Rs

The outlying commuter aspects of their systems seems nice enough. We may not need to elevate every foot of it, but I'm sure our commuter lines will be horizontally isolated from all vehicle and pedestrian traffic as it should be when the time comes and that would accomplish the same thing.

I don't know all their expansion plans.. but I do know they are planning on running a streetcar line that connects the downtown with the nearby uptown, so that helps build their inner city network and solves one major mark against their system.

City Kid, Trae, all MetroRail sucks homers...... Heavy gauge, subway stations do not a system make, and there are plenty systems around the county and world that include at-grade stations and trains running next to vehicles in urban areas. You sound like children when you praise aspects of other systems just because they fit your definition of urban (nyc)

Coaster, other Houston homers... even though its a suburban system.. Dart's connectivity seems to roughly match Metrorail's in areas of interest served, even if ours is better in usability with a higher # of stations per area of interest served... so really, all the Dart sucks comments are equally as childish. They are two different cities with different needs when they started their systems. Eventually we will have the commuter aspect to match Dart, and eventually Dart could add on enough inner network lines to rival ours.

[IronTiger]

Cliff Notes to this post so far:

CityKid sports wood for Atlanta, 713 to 214 thinks Houston sucks and that Dallas is the Florence of North Texas, MarkSMU gets caught in numerous lies but continues to keep on digging his own hole, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Well, CityKid said some "facts" that weren't true, and almost everyone agrees that METRO sucks and Annise Parker needs to do something about it.

I'm still with the "private company with a government contract" idea.

[Trae]

City Kid, Trae, all MetroRail sucks homers...... Heavy gauge, subway stations do not a system make, and there are plenty systems around the county and world that include at-grade stations and trains running next to vehicles in urban areas. You sound like children when you praise aspects of other systems just because they fit your definition of urban (nyc)

Coaster, other Houston homers... even though its a suburban system.. Dart's connectivity seems to roughly match Metrorail's in areas of interest served, even if ours is better in usability with a higher # of stations per area of interest served... so really, all the Dart sucks comments are equally as childish. They are two different cities with different needs when they started their systems. Eventually we will have the commuter aspect to match Dart, and eventually Dart could add on enough inner network lines to rival ours.

Really? You're going to call me out like that? I never was a METRO hater. I don't think having all of the lines in a subway/heavy rail is the solution, but not all of what METRO is doing is right. You listed all the places it reaches, and it is a pretty good list of destinations. I'm glad METRO is connecting them all together....just not the way they are doing it. There needs to be more grade-separations. If the Uptown Line is not elevated at Westheimer and San Felipe, then METRO is really dropping the ball. That's a traffic nightmare waiting to happen. Things like that.

Edit: And DART does reach Dallas' main shopping destination, like METRO will do for us.

[JamesL]

Well, CityKid said some "facts" that weren't true, and almost everyone agrees that METRO sucks and Annise Parker needs to do something about it.

Is that a fact? For one thing, most people know very little about METRO and why they do what they do. For another, news headlines like "METRO provided safe transportation to 350,000 riders today, plans to do the same tomorrow" don't sell papers or newscasts. People hear about METRO when the news is bad.

Fun fact, though sales tax revenue is down almost 10% from last year, METRO is still ahead of budget. I think is was premature for the mayor to call METRO's financing plans into question without discussing it with them first.

[Highway6]

Really? You're going to call me out like that? I never was a METRO hater. I don't think having all of the lines in a subway/heavy rail is the solution, but not all of what METRO is doing is right. You listed all the places it reaches, and it is a pretty good list of destinations. I'm glad METRO is connecting them all together....just not the way they are doing it. There needs to be more grade-separations. If the Uptown Line is not elevated at Westheimer and San Felipe, then METRO is really dropping the ball. That's a traffic nightmare waiting to happen. Things like that.

Edit: And DART does reach Dallas' main shopping destination, like METRO will do for us.

Trae... aren't you the one always comparing us to Atlanta, posting photos of underground Atlanta stations as the way real cities build real rail? If I've gotten you mixed up with someone else, If that's all Citykid, then I do apologize.

I do agree grade separation is called for in some places, but only the busiest of intersections. Westheimer/Post Oak would qualify.

The Dallas Galleria is at 635 and North Dallas Tollway. The existing rail lines do not go there and judging by the Royal to Farmers Branch station names on the Orange Line expansion map, it doesn't appear the proposed rail will be stopping near there either. Looking on Wiki, I see Northpark is actually bigger than the Galleria.. so yes, you're right. But still.. the Galleria is their 2nd biggest, tied with Grapevine Mills, and is getting the shaft.

Edit: Trae.. I looked back through last week's "Houston losing tallest city status" thread where it was all Citykid yapping about Atlanta... Forsome reason I thought I remembered you had chimed in. I do apologize for the mixup.

[Trae]

^^It's all good. Another example is when the light rail will cross Crosstimbers on the north side. That shouldn't be an at-grade crossing either.

[Coaster]

Coaster.. Exaggerating doesn't help. Pulling that 95% figure out of your arse does not help.

Well, I promise to stop if you can get everyone else to stop. But you can't so I wont. Pulling stats out of your butt, insulting people's intelligence, and creating imaginary scenarios to further one's agenda is the norm around here. Unfortunately so is popping up every now and again to disrespect everyone who cares about the city of Houston. And so the trolls (even the ones who have been around for half a decade) (what a horrific waste of energy) must somehow be dealt with. I make no apologies.

Seriously, I don't know what percentage of DFW or Dallas residents have absolutely no use for DART, but I'm sure it's way up there. Every time I spot a DART train in downtown Dallas (where I have been working for the last 9 months) it's either empty or almost empty. And the po-folks who you do see riding it don't exactly look like they are going to high paying executive type jobs.

[kylejack]

Ugh poor people, who the hell do they think they are? Only high paying executive types matter.