AtticaFlinch Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Evidence offered at trial showed that the individual had taken several carts from the store and never returned any of them. But, that's the point. That's what I was attempting to clarify earlier about the Natural and Probable Theory. Had the guy not taken several carts, and thus established a pattern of not returning the carts, then there would have been no case.I'm willing to bet all the stores nearby (Kroger, Fiesta, CVS, etc) have such a sign.HAIF homework: let's get some photos so we can definitively end this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 It would certainly be considered theft, you took those bags without express written permission! Maybe I use my own bags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I intentionally did not post the case name, full facts, or the holding of that case, This is usually done to hide facts critical to the holding of the case. It is the primary reason that judges demand that you produce a copy of the case for them to read, rather than rely on the lawyer's spin of the case to suit his needs. If this case is such a winner, let us see it.But, even though you hide the case from us, you still show why the case is distinguishable from the issue we were discussing. This defendant took numerous carts and never returned ANY of them. I am sure there are other facts that supported the cost of retrieval that you won't let us see. None of those facts are apparent in my example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverJK Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 so what if i take a shopping cart that has been abandoned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I'm willing to bet all the stores nearby (Kroger, Fiesta, CVS, etc) have such a sign.Yes. I too would bet that. I've never noticed one.. but I've never looked for them either since I'm not a shopping car thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heights Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 My only point is that, just as teenagers who take your car joyriding are not charged with theft (as opposed to Unauthorized Use of a Motor Vehicle) because they do not intend to PERMANENTLY deprive the owner of the property, neither can those using carts to transport their groceries be accused of theft.Actually, the reason that these teens are charged with UUMV rather than theft is because most of the cars "stolen" are valued between $1,500 and $20,000, which makes theft of that vehicle a state jail felony. Since UUMV is also a state jail felony, it is much easier to simply prove that the defendant used the vehicle without the owner's effective consent than it is to prove that he actually stole it and then used it. It really has much less to do with the joyrider's intent. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that even if there was video of the defendant actually stealing the vehicle and he made a written confession to intending to deprive the owner permanently of his property, he'd probably still be charged with UUMV if the vehicle fell in that rung of the value ladder.Even though the laws are class 'C' misdemeanors, they serve a useful purpose, as police officers cannot arrest shopping cart "thieves" unless specific facts give rise to the belief that the person intends to permanently deprive the grocery store of the property. As I posted earlier, the offense under the Commerce Code does not require anything about proving intent to deprive the store of the cart. All we must prove is that the person possesses the cart off the premises and does not have written consent from the owner to do so. And a police officer most certainly can arrest such a person and it happens all the time.And there is no requirement that there be any kind of sign prohibiting removal of the carts -- the only requirement is that the carts be marked with the owner's name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 As I posted earlier, the offense under the Commerce Code does not require anything about proving intent to deprive the store of the cart. All we must prove is that the person possesses the cart off the premises and does not have written consent from the owner to do so. And a police officer most certainly can arrest such a person and it happens all the time.And there is no requirement that there be any kind of sign prohibiting removal of the carts -- the only requirement is that the carts be marked with the owner's name.Interesting. So... what would constitute "written consent from the owner to do so"? Just a regular piece of paper with words to that effect? Does it have to be notarized? Just curious. How would the arresting officer verify this? Would someone call the grocery store's headquarters in San Antonio?It would certainly be considered theft, you took those bags without express written permission!Yes but the bags were handed to me. The cart wasnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Yes but the bags were handed to me. The cart wasnt.Suppose you bought ten bags of groceries. Would the sacker hand them to you or place them in the basket and roll the basket to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Suppose you bought ten bags of groceries. Would the sacker hand them to you or place them in the basket and hand you the basket?She would place them in the basket. They never hand me the basket anymore. Customer service has gone down the drain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Well, if they place your groceries in your plastic bag, and then place your plastic bag in another container, the basket, it stands to reason this basket is also expected to be taken home. QED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heights_yankee Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 How are they violating the law? If the grocery stores aren't pressing charges and post no notice on the cart advising people to keep it on-site, and have installed no countermeasures to keep the carts in place, perhaps they don't mind people taking the carts home. Do you take the plastic bags home? Did you pay for the bags?this is fiesta. this is why they have a truck dedicated to picking up their carts around the neighborhood. they don't think it's stealing. across the street from me there is an elderly hispanic couple whose adult, special needs granddaughter lives with them. they do have a car but the man uses it for work. the grandmother and granddaughter walk about 4 blocks to fiesta, bring their groceries home in the cart, leaving the empty cart on their curb for pickup. it never stays more than 48 hours. no, they don't return the cart. i imagine for a mentally disabled granddaughter and her elderly grandmother (who also take the bus on occasion when the grandfather is working) walking 12 blocks would be a little much.they are not thieves, litterers, arsonists or people who can't afford a car. that doesn't mean everyone should do it, but this household is certainly one anyone would like to have as neighbors (friendly, clean, quiet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Well, if they place your groceries in your plastic bag, and then place your plastic bag in another container, the basket, it stands to reason this basket is also expected to be taken home. QED! Nice! But you missed the obvious. I relinquished control of the basket when I emptied it of its contents. The sacker girl took it from where it stopped rolling. Then and only after the sacker had possession, did she proceed to place my bags in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J008 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I'm willing to bet all the stores nearby (Kroger, Fiesta, CVS, etc) have such a sign.I went to the Fiesta on 14th and Studemont looking for a sign and couldn't find one in the entrance way or in the parking lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Well, if they place your groceries in your plastic bag, and then place your plastic bag in another container, the basket, it stands to reason this basket is also expected to be taken home. QED! BAM! Conclusions brought to you by the natural and probable theory... The grocers set the precedent, so it's hard to argue logically with this. If grocers want to keep their carts, if it really is a big deal, there are two easily implemented methods to curb "theft": 1) stock only the carts with locking wheels and 2) stock only the pay-to-use carts. Otherwise, the stores need to look at their own culpability in their losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 If grocers want to keep their carts, if it really is a big deal, there are two easily implemented methods to curb "theft": 1) stock only the carts with locking wheels and 2) stock only the pay-to-use carts. Otherwise, the stores need to look at their own culpability in their losses.Right. Tidy it up the same way airports do. Put in a quarter to pull out a cart, get your quarter back when you return the cart. Either the borrower will return the cart or kids or indigent people will be happy to pull in some stray carts for some quick cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Nice! But you missed the obvious. I relinquished control of the basket when I emptied it of its contents. The sacker girl took it from where it stopped rolling. Then and only after the sacker had possession, did she proceed to place my bags in it. And then she gave the cart back to you. As an agent of her employer, she gave you the cart to do with as you pleased after the transaction had been completed. Essentially, this can be interpreted as her giving you the cart for your continued ongoing post-shopping use as a perk for doing business at her store. Sort of like a buy-one-get-one deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barracuda Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I went to the Fiesta on 14th and Studemont looking for a sign and couldn't find one in the entrance way or in the parking lot.That Fiesta has a driver who picks up shopping carts. One of my neighbors leaves a Fiesta shopping cart on their curb regularly, and it usually is picked up within a day or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 That Fiesta has a driver who picks up shopping carts. One of my neighbors leaves a Fiesta shopping cart on their curb regularly, and it usually is picked up within a day or two.Right, Fiesta is a responsible corporate citizen that expects many pedestrian customers to take a cart home. They accept this burden and clean up the neighborhood. The Dunlavy location picks up the carts with a pickup as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Right. Tidy it up the same way airports do. Put in a quarter to pull out a cart, get your quarter back when you return the cart. Either the borrower will return the cart or kids or indigent people will be happy to pull in some stray carts for some quick cash.Plus, this method will encourage shoppers to actually return the cart to an appropriate location and not just leave the blasted thing in the parking lot all willy nilly, just waiting to dent my car door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 And then she gave the cart back to you. As an agent of her employer, she gave you the cart to do with as you pleased after the transaction had been completed. Essentially, this can be interpreted as her giving you the cart for your continued ongoing post-shopping use as a perk for doing business at her store. Sort of like a buy-one-get-one deal. Wrong. She DIDNT give it back to me. She placed my items into plastic bags. Then she place the bags in the basket. Then she walked away to text on her cellphone. She never gave it back to me. She didnt roll, push, shove, or pull it to me or in my direction. She only touched the car to pull it close to her so she can fill it up. Then she walked away to text. The cashier was not done with the transaction. She kept ringing some lil bell for some strange reason. Plus, this method will encourage shoppers to actually return the cart to an appropriate location and not just leave the blasted thing in the parking lot all willy nilly, just waiting to dent my car door. I hardly call the driveway/curb an appropriate location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I hardly call the driveway/curb an appropriate location. He was referring to a cart return system. Put the cart back, get your quarter deposit back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 He was referring to a cart return system. Put the cart back, get your quarter deposit back.Make it a dollar deposit, and then the whole system pays for itself when drivers are sent out to fetch the wayward buggies. Or hell, like you said a moment ago, it'll be a get-paid-quick task to help the homeless buy that "sandwich" instead of simply begging me for a quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 He was referring to a cart return system. Put the cart back, get your quarter deposit back.Ah yes. You are correct.EDIT: He? I thought it was a "She" all this time. Ugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Hm, if that's true, my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Ah yes. You are correct. EDIT: He? I thought it was a "She" all this time. Ugh. We haven't yet had the gay marriage referendum pop up on our ballots, so all those references I've made to my wife in the past can be taken quite definitively as proof of my gender. The more you know... Hm, if that's true, my bad. Nope, you were right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 We haven't yet had the gay marriage referendum pop up on our ballots, so all those references I've made to my wife in the past can be taken quite definitively as proof of my gender. The more you know... Nope, you were right. Ah... Your more aggressive-sounding posts now make much more sense in light of this new information. Sorry about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Ah... Your more aggressive-sounding posts now make much more sense in light of this new information. Sorry about that... As much as I like talking about my balls, let's digress back to shopping about shopping carts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 As much as I like talking about my balls, let's digress back to shopping about shopping carts...Shopping about shopping carts, that must be what you call it when you gank one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 As much as I like talking about my balls, let's digress back to shopping about shopping carts... Don't worry... one day if they're either (1) on fire, or (2) strewn about the neighborhood, they'll get a thread on HAIF of their own! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee_in_TX Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Anyone who honestly thinks that businesses really don't care that their shopping carts migrate, I would love some of what you're drinking. It's a money drain, plain and simple. Why do they not have cart locks? I don't know, but it is not to encourage people to take them home.Anyone who thinks there is implied consent due to a store failing to put C-4 in the carts, I'd also like some of what you're drinking.IMHO (for those being serious) this thread has gotten silly. No one benefits from stolen carts. And if someone 'needs' to cart their groceries home, they certainly should then take the cart back on their next trip. As is evidenced by the scores of abandoned carts, that is not the case.Do I think HPD should set up a cart task force? No. Do I think there is anything right, morally or legally about carting your groceries home and dumping the cart on the side of the road? Absolutely not.My $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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