President Obama

[RedScare]

Thanks for the link! I should have just said "public hospitals".

And, I should have said that I was referring to Texas only, as I am not sure how other states do it.

[AtticaFlinch]

My family went through a formal process on Galveston Island. They were documented, their last names chopped up, and given a few dollars to start their new life.

I'm sure you were sufficiently outraged upon learning of this bit of socialistic largesse. I'm sure a charity would have been available to hand a few dollars over had the blasted government not decided to be so intrusive and big. The commies.

The example I stated with the fake SSNs did file tax returns but I don't know what happened after that. Maybe they were valid numbers that were still in use? Some were paid in cash though and we didn't report the payment [shame on us].

Er... So... You broke the law? Seems contradictory to get upset about people entering the country illegally, and then turning around and illegally giving them an unreported paycheck. You've just lost the ability to rail against illegal immigrants because they've entered the country illegally because... well... obviously the letter of the law isn't the real concern. So, what is the real concern about illegals?

Don't forget that children's breakfast and lunches are paid for at school as well.

Considering the amount of work contributed and the willingness to work jobs most Americans consider to be beneath them, I think it's a fair trade.

[Hartmann]

I'm sure you were sufficiently outraged upon learning of this bit of socialistic largesse. I'm sure a charity would have been available to hand a few dollars over had the blasted government not decided to be so intrusive and big. The commies.

Nope, not at all. I'm all for making it easier to get into this country. Making people wait months for paperwork to be processed or making the language in the paperwork so much legalese that no one can understand is stupid. If we're the land of opportunity then we have to be it for everyone, not just those that can afford to hire a lawyer.

Er... So... You broke the law? Seems contradictory to get upset about people entering the country illegally, and then turning around and illegally giving them an unreported paycheck. You've just lost the ability to rail against illegal immigrants because they've entered the country illegally because... well... obviously the letter of the law isn't the real concern. So, what is the real concern about illegals?

I didn't break the law, the company I worked for did and I left soon after due to my not seeing eye-to-eye with other "dealings" that were happening. Needless to say, that company no longer exists.

Considering the amount of work contributed and the willingness to work jobs most Americans consider to be beneath them, I think it's a fair trade.

I never said I had a problem with it.

[gto250us]

It is rather insane to have laws on the books which make an activity (namely crossing the US border from another country without proper documentation) of individuals illegal and then governments tell the local law enforcement agencies that the can not enforce those laws.

[AtticaFlinch]

Nope, not at all. I'm all for making it easier to get into this country. Making people wait months for paperwork to be processed or making the language in the paperwork so much legalese that no one can understand is stupid. If we're the land of opportunity then we have to be it for everyone, not just those that can afford to hire a lawyer.

I didn't break the law, the company I worked for did and I left soon after due to my not seeing eye-to-eye with other "dealings" that were happening. Needless to say, that company no longer exists.

I never said I had a problem with it.

I misinterpreted. My bad.

[AtticaFlinch]

It is rather insane to have laws on the books which make an activity (namely crossing the US border from another country without proper documentation) of individuals illegal and then governments tell the local law enforcement agencies that the can not enforce those laws.

Is that what's happening? I suppose all those border patrol agents don't actually exist, and I suppose all those backhoes headed towards the border to build the second largest wall in the history of mankind is all part of my imagination. (Oddly, the Great Wall of China was to keep out people intent on raping, pillaging and plundering, not people who were merely trying to eke out an existence.) Border Patrol's annual budget is $10.1 billion dollars and the border fence has been projected to cost $6.5 billion over the next 20 years. It doesn't really sound as if we're not trying to discourage illegal immigration, but what do I know?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Customs_and_Border_Protection

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/systems/mexico-wall.htm

[gto250us]

Is that what's happening? I suppose all those border patrol agents don't actually exist, and I suppose all those backhoes headed towards the border to build the second largest wall in the history of mankind is all part of my imagination. (Oddly, the Great Wall of China was to keep out people intent on raping, pillaging and plundering, not people who were merely trying to eke out an existence.) Border Patrol's annual budget is $10.1 billion dollars and the border fence has been projected to cost $6.5 billion over the next 20 years. It doesn't really sound as if we're not trying to discourage illegal immigration, but what do I know?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Customs_and_Border_Protection

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/systems/mexico-wall.htm

True, but the resources of the BT is sort of like pissing on a forest fire. As far as the fence goes, parts of it are turning up in recycling centers.

[RedScare]

It is rather insane to have laws on the books which make an activity (namely crossing the US border from another country without proper documentation) of individuals illegal and then governments tell the local law enforcement agencies that the can not enforce those laws.

How do you propose local law enforcement enforce those laws without violating the Constitution? What would be the probable cause for stopping people to "check their papers", simply because they do not look like you?

[gto250us]

How do you propose local law enforcement enforce those laws without violating the Constitution? What would be the probable cause for stopping people to "check their papers", simply because they do not look like you?

Simple, confirming one legal status in the US should be deemed a reasonable search not unreasonable. That will come in time.

[gto250us]

How do you propose local law enforcement enforce those laws without violating the Constitution? What would be the probable cause for stopping people to "check their papers", simply because they do not look like you?

A person who appears to have limited means of support and who was obviously born in another nation should provide enough probable cause for an investigation.

Bottom line illegal immigrants are breaking the law and are thus criminals. They should not be protected from prosecution. It should be no different than any other criminal.

[AtticaFlinch]

Bottom line illegal immigrants are breaking the law and are thus criminals. They should not be protected from prosecution. It should be no different than any other criminal.

There's not a person in this country who hasn't broken the law. I'm pretty sure this isn't the actual bottom line, but just the most widely accepted excuse to justify bigotry. I'm not saying you're a bigot, just that bigots frequently wear a guise of law and order to mask their bigotry. This may not apply to you, but if you actually take such a hard-line, legalistic, black/white approach to every single law on the books in our common law legal system, which I must assume you do if you're not a bigot, then I can't imagine ever enjoying life. Rigidity is dull.

[gto250us]

There's not a person in this country who hasn't broken the law. I'm pretty sure this isn't the actual bottom line, but just the most widely accepted excuse to justify bigotry. I'm not saying you're a bigot, just that bigots frequently wear a guise of law and order to mask their bigotry. This may not apply to you, but if you actually take such a hard-line, legalistic, black/white approach to every single law on the books in our common law legal system, which I must assume you do if you're not a bigot, then I can't imagine ever enjoying life. Rigidity is dull.

Ok - Point made. I guess the other end of the spectrum is that we just throw open the doors. Everyone comes and goes as they please and we all hug each other and sing Kumbaya. I guess that the bottom line is that immigration law should encourage folks of do it legally rather than illegally.

[AtticaFlinch]

Ok - Point made. I guess the other end of the spectrum is that we just throw open the doors. Everyone comes and goes as they please and we all hug each other and sing Kumbaya. I guess that the bottom line is that immigration law should encourage folks of do it legally rather than illegally.

Agreed.

Now back (kinda sorta) to the topic at hand. Illegal immigrants: What to do about the ones already here? Should we round 'em up and throw 'em out, or should we grant them gradual amnesty with restrictions and a path towards eventual citizenship? I say the latter. They can't be wished away so let's deal with the issue pragmatically and with level heads - which would necessarily include some provisions for healthcare.

[RedScare]

A person who appears to have limited means of support and who was obviously born in another nation should provide enough probable cause for an investigation.

Bottom line illegal immigrants are breaking the law and are thus criminals. They should not be protected from prosecution. It should be no different than any other criminal.

What about brown skinned US citizens? Why are they not afforded the Constitutional right to be free from unreasonable stops, just like the white skinned US citizens?

EDIT: I should probably add that entering the country without proper documentation is a CIVIL violation, punishable by a fine only. So, the "bottom line" is that undocumented aliens are not "criminals", since they have not violated any criminal laws.

[AtticaFlinch]

What about brown skinned US citizens? Why are they not afforded the Constitutional right to be free from unreasonable stops, just like the white skinned US citizens?

White people have to be stopped too. Only American Indians will be exempt.*

* Unless they look like Mexicans.

[gto250us]

White people have to be stopped too. Only American Indians will be exempt.*

* Unless they look like Mexicans.

BS - Color does not matter. There are plenty of lily white Canadians in the country illegally.

[RedScare]

White people have to be stopped too. Only American Indians will be exempt.*

* Unless they look like Mexicans.

Many do.

However, while chuckling at the obvious implications of checking papers of EVERYONE who does not appear to be native to America, my point IS an extremely serious one. The US and Texas Constitutions forbid police officers from randomly stopping people to go on fishing expeditions. Since many anti-immigration advocates routinely suggest...or even demand...that local police stop and check citizenship status, and considering that the Constitution is a pretty big deal, I want to know how they propose to get from theory to practice. Just how DO you plan to LEGALLY get around the Constitution?

[BryanS]

The illegal immigration debate ... is over.

We lost.

Illegal aliens that have been crossing our border for the past 30, 40 years ... from Mexico... have been rather prolific in their reproduction.

And the children born to these illegal immigrants... over the past 30, 40 years... are all US citizens, by birth. And now this younger generation is having their children. Who are also US citizens, by birth.

So all those "illegals" you see going down the freeway... most of them are probably US citizens.

You should readjust your thinking, accept the fact that they are legal... and just move on.

The time to close the border, kick out illegals, check their papers, erect a fence, etc, etc. was about 1970. That was about the last year we could have made a difference. Exponential population growth since that time has permanently and irreversibly altered our demographics, for better or worse.

You're just screaming at the rain at this point. Focus your anger where you can make a difference, not over illegal immigration.

[crunchtastic]

A person who appears to have limited means of support and who was obviously born in another nation

You're serious, aren't you?

I'm just imagining what the little laminated wallet card for this field test reads like.

[AtticaFlinch]

Many do.

However, while chuckling at the obvious implications of checking papers of EVERYONE who does not appear to be native to America, my point IS an extremely serious one. The US and Texas Constitutions forbid police officers from randomly stopping people to go on fishing expeditions. Since many anti-immigration advocates routinely suggest...or even demand...that local police stop and check citizenship status, and considering that the Constitution is a pretty big deal, I want to know how they propose to get from theory to practice. Just how DO you plan to LEGALLY get around the Constitution?

I dunno. How do they justify the constitutionality of mandatory blood tests for DUI suspects on holiday weekends? How do they justify roadblocks and other checkpoints?

All they have to do is use the word "random" and it's then pretty much guaranteed to be immune to any objective oversight.

[RedScare]

I dunno. How do they justify the constitutionality of mandatory blood tests for DUI suspects on holiday weekends? How do they justify roadblocks and other checkpoints?

All they have to do is use the word "random" and it's then pretty much guaranteed to be immune to any objective oversight.

The mandatory blood tests are conducted after securing a search warrant signed by a judge. The Constitution allows for search warrants upon a showing of probable cause to believe evidence is being carried in the person's blood, in this case, alcohol. Search warrants have long been upheld as allowed by the Constitution.

Roadblocks are illegal in Texas. You are imagining that they exist. Checkpoints can be used in VERY limited circumstances, so limited in fact, that virtually no police department evers does them. If you know of one in recent memory, I'd like to know who conducted it, and where.

[gto250us]

I was stopped at one on the HWY between Corpus and Brownsville one night. It was set up by boarder patrol. Also, the same thing on I-10 east of El Paso. Both of these were more than 15 years ago.

HPD set up a block on Woodhead between Westheimer and Richmond. They stopped everyone and checked licenses. This was about 10 years ago.

[IronTiger]

<Yawn>

The focus of this thread changes so much it's impossible to keep up. First it was Obama's school speech...then health care reform...and now immigration.

I vote we rename this thread to "Anything you want...: POLITICS EDITION!"

[gto250us]

<Yawn>

The focus of this thread changes so much it's impossible to keep up. First it was Obama's school speech...then health care reform...and now immigration.

I vote we rename this thread to "Anything you want...: POLITICS EDITION!"

Perhaps this can tie it all together. Does anyone think that Obama's speech to the school children really will encourage the illegal students to wash their hands so that they don't need health insurance?

[RedScare]

I was stopped at one on the HWY between Corpus and Brownsville one night. It was set up by boarder patrol. Also, the same thing on I-10 east of El Paso. Both of these were more than 15 years ago.

HPD set up a block on Woodhead between Westheimer and Richmond. They stopped everyone and checked licenses. This was about 10 years ago.

The Border Patrol operates a border checkpoint on US 77 at Sarita. That is not operated by local law enforcement.

Drivers license checkpoints (or checkpoints of any kind, for that matter) have not been legal in Texas since 1994, when the Court of Criminal Appeals outlawed them. You were not stopped at a HPD checkpoint. Don't know what traffic jam you were caught up in, but it was not a checkpoint.

[gto250us]

The Border Patrol operates a border checkpoint on US 77 at Sarita. That is not operated by local law enforcement.

Drivers license checkpoints (or checkpoints of any kind, for that matter) have not been legal in Texas since 1994, when the Court of Criminal Appeals outlawed them. You were not stopped at a HPD checkpoint. Don't know what traffic jam you were caught up in, but it was not a checkpoint.

I guarantee that HPD was stopping and checking all cars on Woodhead. I got stopped and they wrote me up for expired inspection sticker. They were pretty much their usual pricks about it all too. This was around 1997-1999.

[AtticaFlinch]

<Yawn>

The focus of this thread changes so much it's impossible to keep up. First it was Obama's school speech...then health care reform...and now immigration.

I vote we rename this thread to "Anything you want...: POLITICS EDITION!"

Well... Considering everything that pisses off conservatives is Obama's fault (the lil debbil!), and the thread is titled "The Chronicles of Obama," it's appropriately named.

Anyhow, did you hear what Obama did? He made Ms O'Leary's cow kick that kerosene lantern that started the Great Chicago Fire of 1871. It's the truth!!

[AtticaFlinch]

The Border Patrol operates a border checkpoint on US 77 at Sarita. That is not operated by local law enforcement.

Drivers license checkpoints (or checkpoints of any kind, for that matter) have not been legal in Texas since 1994, when the Court of Criminal Appeals outlawed them. You were not stopped at a HPD checkpoint. Don't know what traffic jam you were caught up in, but it was not a checkpoint.

They have them in Austin on I-35 on a random basis. The way they skirt the law is by calling them "Multi-Jurisdictional Task Forces." You see, their supposed primary purpose is to flush out drug smuggling coming from Mexico, but if they happen to nab some drunks too, well... that's just dandy. Oddly, these checkpoints tend to be in the southbound lanes, headed towards Mexico, not away from it. Very curious, but still slightly legal... sorta.

[gto250us]

Well... Considering everything that pisses off conservatives is Obama's fault (the lil debbil!), and the thread is titled "The Chronicles of Obama," it's appropriately named.

Anyhow, did you hear what Obama did? He made Ms O'Leary's cow kick that kerosene lantern that started the Great Chicago Fire of 1871. It's the truth!!

The political spectrum is now dominated by the wackos at both of the extremes. The Bush II era pushed the pendulum way too far to the right. As a result, things are now swinging way to far to the left. The rational folks who sit in the middle end up getting screwed either way. This is what sucks.

[AtticaFlinch]

The political spectrum is now dominated by the wackos at both of the extremes.

I don't know. The loudest wackos seem to be shouting from the right, but you're right about Bush II's pushing us far to the right though. What's considered left wing these days would have been considered fairly moderate only three decades ago. The disparity is in that the radicals on the right have been lent legitimacy by news outlets like Fox News and the Wall Street Journal while the radicals on the left, the really radical lefties, are still considered wackos by everyone, including the media.