Your approval of the President so far

[AtticaFlinch]

Not sure Ernie.....has there actually been 4 continuous months of economic and job GROWTH ? As I believe it takes 4 continuous months of economic and job decline to be considered a recession.

I found this neat little article that I think helps explain it. http://www.westga.ed...2000/dec21.html

Also, as far as the C4Cs is concerned.......look at the new declining car sales numbers and you will see that without a $4k incentive, people are staying away from the dealerships again. October is traditionally not a good month in the business, even in a GOOD economy though. November and December will be able to cast more light on the subject. With the C4C program......those extra 125,000 cars would have been a negative 125,000 units, making a 250,000 unit market swing from the previous year.

No doubt. Unless there's another incentive or the borrowing rates drop below the average 10-12% they're at now, the near future is dim for the auto dealers.

[Gooch]

More than you ever wanted to know about business NBER's cycle timing: http://wwwdev.nber.o...recessions.html

From CalculatedRisk:

NBER will not call the end of the recession until some time after real GDP is above the pre-recession levels (and other indicators too). That would take at least four more quarters of growth at 3%, so the end of the official recession will not be announced until late in 2010 at the earliest.

Also keep in mind NBER doesn't make cycle declarations until some time after they've occurred. They always operate in hindsight, which makes things a lot easier.

[gto250us]

20 Apr 1939 - New York Times - Millions in Berlin Hail Hitler as Leader -

25 Jul 2009 - New York Times - Obama, in Berlin ... 200,000 people came to hear him speak.

Be careful what you wish for.

The law of unintended consiquences.

[sarahiki]

20 Apr 1939 - New York Times - Millions in Berlin Hail Hitler as Leader -

25 Jul 2009 - New York Times - Obama, in Berlin ... 200,000 people came to hear him speak.

Be careful what you wish for.

The law of unintended consiquences.

I don't get it... are you suggesting that because both leaders spoke in the same city, and the NYT covered both events, Obama is somehow like Hitler?

There must be more to your point than that, since it would be incredibly stupid to connect the two in that way.

[gto250us]

I don't get it... are you suggesting that because both leaders spoke in the same city, and the NYT covered both events, Obama is somehow like Hitler?

There must be more to your point than that, since it would be incredibly stupid to connect the two in that way.

Why do I need to explain the obvious?

Both were hailed by the populace as saviors of a nation which was perceived by that populace as headed for failure. The parallels are uncanny and are obvious to those who don't have their head stuck so far up Acorn's ass. Obama and the ultraleft thugs that he has in his administration will do much harm to this nation.

[VicMan]

But there were also a lot of differences..

Hitler scapegoated the Jews as a simple cause of Germany's economic woes, and the anti-Semitic population bought into it

But Obama's not scapegoating any particular group. If anything, I do not believe that he insinuated that there was a quick fix or a simple solution to a complex problem.

Also the US in 2009 never had to deal with overinflation.

Why do I need to explain the obvious?

Both were hailed by the populace as saviors of a nation which was perceived by that populace as headed for failure. The parallels are uncanny and are obvious to those who don't have their head stuck so far up Acorn's ass. Obama and the ultraleft thugs that he has in his administration will do much harm to this nation.

[gto250us]

But there were also a lot of differences..

Hitler scapegoated the Jews as a simple cause of Germany's economic woes, and the anti-Semitic population bought into it

But Obama's not scapegoating any particular group. If anything, I do not believe that he insinuated that there was a quick fix or a simple solution to a complex problem.

Also the US in 2009 never had to deal with overinflation.

The hyperinflation is waiting in the wings with the government printing money to purchase its own debt that others do not want.

Obama seems to be scapegoating those in this country who have been successful, the middle, upper middle and upper classes. He is moving the usual political dialogue from a left-right, liberal-conservative difference to a social, have-have not, rich-poor difference. That is very very dangerous. The same thing happened in Colombia in mid 20th century. Folks can deal in a nonviolent way with liberal-conservative differences. But when the differences turn to taking what I have to satisfy those who have not. It becomes more personal and WILL become violent. The operative word there is "taking" I will freely give some of what I have to help those who have less, but I will not let the govt make those decisions for me.

What I see the Obama admin and the Pelosi-Reid congress doing is pitting American against Americans and I predict that it will turn violent if things do not change at the midterm elections.

This country needs a strong middle of the road, independent party for the sane people in the middle, rather than the two polarizing choices that we currently have. Unfortunately, the independent parties always have some wackjob.

[sarahiki]

Why do I need to explain the obvious?

Both were hailed by the populace as saviors of a nation which was perceived by that populace as headed for failure. The parallels are uncanny and are obvious to those who don't have their head stuck so far up Acorn's ass. Obama and the ultraleft thugs that he has in his administration will do much harm to this nation.

I am reminded of why I've been avoiding this thread. One clearly can't seek complex thought, reason, or intelligent dialogue here.

[west20th]

Why do I need to explain the obvious?

Both were hailed by the populace as saviors of a nation which was perceived by that populace as headed for failure. The parallels are uncanny and are obvious to those who don't have their head stuck so far up Acorn's ass. Obama and the ultraleft thugs that he has in his administration will do much harm to this nation.

Ronald Regan spoke in Berlin and was considered (by some) "as saviors of a nation which was perceived by that populace as headed for failure". Was he "Hitleresque" also?

[gto250us]

Ronald Regan spoke in Berlin and was considered (by some) "as saviors of a nation which was perceived by that populace as headed for failure". Was he "Hitleresque" also?

Did Reagan try to take from you what you have worked all your life to achieve and acquire? That is what Obama is trying to do.

[west20th]

Did Reagan try to take from you what you have worked all your life to achieve and acquire? That is what Obama is trying to do.

He is? Hadn't noticed. What's he taken from you so far except your ability to come up with a rational parallel? Hmmmm...Hitler and Obama both spoke in Berlin....coincidence?.....I think not.....

[gto250us]

...Hadn't noticed...

I guess that you must be blinded by the light.

[west20th]

I guess that you must be blinded by the light.

Guess so. Educate me. What has he taken from me? Be specific please. No tin foil hat generalities.

[VicMan]

Even though there has been political divisiveness, it's not the degree that it was in Weimar Germany. Political parties are not hiring private militias. Discussing the "social, have-have not, rich-poor difference" in itself is not dangerous; what one needs to do is say that "rich people and poor people need to work together to enrich society" not the Hugo Chavez-like antagonism towards the rich.

In regards to "But when the differences turn to taking what I have to satisfy those who have not." - The government is not forcibly seizing private property like in the communist takeover of Cuba. The government is simply trying to restructure a few businesses to make them more profitable. Whether that works or doesn't work is a matter of debate, but I don't think the Obama administration created a Weimar-like environment.

The hyperinflation is waiting in the wings with the government printing money to purchase its own debt that others do not want.

Obama seems to be scapegoating those in this country who have been successful, the middle, upper middle and upper classes. He is moving the usual political dialogue from a left-right, liberal-conservative difference to a social, have-have not, rich-poor difference. That is very very dangerous. The same thing happened in Colombia in mid 20th century. Folks can deal in a nonviolent way with liberal-conservative differences. But when the differences turn to taking what I have to satisfy those who have not. It becomes more personal and WILL become violent. The operative word there is "taking" I will freely give some of what I have to help those who have less, but I will not let the govt make those decisions for me.

What I see the Obama admin and the Pelosi-Reid congress doing is pitting American against Americans and I predict that it will turn violent if things do not change at the midterm elections.

This country needs a strong middle of the road, independent party for the sane people in the middle, rather than the two polarizing choices that we currently have. Unfortunately, the independent parties always have some wackjob.

[august948]

Why do I need to explain the obvious?

Both were hailed by the populace as saviors of a nation which was perceived by that populace as headed for failure. The parallels are uncanny and are obvious to those who don't have their head stuck so far up Acorn's ass. Obama and the ultraleft thugs that he has in his administration will do much harm to this nation.

Yeah...I think you need to crack open a book or two on the pre-WWII Weimar republic in Germany. The parallels are nebulous at best. The conditions leading up to the Nazi takeover in the 30's were far, far worse than anything we've ever seen in the US. The country was a new democracy imposed after imperial rule, facing true hyperinflation of a sort we've never seen here and under severe economic and military restrictions imposed after WWI. That's the sort of environment that can lead to a dictatorship. We are nowhere close to that and are not in any danger of it happening in the foreseeable future.

[gto250us]

The government is simply trying to restructure a few businesses to make them more profitable.

When was the last time the government successfully restructured any business? Yes, some businesses stretched and broke rules. Took undue risk. They should have suffered the consequences instead of being bailed out. The Bush and Clinton admins were way too lax in enforcing the existing laws and regs, now Obama is going too far the other way.

The polarization is not good. My main point with the Hitler comparison is to point out how far the polarization has gone. There are folks who truly believe that the differences in the country are that wide. For someone who campaigned on uniting this country I see that he has only driven the two sides further apart. He has repeatedly appointed staffers who are on the ultraliberal side of the spectrum that is not a way to unite. Obama is just another politician who will say what he needs to say to get elected and then once elected do what has to be done to reward those who supported him.

[august948]

When was the last time the government successfully restructured any business? Yes, some businesses stretched and broke rules. Took undue risk. They should have suffered the consequences instead of being bailed out. The Bush and Clinton admins were way too lax in enforcing the existing laws and regs, now Obama is going too far the other way.

The polarization is not good. My main point with the Hitler comparison is to point out how far the polarization has gone. There are folks who truly believe that the differences in the country are that wide. For someone who campaigned on uniting this country I see that he has only driven the two sides further apart. He has repeatedly appointed staffers who are on the ultraliberal side of the spectrum that is not a way to unite. Obama is just another politician who will say what he needs to say to get elected and then once elected do what has to be done to reward those who supported him.

I wouldn't be too hasty in assuming that Obama has gone the other way in regulating. He talks a good game, but behind the scenes his admin is just as in bed with wall street, et al. as his predecessors. Take a look at today's front page story in the Houston Press...http://www.houstonpress.com/2009-10-29/news/no-justice/ .

You are right on the money about Obama being just another politician who does what he has to do to get elected. But, the real support seems to be for the same corporate benefactors who always have their hands in policy.

[RedScare]

When was the last time the government successfully restructured any business?

The bankruptcy courts do it every day. Continental has done it twice. And, through the years, the government has bailed out the railroads, the airlines (remember 2001?) and the auto industry. The 1979 loan guarantees to Chrysler allowed Chrysler to rebound under Lee Iacocca, with the loans being paid back 7 years early. Today's Chrysler demise is completely unrelated to its troubles 30 years ago. Remember, this Chrysler is a spinoff from Mercedes Benz.

[RedScare]

The polarization is not good. My main point with the Hitler comparison is to point out how far the polarization has gone. There are folks who truly believe that the differences in the country are that wide.

I really don't think that a group with so much hatred for Obama that they make up things to hate him for should be blamed on Obama. Have some accountability. And, I'm not sure that a president who is trying to END our two wars can be favorably compared to Hitler. Perhaps the president who started those wars might be a closer match?

[KinkaidAlum]

Yeah...I think you need to crack open a book or two on the pre-WWII Weimar republic in Germany. The parallels are nebulous at best. The conditions leading up to the Nazi takeover in the 30's were far, far worse than anything we've ever seen in the US. The country was a new democracy imposed after imperial rule, facing true hyperinflation of a sort we've never seen here and under severe economic and military restrictions imposed after WWI. That's the sort of environment that can lead to a dictatorship. We are nowhere close to that and are not in any danger of it happening in the foreseeable future.

DING DING DING

We have a winner. I loved my Modern European History class back in high school. I have to chuckle every time I see some right winger parading around with an Obama = Hitler poster. They simply have NO CLUE.

I especially have to laugh when Obama is EXTENDING rights to some of the very same groups that the Germans were literally rounding up and burning.

[AtticaFlinch]

But when the differences turn to taking what I have to satisfy those who have not. It becomes more personal and WILL become violent.

Guh. Go ahead. Go have more teabag parties and talk tough about how tough you'll get when the time comes to get tough. And then go home and furiously whine on HAIF about how much liberals are doodoo heads and they awen't being faiw to you and youw fwiends.

Did Reagan try to take from you what you have worked all your life to achieve and acquire? That is what Obama is trying to do.

Reagan never taxed?

I guess that you must be blinded by the light.

Are you Manfred Mann? You know what? I am revved up like a deuce. I am another runner in the night. Maybe I am blinded by the light!

The polarization is not good. My main point with the Hitler comparison is to point out how far the polarization has gone.

The point of my polarizing rhetoric is to point out polarizing rhetoric is bad. If you don't buy that line of BS, then your [sic] a stupid, commie, libral [sic], *mouth beginning to froth* homo, gay, baby-killer!!!! But just so you know, your [sic... again] the one's whose [sic] stupid and not me and I'm not polarizing at all. Not one bit. Nope, not me. Your [sigh... sic] stupid. I'm always right.

[RedScare]

"The NBER is a private group of leading economists charged with dating the start and end of economic downturns. It typically takes a long time after the start of a recession to declare its start because of the need to look at final readings of various economic measures."

Has the NBER weighed in on end of "official" recession. Seems like it would take more than one quarter for that to happen, but I might be wrong.

No, the 3rd Quarter numbers just came out a day or so ago. And, realistically, even if the "official" recession has ended, it won't feel like it for many people, as job numbers lag the recovery. Even then, it is almost guaranteed that this economic recovery will not look and feel like other recoveries, as many of the bad policies of the past that encouraged bubbles, combined with a newfound consumer practicality will limit some of the gross excesses of the recent past. At least, that's what is predicted.

[gto250us]

Obama is doing his best to destroy the middle class. He wants to give it all the illegal mexicans.

Just more liberal entitlement crap. Welfare is good. Work is bad. Go see ACORN.

[sevfiv]

Yep, I just got the same forwarded message since my hat doubles as an antenna..

[AtticaFlinch]

Obama is doing his best to destroy the middle class. He wants to give it all the illegal mexicans.

Just more liberal entitlement crap. Welfare is good. Work is bad. Go see ACORN.

Buzzword is buzzword and buzz phrase causes Comrade Hussein Obama to buzzword! Buzzword, buzzword all you buzzword buzzwords!

Seriously, I think it amazing you reduced the entire Republican platform to 33 words. Bravo!

Edit: And good job demonstrating why moderate Republicans are disavowing the Republican party in droves.

Yep, I just got the same forwarded message since my hat doubles as an antenna..

I just LOLed all over myself, and there's no towel handy. Great.

[RedScare]

Cash for Clunkers Results Finally In: Taxpayers Paid $24,000 per Vehicle Sold Reports Edmunds.com

On October 28, Edmunds' "experts predicted that the SAAR for October would come in at 10.35 million. Today, the actual numbers were released, and the SAAR came in at 10.46 million, 110,000 higher than the number Edmunds used to calculate the $24,000 figure. So, does that mean that their figure should be readjusted to $13,333 ($3 Billion/225,000)?

[musicman]

On October 28, Edmunds' "experts predicted that the SAAR for October would come in at 10.35 million. Today, the actual numbers were released, and the SAAR came in at 10.46 million, 110,000 higher than the number Edmunds used to calculate the $24,000 figure. So, does that mean that their figure should be readjusted to $13,333 ($3 Billion/225,000)?

if numbers are correct, sounds like it would be divided by 235k. $12766

[musicman]

Salary raise was counted as saved job in stimulus report

WASHINGTON — The government's latest count of stimulus jobs significantly overstates the effects of the $787 billion program under a popular federal preschool program, raising fresh questions about the process the Obama administration is using to tout the success of its economic recovery plan.

An Associated Press review of the latest stimulus reports — which the White House promised would undergo extensive reviews to ensure accuracy — found that more than two-thirds of 14,506 jobs credited to the recovery act under spending by just one federal office were overstated because they counted pay increases for existing workers as jobs saved.

The inflated job count is at least partly the product of the administration instructing local community agencies that received money to count the raises as jobs saved.

Most of the inflated figures were like those cited in the 935 saved jobs reported by the Southwest Georgia Community Action in Moultrie, Ga. The agency, like hundreds of others collecting Head Start money, claimed all its existing employees' jobs were saved because they received a pay raise with the stimulus cash.

The Georgia program inflated the numbers even further by claiming the recovery money saved more jobs than the number of people it employs. The agency employs 508 people but claimed 935 jobs were saved because of confusion over government reports.

full article

[Jeebus]

Obama is doing his best to destroy the middle class. He wants to give it all the illegal mexicans.

Just more liberal entitlement crap. Welfare is good. Work is bad. Go see ACORN.

Disclaimer: The above poster does NOT represent the other intelligent conservatives who frequent the forum.

[AtticaFlinch]

Disclaimer: The above poster does NOT represent the other intelligent conservatives who frequent the forum.

I actually appreciate this. I'm one of those middle-of-the-road independents (though left-leaning) who appreciates a good conversation. I can't say with any finality that my opinion is 100% right, so I appreciate it when people actually give me reasons to ponder why I may be wrong. I glad there are people like Jeebus who don't swallow the whole line. I actually know plenty of articulate Republicans who give the debate sincere thought, and that bring up legitimate concerns with Obama and/or the Democrats. It seems the internet forces you into an all-or-nothing sort of deal. Jeebus, I'm glad people like you bring legitimacy back into the conversation. In all seriousness, thanks.