Shamrock Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 In defense of Walter's and Rudyard's only (this does not apply to bars generally in residential areas):Walter's and Rudyard's are generally regarded among local musicians and music fans as two of the finest music venues in central Houston. They bring alot of very good indie rock and folk acts to town -- and they are a valuable component of the local music scene. I point it out simply to differentiate them from other establishments that are simply bars or clubs which do not have an artistic component.Now, that may not be important to everyone, and that is fine -- unless people who do not like these venues make an affirmative choice to buy a home/townhome in the vicinity and then proceed to complain about noise and/or crowds. As long legal noise limits are observed, along with any applicable zoning restrictions, the venues would be following the law and playing by the rules.The problem is that these new residents did not adequately understand the area before they bought. They did not do the weekend late night drive-by prior to purchase. They did not realize the nature of the issue. That is a problem, but it should not be the venues' problem. They are attacking business owners who seem to be playing by the rules. Sole poprietors in some cases. They are fiddling with people's lives because they failed to do the due diligence they should have done prior to purchase.If there is a real claim for nuisance, then fine. Otherwise, the complaints don't really seem justified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 In defense of Walter's and Rudyard's only (this does not apply to bars generally in residential areas):Walter's and Rudyard's are generally regarded among local musicians and music fans as two of the finest music venues in central Houston. They bring alot of very good indie rock and folk acts to town -- and they are a valuable component of the local music scene. I point it out simply to differentiate them from other establishments that are simply bars or clubs which do not have an artistic component.Now, that may not be important to everyone, and that is fine -- unless people who do not like these venues make an affirmative choice to buy a home/townhome in the vicinity and then proceed to complain about noise and/or crowds. As long legal noise limits are observed, along with any applicable zoning restrictions, the venues would be following the law and playing by the rules.The problem is that these new residents did not adequately understand the area before they bought. They did not do the weekend late night drive-by prior to purchase. They did not realize the nature of the issue. That is a problem, but it should not be the venues' problem. They are attacking business owners who seem to be playing by the rules. Sole poprietors in some cases. They are fiddling with people's lives because they failed to do the due diligence they should have done prior to purchase.If there is a real claim for nuisance, then fine. Otherwise, the complaints don't really seem justified.That's exactly what is happening. Some people moved in behind Walter's and in just a few years have filed 212 noise complaints against Walter's, some during hours when the club wasn't even open.http://www.houstonpress.com/2008-05-08/mus...on-fights-back/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheeats Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 In defense of Walter's and Rudyard's only (this does not apply to bars generally in residential areas):Walter's and Rudyard's are generally regarded among local musicians and music fans as two of the finest music venues in central Houston. They bring alot of very good indie rock and folk acts to town -- and they are a valuable component of the local music scene. I point it out simply to differentiate them from other establishments that are simply bars or clubs which do not have an artistic component. Now, that may not be important to everyone, and that is fine -- unless people who do not like these venues make an affirmative choice to buy a home/townhome in the vicinity and then proceed to complain about noise and/or crowds. As long legal noise limits are observed, along with any applicable zoning restrictions, the venues would be following the law and playing by the rules. The problem is that these new residents did not adequately understand the area before they bought. They did not do the weekend late night drive-by prior to purchase. They did not realize the nature of the issue. That is a problem, but it should not be the venues' problem. They are attacking business owners who seem to be playing by the rules. Sole poprietors in some cases. They are fiddling with people's lives because they failed to do the due diligence they should have done prior to purchase. If there is a real claim for nuisance, then fine. Otherwise, the complaints don't really seem justified. WORD. To all of this. Wordy McWord. That's exactly what is happening. Some people moved in behind Walter's and in just a few years have filed 212 noise complaints against Walter's, some during hours when the club wasn't even open.http://www.houstonpress.com/2008-05-08/mus...on-fights-back/ Best quote from the article: Robinson wants the Pevetos to know they have a choice. They can learn to live with Walter's, or they can deal with her contingency plan for the property. "If Walter's closes, I'm turning this place into a 24-hour methadone clinic," she says. "And I will have it subsidized with your federal tax dollars. Don't think I won't. Addicts need help too." OMFG, I think I have a new hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I am glad that Walter's owner is bringing the fight to these neighbors. Would be interested to hear how that is going if anyone has heard anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Judah Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) Aha! Here's what Washington Ave. should look like:http://www.flickr.com/photos/mturnbull/3194619122/ Edited February 13, 2009 by N Judah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sowanome Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Aha! Here's what Washington Ave. should look like:http://www.flickr.com/photos/mturnbull/3194619122/Ha, that will never happen...Well, definitely not anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadrunner Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I really like what's happening in the Washington Ave area. These residents are ridiculous. If they did any sort of research in the last 5-7 years when purchasing a home, they should have seen this coming.Here's a random question, so the nightlife is blowing up on Washington, has already blown up in Midtown (and I don't think that will die anytime soon), so what area of town is next? I know Houston new trend is always moving. In 5 years are we going to be talking about the East End? The North side? Museum District?I feel like Washington was a pretty easy bet 10 years ago, but it really is wide open as to what's net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevfiv Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 It's not the nightlife in general - Old Sixth Ward is old enough to have had a lot of different neighbors and a mixture of residential, retail, restaurants, bars, and industrial is nothing new. The issue is the behavior of the patrons - more specifically the fighting, littering, peeing, vomiting, drunk driving, etc on the streets in this neighborhood. I can imagine waking up at 2:30 am to drunks in front of your house or someone vomiting in your yard can't be too pleasant... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Judah Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) Ha, that will never happen...Well, definitely not anytime soon.I think that overall development pattern is a good idea for the area. A lot of the other proposals, such as shipping a bunch of one-way streets through the area, reek of "built to fail." One of the main constraints of Wash Ave. is its narrow width, and I think the street in that picture is about the same size, so it sort of shows how it can be done. Edited February 14, 2009 by N Judah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heights_yankee Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Aha! Here's what Washington Ave. should look like:http://www.flickr.com/photos/mturnbull/3194619122/ very pretty indeed, but that is maybe what the side streets off washington should possibly look at, but even before all this development washington was a very, very busy 4 lane thoroughfare plus turning lane. there is nothing realistic about it looking like that picture since the street in the picture has one driving lane, two at the most. I think that overall development pattern is a good idea for the area. A lot of the other proposals, such as shipping a bunch of one-way streets through the area, reek of "built to fail." One of the main constraints of Wash Ave. is its narrow width, and I think the street in that picture is about the same size, so it sort of shows how it can be done. the one way streets are what may actually save a lot of the area, not doom it to fail. they would be, as i understand it, through the primarily residential sections where the development has caused the streets to be too narrow for 2 cars to fit at the same time. most metro areas are wrought with one way streets for this same kind of reason and houston, as always, is slow on the draw about knowing this is something that needs to be done. as far as the 2nd part of your comment, see my previous comment and i have to wonder what part of washington ave you've been going up and down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longhornguy Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 That looks more like a perfect fit for Center St. (Runs parrallel to Washington, one block north) I do agree that Washington is much wider than that street in Illinois. That street is pretty though, kind of reminds me of the Oaks of Old League City on FM 518. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Judah Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 (edited) very pretty indeed, but that is maybe what the side streets off washington should possibly look at, but even before all this development washington was a very, very busy 4 lane thoroughfare plus turning lane. there is nothing realistic about it looking like that picture since the street in the picture has one driving lane, two at the most. so people can't just take another street? did I-10 inside the loop not get expanded since the development started coming in? what about memorial or allen pkwy? I am sure Washington Ave is a very important street (with very important and extremely prestigious people living nearby, no slur against them), but to be honest if it's good enough for the downtown of the 4th-largest city in illinois it should be good enough for some little middle-of-the-pack neighborhood in Houston. Sometimes when a neighborhood gets really dense it doesn't make sense to expect it to be a busy arterial forever. the one way streets are what may actually save a lot of the area, not doom it to fail. Well, when I look at the direction Houston's neighborhoods are going my priorities are streetlife and walkability, and one-way streets are a great way to kill streetlife. there's nothing more "built to fail" than the idea that people are going to walk down streets that have all the ambience of a drag race (*especially* in a place like Houston). if you want to ship cars through as fast as possible, however, then one way streets are a fantastic idea. having said that I would be open to the idea of closing off portions of the street completely (making it a series of pull-in parking spots) and having the next street south work as a one-way eastbound lane and the next street north of Wash Ave work as a one-way westbound street. they would be, as i understand it, through the primarily residential sections where the development has caused the streets to be too narrow for 2 cars to fit at the same time. most metro areas are wrought with one way streets for this same kind of reason and houston, as always, is slow on the draw about knowing this is something that needs to be done. Well there might be some other agenda at work there...not sure what to say. I never thought the roads were too narrow, and if they seem that way they can just pave over those drainage ditches, can't they? I am not sure the neighborhood should encourage speedy access through their residential neighborhoods for the convenience of new residents (or for the convenience of people just speedin' through) any more than I think new residents should be able to falsely call the police on a neighborhood bar 212 times solely for the sake of trying to get it closed. as far as the 2nd part of your comment, see my previous comment and i have to wonder what part of washington ave you've been going up and down? Are you trying to say you don't think they're the same width? I think they roughly are - 2 lanes in each direction, take one lane away for parking, and you've got that picture (with greenlife, different setbacks, and the canyon effect of tall buildings). This is true over by the roundabout. Anyway I think it's strange that anyone would trade what's in that picture for a bunch of one way streets. Then when it has all the ambience of Fannin I guess we can all have something extra to complain about, except for that somebody somewhere who temporarily saved 4 or 5 minutes off of his or her morning commute. Anyway I don't live there, but I think a lot of places would kill for an opportunity like this to really build an urban neighborhood from the ground up. But if they screw it up there will still be other chances in/around Houston for the next several years. Edited February 15, 2009 by N Judah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 N Judah, you haven't been over there recently, have you? Washington is not too bad, but the side streets are literally impassable on weekend nights. This is not an issue of people speeding through the hood. It is an issue of not being able to move at all due to people parking on both side of the street, leaving only one lane. As people come from both directions, they cannot pass each other. Seriously, go over to Center Street right about now, and report back to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Judah Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 (edited) No, I don't like that area anymore. I haven't been there in months. I'll go back when it looks like Naperville Illinois.I understand the problem perfectly and have lived in places where that is the case. I just think one-way streets are a bad idea and should be avoided whenever possible. Edited February 15, 2009 by N Judah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 No, I don't like that area anymore. I haven't been there in months. I'll go back when it looks like Naperville Illinois.I understand the problem perfectly and have lived in places where that is the case. I just think one-way streets are a bad idea and should be avoided whenever possible.A one-way street is working fine on Gray at the Post apartments for walking residential/commercial. Its one of the better Houston examples of a walkable neighborhood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Judah Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 That's a little bit depressing. I don't think Houston is quite ready for actual neighborhood-style development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heights_yankee Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 (edited) so people can't just take another street? did I-10 inside the loop not get expanded since the development started coming in? what about memorial or allen pkwy? I am sure Washington Ave is a very important street (with very important and extremely prestigious people living nearby, no slur against them), but to be honest if it's good enough for the downtown of the 4th-largest city in illinois it should be good enough for some little middle-of-the-pack neighborhood in Houston. Sometimes when a neighborhood gets really dense it doesn't make sense to expect it to be a busy arterial forever.Well, when I look at the direction Houston's neighborhoods are going my priorities are streetlife and walkability, and one-way streets are a great way to kill streetlife. there's nothing more "built to fail" than the idea that people are going to walk down streets that have all the ambience of a drag race (*especially* in a place like Houston). if you want to ship cars through as fast as possible, however, then one way streets are a fantastic idea. having said that I would be open to the idea of closing off portions of the street completely (making it a series of pull-in parking spots) and having the next street south work as a one-way eastbound lane and the next street north of Wash Ave work as a one-way westbound street.Well there might be some other agenda at work there...not sure what to say. I never thought the roads were too narrow, and if they seem that way they can just pave over those drainage ditches, can't they? I am not sure the neighborhood should encourage speedy access through their residential neighborhoods for the convenience of new residents (or for the convenience of people just speedin' through) any more than I think new residents should be able to falsely call the police on a neighborhood bar 212 times solely for the sake of trying to get it closed.Are you trying to say you don't think they're the same width? I think they roughly are - 2 lanes in each direction, take one lane away for parking, and you've got that picture (with greenlife, different setbacks, and the canyon effect of tall buildings). This is true over by the roundabout. Anyway I think it's strange that anyone would trade what's in that picture for a bunch of one way streets. Then when it has all the ambience of Fannin I guess we can all have something extra to complain about, except for that somebody somewhere who temporarily saved 4 or 5 minutes off of his or her morning commute.Anyway I don't live there, but I think a lot of places would kill for an opportunity like this to really build an urban neighborhood from the ground up. But if they screw it up there will still be other chances in/around Houston for the next several years.a) people don't take washington to the same places they are taking i-10 so... this is clue number 1 that you dont have an accurate picture of the area and are not remembering the streets correctly.b.) one way streets will make the area MORE walkable b/c they may have room for something like, ohhh, a sidewalk. there is no room now for pedestrians to travel on those streets b/c cars are a constant source of danger. by making the streets one way, only 1 car will be passing at any time, making room for people to actually walk. people won't be speeding through due to the stop signs, if nothing else. washington is not a very walkable area, honestly. there are no sidewalks and cars are too crowded. just b/c something (store or eatery) is in walking distance does not mean that it's pedestrian friendly.c) pave the drainage ditches. yeah, great idea. then people can swim out of the neighborhood.d) that street you showed in naperville was definitely NOT the same size as washington ave. also, houston is the 4th largest city in the country. that's a lot bigger than the 4th largest city in the state of illinois.e) you don't live in this part of town or come to this area. while i appreciate that you have opinions about what we can all do to make it better, it's pretty clear you do not really know what the area currently looks like or what it's traffic patterns are. Edited February 16, 2009 by heights_yankee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Judah Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 (edited) a) people don't take washington to the same places they are taking i-10 so...Well I used to take it downtown all the time. But if you are correct, then I am even more convinced that it is a good idea to restrict traffic along Washington Ave. (or at least a designated stretch) in favor of parking on both sides.b.) one way streets will make the area MORE walkable b/c they may have room for something like, ohhh, a sidewalk. there is no room now for pedestrians to travel on those streets b/c cars are a constant source of danger. by making the streets one way, only 1 car will be passing at any time, making room for people to actually walk. people won't be speeding through due to the stop signs, if nothing else. washington is not a very walkable area, honestly. there are no sidewalks and cars are too crowded. just b/c something (store or eatery) is in walking distance does not mean that it's pedestrian friendly.Listen, I'm not talking about the little side streets, I'm talking about the main avenue itself looking like that picture. I know what you mean about not having sidewalks. Storm sewers with sidewalks on top could fix that.c) pave the drainage ditches. yeah, great idea. then people can swim out of the neighborhood.You know what I was talking about. Surely you have seen a storm sewer.d) that street you showed in naperville was definitely NOT the same size as washington ave. also, houston is the 4th largest city in the country. that's a lot bigger than the 4th largest city in the state of illinois.I think the streets are a similar width across from sidewalk to sidewalk (2 lanes in each direction), with the exception of wherever there is a turn lane. Sorry, sorry! I never meant to denigrate Houston in any way. However, you are absolutely wrong to think that the 4th largest city in the country has nothing to learn from smaller cities.e) you don't live in this part of town or come to this area. while i appreciate that you have opinions about what we can all do to make it better, it's pretty clear you do not really know what the area currently looks like or what it's traffic patterns are.Well it's true that you can't hold me responsible for its decline, but part of moving to a new neighborhood (or a new city) means that you have to keep your ego in check and accept the fact that what may have worked in NYC (or wherever you're from) might not necessarily work here, and that sometimes people may have ideas that are better than yours even though you may be accustomed to hearing otherwise. Edited February 16, 2009 by N Judah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Well it's true that you can't hold me responsible for its decline, but part of moving to a new neighborhood (or a new city) means that you have to keep your ego in check and accept the fact that what may have worked in NYC (or wherever you're from) might not necessarily work here, and that sometimes people may have ideas that are better than yours even though you may be accustomed to hearing otherwise.Except that your ideas are terrible. Washington is surrounded by heavy amounts of residential, north and south. Those people need to get to work. You can't just wipe out a major local thoroughfare like Washington because you like the pretty Christmas lights and tell everyone to take I-10 instead! I-10 does not run through their neighborhood a block from their house! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longhornguy Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 I'm going to throw another wrench into this conversation, but how does everyone think the Uptown Metro Rail line will affect Washington? That looks like it's going to be a very popular rail line and it's close enough to the Corridor to affect it in some way, either positively or negatively. Will anyone here be riding it to get to the Galleria/BLVD Place at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Judah Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Except that your ideas are terrible. Washington is surrounded by heavy amounts of residential, north and south. Those people need to get to work. You can't just wipe out a major local thoroughfare like Washington because you like the pretty Christmas lights and tell everyone to take I-10 instead! I-10 does not run through their neighborhood a block from their house!Memorial, Allen Pkwy etc. do. I think that neighborhood has more driving-to-downtown options than any other I've seen (and it's not like it's really that far from downtown, either). If you make it look like that picture it solves the parking problem, the walking problem, and will deter nonlocal drivers from using it. It doesn't even have to be like that for the full stretch of the street -- just several blocks should be enough, and to appease the "blame pedestrians first" crowd it could make sense at that point to have an eastbound one-way lane one block over to the south and a westbound one-way lane one block over to the north for the duration of those several blocks.The overall point -- and this ties in nicely with the other stuff on this thread about the 212 noise complaints, etc -- is that this would be the sort of thing they think about *before* moving there. Density is happening and soon the walkability issue will have to be addressed along the main street and soon somebody will have to make some tough choices. I'm glad the roundabout got built when it did because judging by some of the comments here I don't think something like that would have been built if they had proposed it at this point.Obviously if the sheer prospect of having something genuinely beautiful within Houston city limits incites such hysteria and hand-wringing then the "built to fail" crowd has won...but it's cool -- like I said, there will be many other chances coming up within the next decade or two. So don't get me wrong -- of course I really don't care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heights_yankee Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I'm going to throw another wrench into this conversation, but how does everyone think the Uptown Metro Rail line will affect Washington? That looks like it's going to be a very popular rail line and it's close enough to the Corridor to affect it in some way, either positively or negatively. Will anyone here be riding it to get to the Galleria/BLVD Place at all?i probably will. i am a huge proponent of public transport and would use it far more if it was better organized in houston. i can't get anywhere from the heights with a kid on the current system. when i lived in montrose, i took the old 82 all the time- to work in highland village, to the galleria for shopping, to downtown to meet my hubby for lunch. it's teh only bus worth a damn in the whole city (runs from downtown transit center to the beltway along westheimer every 15 mins, 24 hours a day). if the train works the way it should, i'll be happy to take it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Tripper Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Hi! See you at Reign! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heights_yankee Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 omg. i love that last picture. so much so i posted it to my facebook page. ha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmariar Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 From this week's building permits and liquor license applications, it looks like:(1) There's a new bar planned for 5219 Washington ("ADDITION AND CONVERT RETAIL TO BAR") - The Reddi Room moved to this location in 1995 - I was out of town then, but I think it must have closed soon after. Looks like there was a Viviana's Nite Club there in 1998, but its liquor license expired in 2006.(2) The Dubliner applied for a Liquor License (under the name "Auld Dubliner")(3) Busty LaRue's license application is still pending(4) The Social is adding a kitchen ("BAR/LOUNGE BLDG ADDITION FOR KITCHEN")This week, it looks like someone ("Maja Entertainment, Inc.") is opening a new bar at 4819 Washington. The liquor license lists the trade name as "Manor on Washington". The city has granted permits associated with converting retail into a bar/nightclub. As far as I can tell, 4819 Washington is/was a not-very-manorial dry cleaner across the street from Soma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
margokorin Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 Yep, it is right next to the jack in the box. Absolutely NO parking. Going to make this intersection even more of a nightmare than it already is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OkieEric Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Yep, it is right next to the jack in the box. Absolutely NO parking. Going to make this intersection even more of a nightmare than it already is.There's already a myspace for "Manor on Washington", though with little detail: LinkMy "shiny shirt" days must be over, because I have no desire to go to any of these places. I've been to most places along Washington and it's starting to remind me of downtown back in 2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 There's already a myspace for "Manor on Washington", though with little detail: LinkMy "shiny shirt" days must be over, because I have no desire to go to any of these places. I've been to most places along Washington and it's starting to remind me of downtown back in 2002Pearl is nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Pearl is nice.crowd sucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 crowd sucksYeah. I'm ever-hopeful, though. Seems like the d-bag crowd swarms otherwise cool bars for a few years after they open before moving on to the next conquest, leaving a chill bar to hang out. Examples: Dean's, NOTSUOH, 1820, Lola's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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