This Is The Type Of Development Houston Needs!

[citykid09]

I want to give another example. These are in Houston, but wouldn't it benice if they had retail and restaurants on the bottom levels? That would be so nice.

[VelvetJ]

Who determines whether that is better?  It is a preference.

I'm also happy with Houston the way it is.  It grows and changes.  Maybe we'll get more of that kind of development, maybe we'll get more big box development.  Houston has always been a place where people are allowed to try out development the way they want without crazy restrictions from a board trying to force an image of the city.  The city develops its image from its people and they way they want their city.  If the majority of people really wanted this type of development, some developer will realize this and build accordingly.  The truth is that regardless of the type, people will still patronize the shops, buy the homes, and rent the apartments.  Its a response to market forces.  This is how Houston grows and I like it.

If people change and want a particular type of development, you'll see a reaction by developers to change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know if I completely agree with you on this. There are people in this city that have come from all over the world, most of which are absolutely nothing like Houston. And most are from places that have more dense and pedestrian friendly type environments, simply because most cities of the world are like that. Because of this, I believe there are thousands of people that would choose to live in a more urban styled environment if given a affordable choice. That's one of the biggest issues with Houston, there isn't much of a choice. In most cases, it's either suburban styled or nothing. To think there are Houstonians that have no desire to walk to work, the grocery store, the movies, the cleaners, to 15 differenty types of restaurants, to the drug store, and to a bar or a club for a drink, is unrealistic.

I don't believe in a city such as Houston, it's as simple as "if people change you'll see a change in developers". Developers are out to make money, and if they choose to build in a city that allows them to do whatsoever they choose for as cheap as possible, they will do it, and there are TONS of examples of it in Houston.

If I understand citykid correctly, I also would like to see more cohesive types of urban developments in Houston. It's not about soley trying to be like someone else as much as wanting Houston to be the best it can be. Great cities are dynamic and have certain commonalities that make them great. It's like baking a cake. There are certain ingredients that all cakes have yet there are all types of flavors and styles of cakes that make them different. But Houston's bakers are proud of the fact that they don't use flour in their cake and don't seem to care because it's focus is on not using flour saves money. But wonder why it has a negative reputation in the bakery.

Those of us that criticize the city are familiar with it and know what it is, and very much knows what it has to offer. But many times the frustration comes from golden opportunities the city seem to miss out on that could make the city that much better. Or the lack of vision our leaders have. Or the lack of a forward thinking/ progressive/cutting edge spirit, a condition that unfortunately seems to be taking over the city.

Like Citykid, there is a part of me that do not want to be at the bottom of the list of our counterparts (Dallas, Atlanta, and possibly Denver). But with every two steps they make, we make one, and at times even take steps backward. That can be frustrating to those that want Houston to be the best it can be.

There are encouraging signs that indicate the city isn't totally stagnant, and more and more types of developments like posted in this thread, popping up are those encouraging signs. One can love and be greatful of a city, and still want it to make the correct steps to improve.

[Jonah]

Who determines whether that is better?  It is a preference.

I'm also happy with Houston the way it is.  It grows and changes.  Maybe we'll get more of that kind of development, maybe we'll get more big box development.  Houston has always been a place where people are allowed to try out development the way they want without crazy restrictions from a board trying to force an image of the city.  The city develops its image from its people and they way they want their city.  If the majority of people really wanted this type of development, some developer will realize this and build accordingly.  The truth is that regardless of the type, people will still patronize the shops, buy the homes, and rent the apartments.  Its a response to market forces.  This is how Houston grows and I like it.

If people change and want a particular type of development, you'll see a reaction by developers to change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I totally disagree with this point. The majority of the people living in midtown did not want that suburban CVS structure yet it got built. I'm positive they don't want an Eckerds or Walgreens or whatever other drug store is being built down the street in midtown. If these developers really listened to the people they would not have built there at all or they would have given it a more urban design.

[tw2ntyse7en]

...

[VelvetJ]

I love how everyones answer here, is to just "add retail to the bottom floor". Suddenly, with shops on the bottom floor of your apartments - you're dense.

I understand everyones desire to make Houston a better place, but the effort is no better than like immigrants who flee their country, come to ours, and then make it look like theirs all over again. You can try to re-make Houston into a San Fran, Chi-town, Big Apple or Bean town all you want - but at the end of the day, and under all the stucco & cheap brick facade, its still Houston.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But tw2ntyse7en, I don't think anyone is trying to re-make Houston into San Fran, Chicago, New York, etc. Houston will never look like midtown Manhattan and personally I don't want it to, and I believe most Houstonians feel the same. However, there are benefits and desirability to the type of urban characteristics those places have and I would love to see "pockets" of that in Houston. Just having a more pedestrian friendly/ more urban option makes the city that much better. It's sorta like critics of rail that say rail shouldn't be built because it's not going to solve Houston's traffic problem. Or it shouldn't be built because people aren't going to abandon their cars. No one is saying those things are going to happen, but there are many benefits to rail in a city like Houston, and it also gives Houstonians the OPTION of abandoning their cars. Also, not to mention it's just a cool thing to have. Just like pedestrian friendly styled neighborhoods with people walking the streets living there lives is just a cool environment to be in, IMO.

I know what Houston is and I try to be realistic about what it is. But at the end of the day it really is about Houston being the best it can be, and the city being dynamic and offereing different options plays a big part in that for me.

[kjb434]

Everyone of these developments that are urban in other cities were built by developers. They wouldn't have built them either unless they were going to make money.

Many projects are on the board for midtown right now. Some are mixed use, some aren't, but all are quite urban because they're is a need for it.

Many of them aren't covered by the Houston Business Journal or the Chronicle. I have heard of several projects that I can't mention because the information is not ready to be release by the parties involved. I was just lucky to be in coversations that they were discussed.

Projects like the Baldwin Courts I've know about for a while, but information was being kept quiet. Don't want people to speculate and build up hopes and the project ends up being canceled for one of many reasons. Some projects will put the information out extremely early for a sort of free advertising (such as Shamrock Tower). Many projects don't wan't too much out there because it is not definite.

The most important thing is that everyone of these projects whether mixed-use or not is by a developer and is there to make money. They aren't there as part of some commnunity development to make the city a better place. That's just a selling point to the community. If the residents and businesses in midtown were more pro-active to push for this type of development with the planning commision or even create some rules through the city to help set standards for types of construction (type of zoning). Things can be done, but the city and planning commision are stuck with its rules and not enough citizens are demanding something different. Most citizens will complain, but offer no alternatives.

About the CVS and Walgreens in Midtown. More Organized neighborhoods have worked with these chains to build facilities that complement the neighborhood. The heights is doing this and it was done for the CVS at TC Jester and Washington. The store was built closer to the main road with the parking lot on the side. I would have prefered the parking in the back for appearances, but you can win everything.

The citizens are in control. The developers have influence, but they won't protest these types of changes because it still allows them to develop. Concepts such as set backs, landscaping and parking layouts can be address. These things aren't too hard for developers to comply.

Personally, I see midtown as a work in progress. Midtown will probably not be fully realized and developed for a while. There is a lot a space over there to do wonderful things. Don't panic over a few bad things.

Remember, you can affect this.

[The Great Hizzy!]

^^^ Good post.

[VelvetJ]

VelvetJ said, "I don't believe in a city such as Houston, it's as simple as "if people change you'll see a change in developers". Developers are out to make money, and if they choose to build in a city that allows them to do whatsoever they choose for as cheap as possible, they will do it, and there are TONS of examples of it in Houston".

So kjb434, the above statement is untrue in Houston as opposed to Atlanta?

[Gary]

But tw2ntyse7en, I don't think anyone is trying to re-make Houston into San Fran, Chicago, New York, etc. Houston will never look like midtown Manhattan and personally I don't want it to, and I believe most Houstonians feel the same. However, there are benefits and desirability to the type of urban characteristics those places have and I would love to see "pockets" of that in Houston. Just having a more pedestrian friendly/ more urban option makes the city that much better. It's sorta like critics of rail that say rail shouldn't be built because it's not going to solve Houston's traffic problem. Or it shouldn't be built because people aren't going to abandon their cars. No one is saying those things are going to happen, but there are many benefits to rail in a city like Houston, and it also gives Houstonians the OPTION of abandoning their cars.  Also, not to mention it's just a cool thing to have. Just like pedestrian friendly styled neighborhoods with people walking the streets living there lives is just a cool environment to be in, IMO.

I know what Houston is and I try to be realistic about what it is. But at the end of the day it really is about Houston being the best it can be, and the city being dynamic and offereing different options plays a big part in that for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know that was well said. I've been one of the proponants of "geeez, these Houstonian's don't know what they have" but when you look at it from that perspective I think your right.

[kjb434]

Developers or the same no matter what city they are in. Developers who build the most pro urban environments are still doing it for money. The goodness of there hearts is not a reason to venture into these projects.

As for building as cheap as possible, that goes towards everything. I think some people equate "cheap" with lack of quality. Just because something is cheap does not mean it is not well built. Everything is built the cheapest they can build it unless the financier has a huge amount of money to embelish the project. If your're building building whether tall or short, you want to get the materials a good price. Developers usually find the best suppliers for them to give them the best prices for the construction materials. All this is an attemp to cut cost. Yes, the building is being built cheaper, but it is the same material. This happens everywhere.

Even in places with the strictest codes that require the developer to spend much more money to add things to his building, the developer has done a feasibility analysis to see if the project will be profitable in the end.

[NYC Texan3]

This is a great discussion. It feels a lot like the old board . . .

I have been thinking recently that Houston developers are different in that they are extremely timid about new concepts. Even when an urban amenity can be added inexpensively (like a coffee shop at street level), it doesn't happen for reasons that I can't pinpoint. However, I will offer the following potential reasons:

1. Unfamiliarity with urban concepts (should be limited to local developers)

2. Discomfort with mixed development and theories about the synergistic impact of those developments

3. An absolute conviction that Houstonians will not abandon their cars (I believe there is a great silent mass of people, especially mothers, who are tired of driving 3 hours a day . . . I'll save my proof for other posts)

4. Laziness due to the lack of options and lack of education in urban issues for Houston consumers

I do believe that the point I believe I saw about the lack of affordable urban options misses the fact that Houston has some of the cheapest housing in the country, even inside the loop (considering how far a buck goes), while most of the cities with urban lifestyles we admire are actually quite expensive. To that end, it boils down to a surplus of cheap, cheap land that is totally unregulated in its use . . . Makes me want to move to Portland. I want my Zzzzzzzzzzzz . . .

About to get off my soapbox, but my wife's April Fool's joke was that the apartment complex two doors down from us was being torn down to put up a gas station . . . there's something very wrong with the fact that that is possible.

[citykid09]

Look what lowes, Target and others are building in Atlanta.

http://larryfeltonjohnson.typepad.com/atla..._and_carto.html

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread...?threadid=71943

Urban Right! Come on Houston!

[DJ V Lawrence]

Bless your hearts VelvetJ and Citykid :-). Now check it, though I may disagree with these two on a few things on this thread, we ALL (including Velvet and CityKid) wanna see Houston on top. Thanx To the Kid for sharing this idea.

Here's my problem. Have you noticed what is on every northern journalist's complaint list about Houston? Sprawl. WTF is the problem with sprawl, yo? Like, that's the big deal? Like New York, San Francisco, Boston, and Chicago's architecture REALLY doesn't make you feel like a rat in a cage when you walk down a street?

Screw all haters. Time to set the record straight as to why we're better. We are the best city, in the best state, in the best country in the world. Better yet, we're the biggest city in Texas. Biggest. We love everything BIG in Texas. We love our space. Even those lofts being built in town; has anyone noticed how big and roomy they are on the inside?

We big! Gimme room! I may be only 175lb, but once again, us Texas dudes have something BIGGER than dudes in other states. Not to brag. It's just fact, okay? With that being said, we do not like our Texas Instruments bumping into people as we walk down the street. The ladies, same. Due to our genetic gifts from above, we need enough room to fit in our cars, to walk down the street, and close doors with ease. That's why all car, truck, and real estate commercials in Houston mention something about "lots of room, extended cab, large piece of land".

Ladies in Texas not only have somethings genetically better than those out of state, but they have a certain instinct that defies a Texan, quality. Thanx to my beautiful Texas mom, her spidy quality instincts rubbed off on me. We may be in the South, but count the number of luxury shops in the Galleria.

So to end this, you may be right. Maybe it's better to be urban for northern people. They can fit in studio apartments. But I'm Texan, dammit. I may poke an eye out when I turn a corner at 5th Avenue. Just a thought. I'm sure the fellows in this thread can relate.

[houstonsemipro]

I agree. Gimmie room! Those Atlanta projects don't have any room what so ever. Just park your car and go walking.

[NYC Texan3]

Have you ever tried NYC? I just got back from two years there last year . . . This whole car thing is way, way over-rated, and that's why we get dinged for sprawl . . . and the butt-ugly freeways seal the deal

[UrbaNerd]

I'll take a hybrid version, thankyouverymuch. Just give me room to park my big SUV, and give me a housing unit with a yard large enough for a sizable oak tree, and a place for my grill.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Have you ever tried NYC?  I just got back from two years there last year . . .  This whole car thing is way, way over-rated, and that's why we get dinged for sprawl .  . .  and the butt-ugly freeways seal the deal

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oye dude. I've been in NYC for a little bit as well. Got family up there. I prefer racing to work in my customed-out import car than with a subway that I may miss anyday. Also, our freeways? I've never seen anyplace in America with freeways as clean as ours, with the nice landscaping improvements ESPECIALLY during January 2004, the month before the Super Bowl.

I know everyone here realizes how big a difference life in New York and life in Houston is, and that EVERYTHING to due with the concept that these cities were built. But face it people; you have more room to build and more room to improve what you have with a city with a concept like ours. We can turn into a NYC if we chose to. NYC can't turn into H-town. They have to knock out Manhattan from scratch first to do that. We just gotta cram ourselves in and develop a subway system, and poof, you have yourself Big Apple two.

Houston's better. NYC Texan3 is still very cool. And us Texans still have very large Texas Instruments. NYC's Big Apples don't impress anyone.

[DJ V Lawrence]

I'm not for sprawl, but at the same time, I don't think we need to live the way Mahattanites do. It all goes back to whether your city was built for horses or for automobiles. Sure Houston was here before the car, and a certain part of Houston reflects that.

See you all at Home Depot this Saturday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yo, silly question; would an urbanized community raise the cost of living in that area. 'Cause, like, the cost of living in Manhattan is flat out crazy.

I love the idea of many different styles and varieties of communities available in one city. And I enjoy having a huge place available to me with a big backyard around $300,000. And I hope to one day DJ at the Home Depot.

[citykid09]

All I'm doing is trying to help and you people say you like it how it is????? I don't get it. That's why people look at houston in discust. Because it's one big suburb with nothing that intersting. Why not build something more urban? If People want to live in the suburbs they should move there, not bring them to the city.

Look what Kroger did in Buckhead Atlanta.

Thats really the front of the store, but you go in through the back where the parking lot is.

"This is the Kroger on Peachtree Street in South Buckhead. By all logic this is a shot of the front of the building, since it faces the sidewalk on the most well known and prominent road in the entire Atlanta region. Yet the locked front door has a sign identifying this as the rear of the store."

[MidtownCoog]

"Urban" is over rated! I don't think you could even define the word "Urban" if you tried to, Kid.

Houston has plenty of room to stretch out.

Why live like a rat in a cage?

[Subdude]

You're finally right about something. You don't get it. It far too easy to pass judgement from your soapbox way up in BCS. Try coming down more than one weekend every other month and live here for a while. Pay a few bills, see what city life is really like. Trust me, the last thing you'll ever care about is seeing how many businesses you can squeeze in one city block.. well, unless you're just a weirdo.

Don't make it personal. We've had way too many flame wars around here lately, and it's getting really old.

[DJ V Lawrence]

All I'm doing is trying to help and you people say you like it how it is????? I don't get it. That's why people look at houston in discust. Because it's one big suburb with nothing that intersting. Why not build something more urban? If People want to live in the suburbs they should move there, not bring them to the city.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the words of a disgruntled Jerry Springer guest: "OH NO YOU DIDN'T!! HOW YOU GONNA PLAY ME?! HOW YOU GONNA DISS ME ME ON NATIONAL TV?! FIRST, YOU CHEAT ON ME WITH MY MAMA, MY COUSIN, MY GOATS, MY..." oh wait, disregard the last line. I was suppose to stop at tv. But for real, to explain how I feel about being forced into urban living because the north prefers it more, I'ma quote Nasty Nate from Half Baked. "Man, Gimme yo' fruit cocktail!!"

YO, CITYKID09!!! Seriously, thanx for trying to help, but if you'd REALLY like to help, I'd like to know one thing from ya so we understand where you're coming from: What's the problem you have with suburb people, huh? I got to hand it to CityKid that I think they're 100% accurate that the style of most of Houston is more of an surburban feel than an urban. Exactly what issue do you have with suburban-style living for most Houstonians? Why exactly do you feel it's bad? This is NOT a public diss against da CityKid, but I feel to understand the Kid, you must first understand the City (um, if that make any sense. RECOGNIZE!)

And as I drink this juice that I'm sure somebody spit in, I just would like to say that the suburban-style living is the EXACT reason why I think Houston has more room for creative living than an Urban-everywhere metropolitan area. But to ANYONE who doesn't love Houston, I shall quote the noble scholar Nasty Nate once more. "BETTER WATCH YO' BACK, FISH!! 'CAUSE SQUIRRELMASTER AIN'T GONNA BE THERE FOR YOU ALL THE TIME. 'CAUSE NEXT TIME I COME AFTER YA, I"MA WANT SOME COCKTAIL. FRUIT!!!!!!!!!!"

[citykid09]

Atlanta's new district called Atlantic Station.

You guys just don't get it. I have no problem with suburban living, it's the look that I care about. I like the urban look, it makes you feel like your in a real city. that Kroger, is a suburban Kroger, it just has parking in the back to give it an urban look, why can't Houston just take time on what it builds to give there stuff a good look. Places in Houston like Highland Village I really like, thats not really urban, but its nice. You know Houston has enough suburban why not at least try and make some stuff look a little urban so people wont be so disapointed when they come there.

Let me tell you guys a story. When I use to come to Houston as a child, I would get so happy about seeing the big city. We never really expolered the city, we just visited family. All I can remeber are the big freeways and the big buildings. Passing downtown on th freeway is my favorite memory, because I would see big cities in Movies and shows but now I was seeing it with my on eyes. That was the extent of the Houston I remebered a s a child, but after I grew up and really got to see the city, I noticed that it was noting more than a bigger version of my town, with just a big down town and a few tall building spread out. I was also disapointed with downtown, because you can see more people walking around in downtown Bryan than in downtown Houston.

[UrbaNerd]

Seriously, dude....Houston will eventually make it's own brand of urban development. We don't need to copy exactly what another city is making. In fact, I think that Atlantic station is rather bland, and lacking in character. That is NOT what we want in Houston.

[DJ V Lawrence]

You guys just don't get it. I have no problem with suburban living, it's the look that I care about. I like the urban look, it makes you feel like your in a real city.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Respect! Just wanted to set the record straight. Once again, thanx to da CityKid for the different perspective. I really like this topic. Chill Nasty Nate.

Yo check it, your pictures are not too shabby of Atlanta, but I had a few comments. First off, some of the complexes you show in the pictures look VERY uniformed to each other. Doesn't really appeal to me. But there was ONE unit you showed that even though they're the same from each other, the design was very modern and cool. (The beige, brown, and red brick one)

Another question to CityKid: Isn't Midtown being built in a similar way to the one you propose? I haven't been there in a little bit, but I remember seeing urban designs for Midtown similar to what you show in the pics. How is it coming along?

Also, word on the street that Memorial City's revitalization will be similar to this as well. Is this true?

For the record on where I stand, Urban ain't bad in Houston, but I only wanna see it in SELECT locations. I MUCH prefer having a majority suburban-feel Houston, and the green scenery and trees everywhere is flat out sweet! I don't think trees look as natural in an urban environment than they do in a suburban one, and we REALLY need them trees, 'cauue, like, um, our air's kinda dirty?

[citykid09]

Im just saying if Atlanta can do it why not Houston?

[texasboy]

Velvetj hit the nail on the head of what I was thinking, and I cannot stress enough how important it is to take what he posted into consideration. The sad thing is, on this forum, the people that want the best for this city are usually criticized, especially LTAWACS. Have you noticed that he gives positive feedback or interest on developments that show smart urban growth, and it is not really preference, because this is a city, not a suburb how some people want it. People may think his post are full of negative criticism, but he is actually critiquing the city, while most of the other people have fell into the normal patterns of how Houston is built with no zoning laws, excitement over freeways rather than rapid transit, sprawly developments, and still want a car oriented city. Well there is nothing unique about that, and the city will not have the spotlight that its citizens want if this continues to happen.

and tw2ntyse7en, houston is nothing like any part of new york. even the suburbs of nyc are more urban than houston. time to get out a little bit.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Respect! Just wanted to set the record straight. Once again, thanx to da CityKid for the different perspective. I really like this topic. Chill Nasty Nate.

Yo check it, your pictures are not too shabby of Atlanta, but I had a few comments. First off, some of the complexes you show in the pictures look VERY uniformed to each other. Doesn't really appeal to me. But there was ONE unit you showed that even though they're the same from each other, the design was very modern and cool. (The beige, brown, and red brick one)

Another question to CityKid: Isn't Midtown being built in a similar way to the one you propose? I haven't been there in a little bit, but I remember seeing urban designs for Midtown similar to what you show in the pics. How is it coming along?

Also, word on the street that Memorial City's revitalization will be similar to this as well. Is this true?

For the record on where I stand, Urban ain't bad in Houston, but I only wanna see it in SELECT locations. I MUCH prefer having a majority suburban-feel Houston, and the green scenery and trees everywhere is flat out sweet! I don't think trees look as natural in an urban environment than they do in a suburban one, and we REALLY need them trees, 'cauue, like, um, our air's kinda dirty?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dude, I suck. I'm quoting myself but exactly what's going on in Midtown and Memorial City?

and, um, I don't think there's another city in America built as successfully as ours. Atlanta may be similar in SOME parts of town, but when an out-of towner comes to Houston, they've told me they thought we had, like, FIVE downtowns. No joke. Medical Center, Galleria, Greenspoint, Woodlands, Greenway Plaza just to name a few, ALL have Downtown-like skylines that make visiters think we have, like, more than five different cities within us. (Bellaire, very funny).

Now check it; we are very unique. Go to New York and it looks like one ENSIZED downtown, without any room for suburbanization to take place. Tell me one place ANYWHERE in 8 1/2 million-people NYC that has 6 lanes of traffic for their rides. They don't. Why? Not only is the mass transit system so well set up there, but face it, their's simply no room for you to cruise around. Compare that to H-Town. We too kool for da carpool, foo.

In closing this irelevant, I mean, irreverant speech, remember this; 27 already has been inducted into the Kick-Ass club. What does that mean? It means he's right, by default. Manhattan and most of NYC has no room to grow, so they have to build up and not out. They have no choice, yo. H-Town not only has that choise, but we give that option of big city, suburban, or roomy feel living to all of our real estate consumers.

[texasboy]

^^ You're joking right?

[DJ V Lawrence]

^^ You're joking right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I kid, I kid. Don't believe DJ V Lawrence, yo. He's just a dude that's never been to New York OR Houston in the first place. Hell, I'm not even sure if he's been in Texas for that matter. In fact, I'm not even sure that he's even a DJ. I heard he went to the Neverland Ranch at age 9 and hasn't been heard from since.

Nah seriously, no disrespect. Which part did you think was inaccurate? Where was I wrong, yo?