McMansions in the suburbs make less sense with high energy prices

[marmer]

All I know is, I've lived literally all over Houston, and recently moved to Pearland because it's closer to work. I hate it. It's amazing how long it takes to do basic things down here. I live right in the middle of one of those endless interchangeable neighborhoods, and it still somehow takes nearly 15 minutes to get to Randalls-- the Randalls IN PEARLAND. It's ironic that a development designed around the car should be so inconvenient. 518 is a total disaster. The traffic is truly incredible. There are very few trees. Restaurants are nonexistent, unless you like Joe's Crab Shack. Anywhere you would want to go that isn't a grocery store or radio shack is 30 mins away. Camera store? 30 mins. Non-chain restaurant? 30 mins. Central market? 30 mins. It's an absolute mystery to me why on earth anyone would want to live in a place like this. It's all the inconvenience of living in the country, with none of the benefits. Guess I found out it's not for me. But if you like it, more power to you. Takes all kinds...

I'm not sure how to respond to your post without making it a total threadjack. But I lived in Montrose for ten years and have now lived in Pearland for eighteen years. I disagree with almost everything you have said, which makes me think that I could share some information which maybe, you, as a newcomer, might find useful. If you want to PM me, please do. I too hate 518 but can avoid driving on it pretty easily.

Agreed, but just like you, other people end up buying in the areas because they believe it is a great deal, only to later regret it after they truley see the lack of real ammenities and conveniences. Glad someone on here is honest about the outer burbs and how difficult it can be to do everyday errands.

I'm not sure that Pearland qualifies as the outer burbs anymore. Maybe it did in 1990. And it's not difficult to do everyday errands. I certainly don't find it easier to do errands inside the loop or in the Galleria area, for example.

[Pumapayam]

I'm not sure that Pearland qualifies as the outer burbs anymore. Maybe it did in 1990. And it's not difficult to do everyday errands. I certainly don't find it easier to do errands inside the loop or in the Galleria area, for example.

Take out traffic and you are left with distance as the only variable between urban and suburb/exurb sprawl. Galleria traffic and traffic on 518 are just as bad, I have driven both.

Between gyms, grocery stores, cleaners, gas stations, banks. . yadda yadda yadda . . . with good density and grided system; a greater amount of variety with choices and routes exists, with less distance when compared to a cul-de-sac infested sprawl. The road infrustructure in sprawls are less dense, retail is ALWAYS car-centric first, pedestrial friendly last, blocks are 2 to 4 time larger, sidewalks are an afterthought, if they are even placed.

It's not difficult as you mentioned in your response, since Pearland is more developed now, but it will always be a less efficient way of living compared to centralized living.

Bridgeland on the other hand could indicate a representation of a "Pearland from 1990".

Gas in 1990 was a buck or less a gallon. Being efficient was a non issue in 1990, but I think the days of suburban sprawls being affordable has come to an end and will become a financial burden for people who still decide to choose that lifestyle from 2008 on.

People are avoiding SUV's now, who's to say this article is not predicting the same thing about people choosing to purchase a home in a suburban sprawl?

[MidtownCoog]

^And that comes down to personal preference...a separate issue. The issue of the thread, though, is does he spend a lot (whatever benchmark that may be) of time, money, gas getting to work and other places...

And so, yes, it sounds like he does.

[Pumapayam]

America's Money: Gas Crunch Hits Home

Our family lives in a rural area in Ohio. My wife and I both commute 17 miles each way to work every day.

Needless to say with fuel prices more than tripling in a three-year period, along with food prices rising, there just isn't as much money available for extra things.

People who used to live in the suburbs are flocking to live in Center City. I have all the green space I need within blocks -- Fairmount Park is the largest public park in the country and Kelly Drive is lined with joggers, bladers and bikers.

Gas prices have taught me to not drive anymore. I stay at my mom's house when I work. I won't come home.

It used to be that we could pack up the SUV and surely not forget a thing while traveling at an affordable fare that barely hurt the bank account. Now, after downsizing vehicles to save gas, we can't bring everything -- and mommy is cramped in the back seat with Mikey while our dog Chopper rides shotgun.

I am currently 19 years old and am paying around $100 a week in gas... nearly a third of my paycheck! This summer is only getting worse, seeing as how gas has just jumped over $4 a gallon where I live.

[Gary]

And some people prefer to live in funky old Beirutesque, circa 1970, townhome just outside the loop.

We get it.

[marmer]

Take out traffic and you are left with distance as the only variable between urban and suburb/exurb sprawl. Galleria traffic and traffic on 518 are just as bad, I have driven both.

And Kirby, and Shepherd, and San Felipe, and Richmond, and Bissonnet, and Holcombe, and Westheimer, and Montrose are just as bad. I could go on and on. And forget about driving around that nice little residential grid all over Montrose, with its on-street parking, narrow streets, seemingly random sprinkling of 4-way and 2-way stop signs, and uncontrolled landscaping. Scares me to death.

Between gyms, grocery stores, cleaners, gas stations, banks. . yadda yadda yadda . . . with good density and grided system; a greater amount of variety with choices and routes exists, with less distance when compared to a cul-de-sac infested sprawl. The road infrastructure in sprawls are less dense, retail is ALWAYS car-centric first, pedestrial friendly last, blocks are 2 to 4 time larger, sidewalks are an afterthought, if they are even placed.

Actually, one of my least favorite things about suburban living is the huge influx of gyms, grocery stores, cleaners, gas stations, banks...storage places and strip shopping centers. I'd be happier with pasture.

And, unfortunately, I'm about _this_ close to a rant about The Pedestrian Myth. Put simply, how often do you go to _any_ store of _any_ kind and come out with purchases you would be just as happy to carry for even _one_ block? And that assumes decent weather and a reasonably safe neighborhood. I'm trying to think -- grocery store, dry cleaners, shoe store... I can't think of any. We buy groceries a week at a time, for example, and usually don't go to the cleaners unless we have several things. Walking is fine for exercise or pleasure, provided you are reasonably healthy and have comfortable shoes and no injuries to your lower body. But it's not a good transportation solution for much of anything.

Gas in 1990 was a buck or less a gallon. Being efficient was a non issue in 1990, but I think the days of suburban sprawls being affordable has come to an end and will become a financial burden for people who still decide to choose that lifestyle from 2008 on.

People are avoiding SUV's now, who's to say this article is not predicting the same thing about people choosing to purchase a home in a suburban sprawl?

Well, the difference for us back then was simply that we would have had to pay twice as much for half as much space in a rougher neighborhood with poor schools. We actually did choose Pearland to minimize mine and my wife's commutes. The single biggest reason we moved was fear of crime. Break-ins were fairly frequent in our Montrose hood of the time.

And now, with a smallish house nearly paid off, mature trees, cars paid off, and a good school within walking(!) distance I'm more willing to sit tight and bet on automotive technological advances in the near-to-medium term than uproot my family and move closer at a tremendous up-front cost.

[brerrabbit]

Well along the way there was at least one mention of personal preferance. I live in Pearland and work in downtown Houston. I have worked in downtown for most of my 26 year career.(I really do get paid more to work there) I utilize public transportation or carpool which my company subsidizes. While I enjoy a good Broadway musical, a museum, or a inner city bar occasionally my "personal preferences" lean towards the outdoors. I fish (23 miles one way to the boat launch I use), I hunt (26 miles one way to my dove, duck, and goose lease) and I enjoy golfing (seven courses within 10 miles). Sure I pay higher prices for gas like everybody else, but my wife works in Pearland, my daughter just finished hs in Pearland and they use very little gas. My house is certainly bigger than I could afford in Houston, and I pay more to heat and cool it but hey my P&I is $618 a month so what i give up in energy costs I make up for in lower house payments. Certainly some of the newer suburbs can't offer these deals today, I have no desire whatsoever to move inside the loop. You guys are all saying what you can't get in the burbs totally ignoring the fact that most of the things I can get out here are things you don't care about so you dismiss them out of hand. Make all the financial arguments you want, in the end it is about lifestyle, and while you may find movie night in the park boring, or bands playing at Stevenson Park in Friendswood on Friday nights a real yawner, we actually enjoy those things. So ease up a little and understand that we ain't all uneducated, unsophisticated hicks out here, we just value different things than you do.

[sevfiv]

^ Thanks for responding and giving your perspective. It is most definitely about personal preference/lifestyle choices and the balance with energy consumption.

The title of the thread, however, is pejorative which may be leading to some of the tension - the term McMansion (or McSpec house is more what I'm used to seeing around town) tend to convey a shallow, conspicuous consumption-type of lifestyle

[brerrabbit]

In regard to McMansions, they have never made any sense in the burbs. Lets not kid ourselves about this one. Building a 5,000 sq ft place out here while certainly cheaper is a fools paradise. Having lived in Houston my entire life I can tell you the first homes to loose the most value are McMansions in the burbs. I live in a subdivision north off of Dixe Farm Road and just across it is an area of homes on acreage. Several years ago someone came in on two acres and built a huge house with a double winding staircase, marble entryway and all the other upgrades. They have listed it and it shows up every once in a while on HAR. They want a million dollars for the thing. Built in an area where people have horses and cows. They overbuilt but I can tell you that decision was every bit as stupid when gas prices were a dollar as now when they are four dollars. Sorry but stupidity of that magnitude is timeless. I understand what you saying that the McMansions don't make sense today but certain posters have not stuck to the idea that we were talking about McMansions and felt to blast everything about suburban living not limiting the discussion to McMansions.

[liammclaren]

I think most people who live in the suburbs and commute into Houston are aware that their gas prices are going to be high. Maybe not as high as they are now, but that's how it goes. That said I think the real genius of developers is the way they have convinced buyers that as far as houses go, the only thing that matters is size. Not quality, not location, nothing but size. And the houses in the suburbs are certainly bigger, dollar for dollar, than inside the loop. But they are very cheaply built. You live in one for a while and you realize that the developers have cost-cutting down to a literal science. EVERYTHING in my house is cheap. Cheap fixtures, cheap cabinets, siding on the sides and in the back (but not on the all important facade of course), cheap carpet, inadequate air-conditioning, it's all cheap. BUT the house is big. That it certainly is. Therein lies the developers genius. Of course they don't care, you KNOW they don't live here. They're sitting on a beach earning twenty percent.

Don't mean to offend anyone, that's just how I see it.

[memebag]

And, unfortunately, I'm about _this_ close to a rant about The Pedestrian Myth. Put simply, how often do you go to _any_ store of _any_ kind and come out with purchases you would be just as happy to carry for even _one_ block? And that assumes decent weather and a reasonably safe neighborhood. I'm trying to think -- grocery store, dry cleaners, shoe store... I can't think of any. We buy groceries a week at a time, for example, and usually don't go to the cleaners unless we have several things. Walking is fine for exercise or pleasure, provided you are reasonably healthy and have comfortable shoes and no injuries to your lower body. But it's not a good transportation solution for much of anything.

That's subjective. When I lived in Austin (without a car) I walked (or skated) to the grocery store, record store, book store, school, bars, restaurants, etc. When I lived in Montrose I regularly walked to stores and restaurants, even though I had a car. When it rained, I carried an umbrella. I didn't buy groceries once a week. I never went to the dry cleaners. I walked more than I did at any other time. Walking for the sake of walking bores me. Walking to get somewhere doesn't bother me.

I would love to live someplace like that again, but not right now. Right now I want a pool, a yard, a bunch of different rooms, a quiet street and no one pissing in front of my house during street festivals.

[westguy76]

I think most people who live in the suburbs and commute into Houston are aware that their gas prices are going to be high. Maybe not as high as they are now, but that's how it goes. That said I think the real genius of developers is the way they have convinced buyers that as far as houses go, the only thing that matters is size. Not quality, not location, nothing but size. And the houses in the suburbs are certainly bigger, dollar for dollar, than inside the loop. But they are very cheaply built. You live in one for a while and you realize that the developers have cost-cutting down to a literal science. EVERYTHING in my house is cheap. Cheap fixtures, cheap cabinets, siding on the sides and in the back (but not on the all important facade of course), cheap carpet, inadequate air-conditioning, it's all cheap. BUT the house is big. That it certainly is. Therein lies the developers genius. Of course they don't care, you KNOW they don't live here. They're sitting on a beach earning twenty percent.

Don't mean to offend anyone, that's just how I see it.

Dude, all this is on you for buying a cheaply built house that you are obviously not happy with. The onus is on you to do the research on an area and the homebuilder/ quality of materials before making such a large commitment.

And lets please not go to Puma levels of generalizations. Just because your house is the suburbs in cheap (your words) not all of them are. There are a lot of choices of homebuilders in the Houston area and a wide range of price ranges.

If you feel the developers got one over on you than simply put you didn't do your homework.

Not trying to slam you, just the inferance that an apple is an orange because it is round and falls from a tree is getting old.

[Pumapayam]

If you feel the developers got one over on you than simply put you didn't do your homework.

Not trying to slam you, just the inferance that an apple is an orange because it is round and falls from a tree is getting old.

I am sure he is not alone with his issues. Most of these sprawling homes built in the low 100's in treeless neighborhoods tease people into moving out in BFE because it gives them opportunities to own a home. These will last you about 10 years, then it falls apart, usually foundation or plumbing problems.

But that is an interesting take, American buyers putting priority on the size on the home, usually to show off and tell friends and family that they live in a 3000 sq ft 4 bedroom NEW house with granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances, but yet, who wants to really go visit them in BFE?

[brerrabbit]

Okay I get it, your smarter than me, your wiser than me, your in general a much better person than me because you got a great deal on you townhouse in Houston, and I am stupid because I live where I choose to live in the burbs in a house that was built twenty years ago and still is in good shape because I have maintained it, pay probably half of what you do a month for it and have a $100k in equity in it. I don't mind that you want to say that there are situations where people live in over priced, over energy consumption places in the burbs, its just the fact that throughout your posts you have slammed all burbs, and not acknowledged at all that there are reasonable situations to be had outside of Houston. That combined with the fact that you do in an almost morally superior way. Have a nice life in your world, and I'll do the same in mine.

[cottonmather0]

I think most people who live in the suburbs and commute into Houston are aware that their gas prices are going to be high. Maybe not as high as they are now, but that's how it goes. That said I think the real genius of developers is the way they have convinced buyers that as far as houses go, the only thing that matters is size. Not quality, not location, nothing but size. And the houses in the suburbs are certainly bigger, dollar for dollar, than inside the loop. But they are very cheaply built. You live in one for a while and you realize that the developers have cost-cutting down to a literal science. EVERYTHING in my house is cheap. Cheap fixtures, cheap cabinets, siding on the sides and in the back (but not on the all important facade of course), cheap carpet, inadequate air-conditioning, it's all cheap. BUT the house is big. That it certainly is. Therein lies the developers genius. Of course they don't care, you KNOW they don't live here. They're sitting on a beach earning twenty percent.

Don't mean to offend anyone, that's just how I see it.

This post is rather off-topic to the cost of energy discussion, but amen, brother. There are lots of ignorant homebuyers out there who would rather snatch up granite countertops and can lights than have quality drywall and plumb walls. This doesn't mean that all houses in subdivisions are bad - there are just as many poorly constructed new townhomes in Cottage Grove as there are poorly constructed new homes in Shadow Creek Ranch - it just means that construction quality and durability is just another one of those many variables, in addition to energy costs, that one has to weigh when deciding where to live. Our house was built in 1964 and aside from simple wear and tear, it is in excellent condition roof and foundation wise and you simply cannot find the same quality of lumber (red fir) in stores today that we have inside our walls, which is one of the reasons we paid up to live where we did.

[Pumapayam]

Okay I get it, your smarter than me, your wiser than me, your in general a much better person than me . . .

I am commenting on the current situation, and existing suburbanites, like yourself, are taking offense to my comments and are ignoring pre-2000 Houston when I am sure most of the people move out there under better circumstances. I grew up in the suburbs too. With that in mind, no, you likely made a smart choice back then. So be happy and just get a smaller car and hope for better times. If you bought a house in Bridgeland, then keep reading.

Now, in 2008, these developers are still building cheap copy cat looking sprawl homes even FURTHER away from Houston; plus we have 4x the cost of gas and at least 2x the cost in electricty.

The average family who is interested in buying those still, now, under these economic times and energy prices, well, if I have nothing nice to say about there personal choices.

[brerrabbit]

I am commenting on the current situation, and existing suburbanites, like yourself, are taking offense to my comments and are ignoring pre-2000 Houston when I am sure most of the people move out there under better circumstances. I grew up in the suburbs too. With that in mind, no, you likely made a smart choice back then. So be happy and just get a smaller car and hope for better times. If you bought a house in Bridgeland, then keep reading.

Now, in 2008, these developers are still building cheap copy cat looking sprawl homes even FURTHER away from Houston; plus we have 4x the cost of gas and at least 2x the cost in electricty.

The average family who is interested in buying those still, now, under these economic times and energy prices, well, if I have nothing nice to say about there personal choices.

You deflect critisim and say that exsisting suburbinites like myself made the right decision pre 2000 but then go right back to your slamming the burbs by saying buy a smaller car (why I take the bus to work and am compensated for it by my employer I use less gas to go to work than you do guarenteed and it costs me virtually nothing) and developers in 2008 are still building cheap copy cat looking sprawl homes, obviously implying that we (the group of suburbanites your not talking about) bought the same cheap copy cat looking houses whenever we went to the burbs. I understand your current point but feel that you lack the ability to make your point without seeming to gloat about it. When you start your comments in the thread by saying, look how smart I am, look what I did, then proceed to rip generally all suburbinites then you have totally wrecked your credibility.

[liammclaren]

Dude, all this is on you for buying a cheaply built house that you are obviously not happy with. The onus is on you to do the research on an area and the homebuilder/ quality of materials before making such a large commitment.

And lets please not go to Puma levels of generalizations. Just because your house is the suburbs in cheap (your words) not all of them are. There are a lot of choices of homebuilders in the Houston area and a wide range of price ranges.

If you feel the developers got one over on you than simply put you didn't do your homework.

Not trying to slam you, just the inferance that an apple is an orange because it is round and falls from a tree is getting old.

You're right, I didn't do my homework. And yes the onus is on me. You are correct. And yet my house by typical suburb standards is quite nice. It's still a cheap piece of crap. That's just how the suburbs are.

[marmer]

That's subjective. When I lived in Austin (without a car) I walked (or skated) to the grocery store, record store, book store, school, bars, restaurants, etc. When I lived in Montrose I regularly walked to stores and restaurants, even though I had a car. When it rained, I carried an umbrella. I didn't buy groceries once a week. I never went to the dry cleaners. I walked more than I did at any other time. Walking for the sake of walking bores me. Walking to get somewhere doesn't bother me.

I would love to live someplace like that again, but not right now. Right now I want a pool, a yard, a bunch of different rooms, a quiet street and no one pissing in front of my house during street festivals.

Fair enough. I've been to Austin twice in the last three weeks and it is lovely. And pedestrian friendly. Still, if you buy clothes, bed linens, most electronics, any furniture, most hardware, more than a couple of books at a time, two gallons of milk, any bagged goods like pet food, even toilet paper, pretty much anything at a home supply store, or pretty much anything at an office supply store, you are going to have more than you can carry very far and probably less than you can have delivered. And when you lived there were you single? Did you have any kids? Toddlers make the walking thing a lot harder and even older children usually can't walk as far as adults.

You're right, I didn't do my homework. And yes the onus is on me. You are correct. And yet my house by typical suburb standards is quite nice. It's still a cheap piece of crap. That's just how the suburbs are.

I thought for all practical purposes that all new houses are cheap pieces of crap. The only differences are size, location, and finishes. The rare exceptions are those built by some custom builders for some fairly perceptive and demanding clients.

[memebag]

Fair enough. I've been to Austin twice in the last three weeks and it is lovely. And pedestrian friendly. Still, if you buy clothes, bed linens, most electronics, any furniture, most hardware, more than a couple of books at a time, two gallons of milk, any bagged goods like pet food, even toilet paper, pretty much anything at a home supply store, or pretty much anything at an office supply store, you are going to have more than you can carry very far and probably less than you can have delivered. And when you lived there were you single? Did you have any kids? Toddlers make the walking thing a lot harder and even older children usually can't walk as far as adults.

I was living with a girlfriend while in Austin, no kids, one cat. We didn't buy a lot of stuff, but we lugged groceries about 5 blocks. It wasn't a problem. I missed it when I moved back to Houston.

Human children can walk a pretty good distance before they give out, and they can pack a reasonable amount of stuff if you load them properly. Just look at our legs. We evolved for walking long distances.

[KatieDidIt]

This post is rather off-topic to the cost of energy discussion, but amen, brother. There are lots of ignorant homebuyers out there who would rather snatch up granite countertops and can lights than have quality drywall and plumb walls. This doesn't mean that all houses in subdivisions are bad - there are just as many poorly constructed new townhomes in Cottage Grove as there are poorly constructed new homes in Shadow Creek Ranch - it just means that construction quality and durability is just another one of those many variables, in addition to energy costs, that one has to weigh when deciding where to live. Our house was built in 1964 and aside from simple wear and tear, it is in excellent condition roof and foundation wise and you simply cannot find the same quality of lumber (red fir) in stores today that we have inside our walls, which is one of the reasons we paid up to live where we did.

I've had less problems with my house built in 1967 than with my "ultra delux" custom in The Woodlands. They just built them better or had better product to use.

[liammclaren]

I thought for all practical purposes that all new houses are cheap pieces of crap. The only differences are size, location, and finishes.

Very true. The bottom line is all that matters.

[marmer]

Very true. The bottom line is all that matters.

Right on. If you're going to live in the suburbs you are going to live in a cheaply built house. At least most things will be cheap to fix.

[musicman]

Right on. If you're going to live in the suburbs you are going to live in a cheaply built house.

go walk around midtown and see if you'll make a different statement

[BryanS]

go walk around midtown and see if you'll make a different statement

Ditto.

[Pumapayam]

go walk around midtown and see if you'll make a different statement

New skinny 3/4 story townhomes yes, but not the older ones.

But those are far fewer compared to the outer sprawls.

[liammclaren]

go walk around midtown and see if you'll make a different statement

True. The point is not that all suburban houses are cheap, the point is the same developers build them all, including those in midtown, which are cheap and ugly, just like the suburban versions.

[Pumapayam]

True. The point is not that all suburban houses are cheap, the point is the same developers build them all, including those in midtown, which are cheap and ugly, just like the suburban versions.

I think the low margin ones (marketed with the low 100's yard bandit signs), used for first time high credit risk home buyers who want that "new home" scent are the majority culprits. The more expensive one are a bit less prone to cheapness, wtih your custom builders pretty much maintaining a high standard.

BTW, for those looking to downsize their cars, I was reading about Smart and was dissapointed about the price and mpg ratings.

Bascially you pay about $13K for a car that gets around the upper 30's for gas mileage.

For a bit more, you can purchase a Civic or Corrola new, or slightly used to maintain the cost equality that gives you more room for the same mileage.

How did people miss that? They really are not much of an alternative.

[crunchtastic]

BTW, for those looking to downsize their cars, I was reading about Smart and was dissapointed about the price and mpg ratings.

Bascially you pay about $13K for a car that gets around the upper 30's for gas mileage.

For a bit more, you can purchase a Civic or Corrola new, or slightly used to maintain the cost equality that gives you more room for the same mileage.

How did people miss that? They really are not much of an alternative.

People are just jumping on the cool and new bandwagon, like they did with the Prius. And the Smarts are selling above list because of demand. Three years ago I went shopping for a new car with the following criteria: it had to be $15K or less, it had to have a hatchback, and it had to get 30 MPG city. The list was pretty damn short, and Corollas were easily $20K depending on options.

I bought a Scion for $15K and am getting 31/32 city, with tons of room.

[musicman]

Corollas were easily $20K depending on options.

that ride must REALLY be decked out!!