McMansions in the suburbs make less sense with high energy prices

[crunchtastic]

that ride must REALLY be decked out!!

Not really, base for the CE then was a little over $15k but easy jump up to $20k. I bet the 09 being advertised now is a $22k car, as configured. And with Scion you're buying a Toyota anyway. Win-win!

[Pumapayam]

Mayor Bill White touches on the current trend of McMansions sprawls spread around Houston.

The next section of the interview was quite provocative:

Inskeep: Are you going to have to encourage people to live in what I might imagine is a very un-Texas way, to give up the big house, to give up the big yard, to live in a smaller apartment, to live a lot closer together so that it makes sense to have that transit option?

White: Actually, Steve, we don't have to encourage people; they get it. There's a tremendous demand, particularly as fuel prices have risen, for people who want to give up that car, to go from two cars to one car, and live along a transit line.

The full interview is here.

[CDeb]

At least my utility lines are buried!

[h2obuff]

Get ready Katy, FairField, Cypress, Pearland, Friendswood, this is you!

Sugar Land and the Woodland might be immune to this.

This assumes everybody that lives in the burbs works in a CBD, which is untrue, especially in a city like Houston. We live in Cypress, but I work in Cypress and my wife works in Westchase. There is no benifit for us to live anywhere else.

None of my neighbors work downtown, they all work in the westside/NW side (energy corridor, katy, HP, etc.)

The large, blanket assupmption in this article are a scare tactict, not based on actual factual data, just conjecture.

Also, to be honest, many buying a $400,000+ home may not care ho wmuch gas is, they just live with it and move on.

[Pumapayam]

This assumes everybody that lives in the burbs works in a CBD

Our spoke and hub freeway design begs to differ, as evidence in the morning traffic channeling into town, and afternoon traffic returning back into the sprawls. It is not necessarily focused on the CBD, but a trend is clearly shown with our daily commutes with the opposite traffic flow moving much more freely.

Also, to be honest, many buying a $400,000+ home may not care how much gas is, they just live with it and move on.

Thanks for the input, but there are many new home owners finally realizing that the savings and benefits of moving into the "starting from low 100's" starter home sprawls. They are ones that will eventually hurt from this. They are characterized by lower to middle income buyers that want the American dream of owning a home and take advantage of these "supposed" great offers. Long daily commutes and increased gasoline costs cause your subruban frugal lifestyle savings to dwindle quickly.

[h2obuff]

Humor me, I would love to see a photo of your home, or at least an example closely remsembling your home before you call mine cookie cutter.

My townhome is not a McMansion townhome that is all the rage in Rice Military or Uptown. It was built with personality and I have not seen anything like it in Houston. What "new" townhome that is cookie cutter has a rear garage and a front facing door?

And even if you still think it is, I could not care less. I am glad I am reinvesting into a depressed area and I did not fall prey to a cheaply built home on former farmland in the middle of nowhere with romanticized neighborhood name that have yards signs advertising "starting from the 130's."

That picture has zero personality. it is one big ugly garage door, show us where the good design is in that? And no matter what you think, that piece of yours was built as cheaply and as quickly as possibel when built. There was no loving craftsman making sure all was built with loving care and to the highest standard. No, it was built with day labor with the cheapest materials and with none of the efficiencies and design used in modern home construction.

You have really fooled yourself into thinking you are saving the planet by repainting a structure that does not meet any current building codes nor does it provide an sense of efficiency other than you can walk soemwhere I can not (nor do I want to go there for that matter).

I live and work in the burbs and my commute is better than any you could even dream of. I can walk, I can ride my bike, I can drive the most gass guzziling machine ever invented and love it either way!

[RedScare]

You have really fooled yourself into thinking you are saving the planet by repainting a structure that does not meet any current building codes nor does it provide an sense of efficiency other than you can walk soemwhere I can not (nor do I want to go there for that matter).

While I disagree wholeheartedly with almost everything Puma has written in this thread, I must disagree with you on this statement. It is virtually impossible to build new using fewer resources than moving into an already built structure.

[Pumapayam]

That picture has zero personality. it is one big ugly garage door, show us where the good design is in that? And no matter what you think, that piece of yours was built as cheaply and as quickly as possibel when built. There was no loving craftsman making sure all was built with loving care and to the highest standard. No, it was built with day labor with the cheapest materials and with none of the efficiencies and design used in modern home construction.

You have really fooled yourself into thinking you are saving the planet by repainting a structure that does not meet any current building codes nor does it provide an sense of efficiency other than you can walk soemwhere I can not (nor do I want to go there for that matter).

I live and work in the burbs and my commute is better than any you could even dream of. I can walk, I can ride my bike, I can drive the most gass guzziling machine ever invented and love it either way!

Try sticking with what a McMansion is, which my home is clearly not.

The photo I posted is the rear of my home, faces the alley. Alleys are not supposed to be focal point of the home. I have a front door side with great curb appeal. McMansions share the front door with the garage. Not good curb appeal. Even older homes that had garage and fron access in the front side of the property used to have the garage at least recessed further back towards the rear of the home.

I was trying to make a point that not everything in suburbia has to look the same. And easily the majority of the lower priced starter home McMansion resemble these.

Also, my home was built at the time with concrete floors on the second level and a network of steel beams supporting the second floor. Most newer homes have plywood/OSB floors and wooden support structures. I am proud of my awesome home, and don't care what your opinion is about it. It is amazing and I am glad I saved it from going into disrepair.

[crunchtastic]

I was trying to make a point that not everything in suburbia has to look the same.

Your townhome is not exactly a unique and beautifiul snowflake. There are streets in uptown with whole blocks of nothing but California contemporary and faux Georgian row house. I am an admitted ITL snob and certainly not a fan of standard suburban housing, but don't undermine your argument by trying to convince us that bland, cookie-cutter sameness (or just plain fugly, for that matter) doesn't exist in the galleria area.

[Pumapayam]

Your townhome is not exactly a unique and beautifiul snowflake. There are streets in uptown with whole blocks of nothing but California contemporary and faux Georgian row house. I am an admitted ITL snob and certainly not a fan of standard suburban housing, but don't undermine your argument by trying to convince us that bland, cookie-cutter sameness (or just plain fugly, for that matter) doesn't exist in the galleria area.

It does exist in the Galleria area, as I mention most new housing is prone to that McMansion style. I never took that argument that it was not, but it is much more prevelant in the starter home suburban sprawls where custom homes are not built and a single developer builds an entire neigborhood from a catalog from a dozen floorplan options.

What is deemed attractive is of personal taste. My house is clearly not a McMansion, and my key differences (rear garage, front side door, flat roof, center atrium, walk in closets in all bedrooms, large bedrooms, steel network/concrete upper floors) are not found in newer homes that are not custom built. Most starter home McMansions have ridiculously small sized bedrooms just so they can advertise that it is a 4 bedroom house.

[CDeb]

Our spoke and hub freeway design begs to differ, as evidence in the morning traffic channeling into town, and afternoon traffic returning back into the sprawls. It is not necessarily focused on the CBD, but a trend is clearly shown with our daily commutes with the opposite traffic flow moving much more freely.

So what? That does nothing to disprove the statement that a lot of the people that live in the suburbs also work there. All it does is show that people that need to get on the freeways tend to move into town in the morning and out of town in the evening.

Most starter home McMansions have ridiculously small sized bedrooms just so they can advertise that it is a 4 bedroom house.

Really???

I've found that most newer homes increase bedroom size at the expense of living area compared to similarly sized older homes.

[ricco67]

... There was no loving craftsman making sure all was built with loving care and to the highest standard. No, it was built with day labor with the cheapest materials and with none of the efficiencies and design used in modern home construction.

I live and work in the burbs and my commute is better than any you could even dream of. I can walk, I can ride my bike, I can drive the most gass guzziling machine ever invented and love it either way!

Hate to tell you this, but the odds are that most homes are built that way. While the inside and outside of the house looks pretty and is well appointed, but the hidden spaces may be total crap. The only way to assure of a properly built home is to hover over the construction site and picking a construction company yourself.

If you live and work in the 'burbs, I won't hate on that because it works for you. Just don't complain about gas prices.

[OkieEric]

It does exist in the Galleria area, as I mention most new housing is prone to that McMansion style. I never took that argument that it was not, but it is much more prevelant in the starter home suburban sprawls where custom homes are not built and a single developer builds an entire neigborhood from a catalog from a dozen floorplan options.

What is deemed attractive is of personal taste. My house is clearly not a McMansion, and my key differences (rear garage, front side door, flat roof, center atrium, walk in closets in all bedrooms, large bedrooms, steel network/concrete upper floors) are not found in newer homes that are not custom built. Most starter home McMansions have ridiculously small sized bedrooms just so they can advertise that it is a 4 bedroom house.

I think you may be over-using the term McMansion - McMansion and starter-homes in the low $100's are most certainly not synonymous. Let's not forget that there are plenty of McMansions going up inside the loop as well...they just sit on more expensive land

[Pumapayam]

So what? That does nothing to disprove the statement that a lot of the people the few that live in the suburbs also work there. All it does is show that people that need to get on the freeways tend to move into town in the morning and out of town in the evening.

Same difference, and basically the point of the article.

Everyone wants to use their small "exception this", "exception that" and claim that everyone else is spreading lies about how inefficient and isolated outer sprawl developments really are. There is a point when building further out of the city you rely on for living is just useless, and certain developments do fall into that category. They can't admit there is an issue with the outward movement of building poorly designed neighborhoods far beyond what is reasonable. It's an environmental and economic disaster. I think the point is that it is a trend, it does cover the majority, and congrats to those few that defy the norm and don't fall into the pattern.

[crunchtastic]

Helpful tip of the day:

"Sprawls" is not a noun.

Remember, HAIFers, quality posts begin with quality words!

[Pumapayam]

I think you may be over-using the term McMansion - McMansion and starter-homes in the low $100's are most certainly not synonymous. Let's not forget that there are plenty of McMansions going up inside the loop as well...they just sit on more expensive land

I can adjust and label it as "outer sprawl starter home McMansion-stlye developements". Characterized by cheap land, isolation, copy-cat style homes, that will offer the most amount of home with granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances for the dollar, regardless of quality.

Although McMansions in the loop are lazy developents as well, it's better than the neglected crime magnet shack before it (see # ward).

I would take the redeveloping a neglected abandoned shack over wasting arable farmland.

[CDeb]

I think the point is that it is a trend, it does cover the majority, and congrats to those few that defy the norm and don't fall into the pattern.

You're wrong. And I can prove it.

US 290 is basically 3 lanes each direction outside of 43rd Street. The maximum capacity of a freeway lane is 2,200 passenger cars per hour. Capacity is severaly undercut when traffic is jammed, however, and that number generally reduces to about 800 in stop and go driving. US 290 is generally jammed from 6 am to 9 am and has near capacity flows on the hour on either side of that. That means that about 21,000 cars use US 290 during the morning peak, or about 23,500 people after adjusting for US 290's average vehicle occupancy.

Considering that there are 15 times that many people living within a few miles of US 290, your assertion that the majority of those folks commute into central Houston is baseless, as the infrastructure cannot handle it.

[ricco67]

Helpful tip of the day:

"Sprawls" is not a noun.

Remember, HAIFers, quality posts begin with quality words!

You forgot to ad the "The More you know" theme jingle at the end.

[Pumapayam]

Helpful tip of the day:

"Sprawls" is not a noun.

Remember, HAIFers, quality posts begin with quality words!

A second helpful tip of the day, I do my best to provide quality posts, as should you.

Score!

[20thStDad]

'Round and 'round this goes...

is there an official definition of "McMansion" here somewhere or on the wiki? Heck, maybe I own one! Doubtful, if there are size requirements. Is it more about the quality or the style? I know of many small groups of development where the houses look very similar, but it looks good and was done well. I wouldn't call those McMansions. I just want to make sure I know what I'm arguing about before I throw my thoughts out there.

[TheNiche]

I can adjust and label it as "outer sprawl starter home McMansion-stlye developements". Characterized by cheap land, isolation, copy-cat style homes, that will offer the most amount of home with granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances for the dollar, regardless of quality.

Although McMansions in the loop are lazy developents as well, it's better than the neglected crime magnet shack before it (see # ward).

I would take the redeveloping a neglected abandoned shack over wasting arable farmland.

No, Puma, you really need to practice more discretion with the use of the word "McMansion". And for any number of good reasons.

When you're referring to a new $100k home which isn't really all that large and doesn't really look all that nice as a "McMansion"...well it really doesn't make any sense because it does not resemble a mansion in any way shape or form. If you want to tack the "Mc" onto another word to convey mass production, how about using the words "McShack", "McRanch", or "McCottage".

Another thing is that you seem to be very forgiving of rich urbanites in new "McMansions". These are the people that undeniably have the means to live a more sustainable lifestyle without any kind of geographic constraint but that instead opt to utilize the best-located land that is optimally-suited for densification in a way that is tremendously wasteful and that hurts the urban tree canopy...and that subsequently get all pissy when highrises or midrises crop up anywhere that might overlook their tiny back yards.

Instead, you focus your frustration on lower- and middle-class families that only want a nice house and good schools for their kids and that could maybe afford one or the other, but not both, if they were to live inside the loop. Sure, there are more of them than of the rich snobs, but when it really comes down to it, how do you expect for them to live anywhere but the suburbs when inner-city land is so scarce and highly-priced? And when gentrification displaces poor people, by the way, where do you think they end up? 7 Riverside? And its not like we're getting any fewer poor people each year or nursing any new Gulftons that will house them...so they end up in places like north Katy and Spring...what's their alternative?

Come down off your high horse, Puma.

[CDeb]

I just want to make sure I know what I'm arguing about before I throw my thoughts out there.

HERESY!!!!!!

[sevfiv]

McMansions are whatever you want them to be, but I generally categorize them as 4,000+ square foot spec homes on relatively small lots (maybe 10k or less in the city) with amorphous designs and cheap (home depot-ish) finishes.

Bellaire usually comes to mind...

[Pumapayam]

'Round and 'round this goes...

is there an official definition of "McMansion" here somewhere or on the wiki? Heck, maybe I own one! Doubtful, if there are size requirements. Is it more about the quality or the style? I know of many small groups of development where the houses look very similar, but it looks good and was done well. I wouldn't call those McMansions. I just want to make sure I know what I'm arguing about before I throw my thoughts out there.

Yes, I was corrected by OkieEric, while I am not refering to true McMansions, the smaller 2000-3000 sqft starter homes resemble them in style and materials.

I have changed my usage now to McMansion style homes.

If you want to tack the "Mc" onto another word to convey mass production, how about using the words "McShack", "McRanch", or "McCottage".

Even better.

Come down off your high horse, Puma.

I am middle income as well. I have a comfotrable life, but nothing to claim superiority with. I am very grounded.

It took me 5 years to remodel my home, and I am still not halfway done. I still live with stained/worn carpeting in my house because I am still saving for that next renovation project when I finally replace them.

Don't label me something I am not Niche.

[crunchtastic]

A second helpful tip of the day, I do my best to provide quality posts, as should you.

Score!

I said "sprawls" -- plural -- is not a noun. And as we see above, it's not. Thanks for the dictionary back-up!

I will be gracious and assume that your numerous references to 'suburban sprawls' and just plain 'sprawls ' were due to the keyboard fairy typing that extra 's' when you weren't looking.

[TheNiche]

I am middle income as well. I have a comfotrable life, but nothing to claim superiority with. I am very grounded.

It took me 5 years to remodel my home, and I am still not halfway done. I still live with stained/worn carpeting in my house because I am still saving for that next renovation project when I finally replace them.

Don't label me something I am not Niche.

You forgive those that are the least forgivable. And you bid good riddance to displaced poor even as you spite them for moving to inexpensive suburban housing stock. I don't care what your lifestyle is like--and even if more people actually wanted to live in the kind of home that you do, there aren't enough obsolete townhomes to be divided amongst all our newcomers--your opinions are profoundly elitist.

[musicman]

Don't label me something I am not Niche.

[Pumapayam]

You forgive those that are the least forgivable. And you bid good riddance to displaced poor even as you spite them for moving to inexpensive suburban housing stock. I don't care what your lifestyle is like--and even if more people actually wanted to live in the kind of home that you do, there aren't enough obsolete townhomes to be divided amongst all our newcomers--your opinions are profoundly elitist.

So you are basically accepting that poor people should keep poor housing just because they are poor. Why does it exists in the first place.

If you can't afford a kid, don't have them and expect the government to provide you welfare checks, if you can't maintain your car, don't drive it on the road and expect not to get caught in an accident without insurance, if you can't maintain the home you own, you should have never bought it.

Take pride and care of things you own, work hard for what you want, and alway take the opportunity to improve yourself and your surroundings. I don't accept the lazy answer and claim poverty as the reason why nothing improves. People create their own poverty and people can get out of it if they really want too (please refrain from attempting to name exceptions, yes EVERYTHING has exceptions, it's a tired response on HAIF). Laziness, neglect, and no ambition to improve is the reason why owners of most inner loop housing live in squalid conditions. People make something from nothing everyday. I don't buy that answer.

[sarahiki]

So you are basically accepting that poor people should keep poor housing just because they are poor. Why does it exists in the first place.

If you can't afford a kid, don't have them and expect the government to provide you welfare checks, if you can't maintain your car, don't drive it on the road and expect not to get caught in an accident without insurance, if you can't maintain the home you own, you should have never bought it.

Take pride and care of things you own, work hard for what you want, and alway take the opportunity to improve yourself and your surroundings. I don't accept the lazy answer and claim poverty as the reason why nothing improves. People create their own poverty and people can get out of it if they really want too (please refrain from attempting to name exceptions, yes EVERYTHING has exceptions, it's a tired response on HAIF). Laziness, neglect, and no ambition to improve is the reason why owners of most inner loop housing live in squalid conditions. People make something from nothing everyday. I don't buy that answer.

Wow, did you feel like you hadn't insulted, offended, and belittled enough people already on this thread? Had to open it up a little? Furthermore you are now way off-topic. If you want to start accusing poor people of laziness, start a new thread.

[TheNiche]

So you are basically accepting that poor people should keep poor housing just because they are poor. Why does it exists in the first place.

If you can't afford a kid, don't have them and expect the government to provide you welfare checks, if you can't maintain your car, don't drive it on the road and expect not to get caught in an accident without insurance, if you can't maintain the home you own, you should have never bought it.

Take pride and care of things you own, work hard for what you want, and alway take the opportunity to improve yourself and your surroundings. I don't accept the lazy answer and claim poverty as the reason why nothing improves. People create their own poverty and people can get out of it if they really want too (please refrain from attempting to name exceptions, yes EVERYTHING has exceptions, it's a tired response on HAIF). Laziness, neglect, and no ambition to improve is the reason why owners of most inner loop housing live in squalid conditions. People make something from nothing everyday. I don't buy that answer.

Ummm...ok. You do realize that poor people aren't going away willfully, right? Even if you wish it really really hard.

So what realistic policy do you propose to combat poor people? Class-based genocide? Eugenics? What is your final solution, Puma?