East End METRORail

[JJxvi]

Someone like me? Well that's interesting...who am I?

You remind me of my economics professors. A stickler for rational decision making. You had already made your point about the time of trip, it seems to me the actual route would be irrelevant since it really only matters as it relates to trip time, unless you are paying per mile.

[TheNiche]

You remind me of my economics professors. A stickler for rational decision making. You had already made your point about the time of trip, it seems to me the actual route would be irrelevant since it really only matters as it relates to trip time, unless you are paying per mile.

I like to be reasonably exhaustive when it comes to explaining all the things that suck about METRO rail as it has been implemented or planned to date.

[crunchtastic]

So poor Mexican Americans with a relatively high propensity for transit use would rather have NO transit than a station near their house? I think your study might have been flawed.

I don't see a flaw. When it comes to useful and convenient things, people like to have them nearby, but not on their doorstep. I'd like to be walking distance to a grocery store, but don't wan't to live across the street from one. Lots of human foot traffic that close is a nuisance and a safety issue, even if you're a poor Mexican.

I like to be reasonably exhaustive when it comes to explaining all the things that suck about METRO rail as it has been implemented or planned to date.

I see that Niche (aka the egomaniacal ranting econ profesor?) has made two more posts in the amount of time it took me to get out one much less reasonable or exhaustive.....

[editor]

OK, everyone, let's all settle down a little bit.

I think we can all agree that we've all seen studies and had personal experiences and observations that disagree with each other. I think the problem is that one particular study from whatever side you support does not work in every situation in every neighborhood.

I can imagine situations in some cities/neighborhoods where people would much rather drive than take mass transit even if it would take less time and money.

I'm sure Niche can imagine situations in some cities/neighborhoods where people clamber for mass transit in their areas.

I never paid much attention to mass transit before I moved to Chicago (oh, crap another Chicago story). But from what I've read in the local papers and Crain's, the success or failure of some developments rests on their proximity to transit lines. In real estate ads there is always a note about how close the apartment/home/whatever is to trains and bus lines.

But... (the first of two) Houston is not Chicago, or New York, or London, or any other transit-centered city. Houston is its own entity. People's priorities are different in Houston.

But... (the second of two) Houston is no longer just a collection of lifers and good old boys. Its demographics have changed drastically over the last two decades as more and more people from other parts of the country move in and bring with them their northern and eastern expectations of urbanity and what they expect the city to provide in the way of infrastructure. The people living in Midtown and Downtown aren't the same as the old folks living in Conroe and Kingwood. And as they put down roots in Houston, they are moving into decision-making positions that allow them to influence the future of the city.

In summary -- there are points on both sides of the argument. Niche isn't 100% right. I'm not 100% right. But there is a 100% correct fact if you're going to live in a city -- you've got to compromise and get along with the neighbors.

[musicman]

I think the Niche relies upon studies taken by Musicman and his transit firm, AMWHUT.

No studies here. It comes down to how much people value their time vs how much they are willing to pay in order to get somewhere quickly and conveniently. When wait times are longer than actual transit time, people find other means.

[rsb320]

For someone who cannot afford to waste 5 minutes - looks like that was accomplished here.

The only scheduled (screech) horn blow on the LRT is at the South Loop and that is because it is hauling arse at that point. They also use that horn for people or cars that may be in the way. Otherwise, they just use a ding ding bell. I can sometimes here it if I'm outside at night if the wind is right, and I'm several miles away. Then again, I used to sometimes hear the Astro World choo choo.

The freight train that runs parallel to the West Loop is now a quiet zone from the South Loop to I-10 (I think). They only sound that sucker if someone is on the tracks, etc.

I used to take the LRT from the Fannin south lot to downtown every day. It added about 10 minutes to my commute, but was certainly less stressful than the morning drive. I stopped riding when they changed to the Quick Card (rate hike) since it costs the same to park in a garage downtown and it does to pay Metro and Amco (Fannin South).

[editor]

No studies here. It comes down to how much people value their time vs how much they are willing to pay in order to get somewhere quickly and conveniently. When wait times are longer than actual transit time, people find other means.

Very true. More than once I've given up waiting for a train and jumped into a cab so I'd be to work on time.

Reliability is very important in a transit system. If you can't count on the train, you won't take a train.

[CDeb]

The only scheduled (screech) horn blow on the LRT is at the South Loop and that is because it is hauling arse at that point. They also use that horn for people or cars that may be in the way. Otherwise, they just use a ding ding bell.

There is more than just one "scheduled" horn on the Red Line. Anywhere you see a yellow "HORN" sign in the median between the tracks, the operator is supposed to sounds the horn. Off the top of my head, I know they have them at Greenbriar at Braeswood, Fannin at Braeswood, and Main at Wheeler.

[editor]

There will be an announcement tomorrow morning (Thursday, March 20th) outlining Metro's $2 billion rail expansion plan.

[KinkaidAlum]

They ride transit because they have to. It is an affordability issue. If they could afford it, most would move to a suburb with a better school district and buy more and better cars, not blinking an eye at the fact that transit would be less accessible. If it happened to be nearby (but not across the street from them), its seen as an amenity, albeit not a very important one if they're already able to afford the 'American dream'. If the transit is right across the street, its seen as at least a nuisance (from noise and activity) and as at most a danger to the safety of their children (from incompetent bus drivers with poor reflexes or from unsavory persons).

You see transit from an entirely different perspective. You're thinking about it in the context of yuppie neighborhoods rather than ghettos. You're thinking about it with an eye towards environmentalism. You commute to a hub of mostly white collar employment where parking is expensive, whereas they're ultimately trying to catch a bus that'll take them to a service-sector job in an area that's not quite urban and would have plentiful parking if only they could afford a car. You don't have a kid about which to be paranoid and protective...either of the kid or the kid's economic welfare...provided by you.

You've got to learn to see through another person's eyes. Not everybody has the same preferences, and if they happen to be different from your own, that shouldn't shock or offend you. There's often a method to the madness.

That's a great rant, Niche.

So, you led a focus group of 12 families on the Near Northside of Houston and have now concluded that they speak for all "poor Mexicans" everywhere?!?!?!?! This doesn't even begin to mention that Houston is made up of more than just "poor Mexicans"...

I worked at Jefferson Davis High on Quitman for 3 years. I can assure you that most people there will be happy to get the light rail extension. Sure, they'll have concerns about where stations are located and about children's safety issues on North Main and the tracks but most will LOVE the idea of being less cut off from the city.

Also, it's quite laughable that you do not consider that there are THOUSANDS of service sector jobs along the light rail. Who do you think cleans the office buildings and hospitals? Who do you think works at the Food Court in the Shops at Houston Center or down in the tunnel?

[KinkaidAlum]

I don't see a flaw. When it comes to useful and convenient things, people like to have them nearby, but not on their doorstep. I'd like to be walking distance to a grocery store, but don't wan't to live across the street from one. Lots of human foot traffic that close is a nuisance and a safety issue, even if you're a poor Mexican.

Oh really?

You don't see a flaw in that? Really?

So, you would agree with the Niche that "poor Mexicans" who rely on public transit for work would rather live in areas WITHOUT ANY ACCESS TO TRANSIT than to live directly adjacent to a bus stop or rail station? Really?

Sorry, but that is beyond stupid unless the Niche's focus group questions went something like this;

1) Which would you choose

a) To live in your ghetto right next to a bus stop used by parolees

or

To live in a fantasy land in which you magically own a pimped out Yukon with 22 inch rims and a sprawling home out in Fort Bend County complete with a swimming pool and 4 car garage?

[ricco67]

o live in a fantasy land in which you magically own a pimped out Yukon with 22 inch rims and a sprawling home out in Fort Bend County complete with a swimming pool and 4 car garage?

Or a pimped out Yukon with 22 inch rims in a ghetto? I'm just sayin'.

[Jax]

Good points Kinkaid. I was thinking along the same lines.

They ride transit because they have to. It is an affordability issue. If they could afford it, most would move to a suburb with a better school district and buy more and better cars

But since they can't afford it, they won't be moving to the suburbs and buying more and better cars, so why are you even talking about that? Even if a few people are inconvenienced by the fact that they have a station near their house, what about the vast majority of people who don't live directly across from the stations and who don't necessarily have cars, and actually want more and better public transportation options? It's not like ALL of the people in the neighborhoods to be served by light rail would have a station next to their house, we're talking about something on the order of 10s of families out of thousands (or hundreds of thousands) that would be affected, right??

're thinking about it in the context of yuppie neighborhoods rather than ghettos

I'm not thinking in terms of only yuppie neighborhoods, I'm thinking in terms of the neighborhoods that will be served by the light rail which will include a wide range of demographics. Don't forget I'm a grad student living on an incredibly tight budget. I want a fast, convenient, affordable way to get to work as much as the working class does.

Just because I'd rather have a private helicopter than ride the Metro Rail to school, doesn't mean I think public transport should not be built.

You've got to learn to see through another person's eyes. Not everybody has the same preferences, and if they happen to be different from your own, that shouldn't shock or offend you. There's often a method to the madness.

You seem to have no problem looking at the issue through the eyes of those few families living near stations, but you don't seem to be able to see it through the eyes of the majority of people who will be using the transit system.

[crunchtastic]

Oh really?

You don't see a flaw in that? Really?

So, you would agree with the Niche that "poor Mexicans" who rely on public transit for work would rather live in areas WITHOUT ANY ACCESS TO TRANSIT than to live directly adjacent to a bus stop or rail station? Really?

Sorry, but that is beyond stupid unless the Niche's focus group questions went something like this;

1) Which would you choose

a) To live in your ghetto right next to a bus stop used by parolees

or

To live in a fantasy land in which you magically own a pimped out Yukon with 22 inch rims and a sprawling home out in Fort Bend County complete with a swimming pool and 4 car garage?

Hyperbole aside, I believe that it is entirely possible and believable that someone who has a need for mass transit doesn't want to necessarily live right next to it.

[Jax]

Hyperbole aside, I believe that it is entirely possible and believable that someone who has a need for mass transit doesn't want to necessarily live right next to it.

I don't have a problem believing that it might not be their first choice, but when faced with a choice between that or no transit, I have a hard time believing that they would chose no transit.

And even if a few people did chose no transit, that still only reflects the opinions of a few people who end up living directly adjacent to stations. The vast majority does not.

[musicman]

You seem to have no problem looking at the issue through the eyes of those few families living near stations, but you don't seem to be able to see it through the eyes of the majority of people who will be using the transit system.

remember, the majority of people don't use the transit system.

[Jax]

Remember, that the majority of poor people do use the transit system.

Obviously, the majority of Houstonians don't use mass transit. My comment was about the majority of transit users, not the general majority.

[musicman]

Remember, that the majority of poor people do use the transit system.

i think you mean the majority of people who use the transit system are poor. the majority of poor people don't use the transit system otherwise METRO's ridership would be a lot higher.

[rsb320]

There is more than just one "scheduled" horn on the Red Line. Anywhere you see a yellow "HORN" sign in the median between the tracks, the operator is supposed to sounds the horn. Off the top of my head, I know they have them at Greenbriar at Braeswood, Fannin at Braeswood, and Main at Wheeler.

Okay, the train has three sounds, a really loud screech, a more traditional train-sounding horn and a bell. The only time they use the obnoxious horn is at the S. Loop. You can hardly hear the one that they use at the locations you mention on the inside of the train, so I wouldn't think it would be disturbing for neighbors.

[Jax]

i think you mean the majority of people who use the transit system are poor. the majority of poor people don't use the transit system otherwise METRO's ridership would be a lot higher.

Maybe I should have said the majority of people who don't have cars use the transit system.

Regardless, it's not relevant here. I was talking about the views of the majority of transit users, and your reply was "the majority of people don't use transit". My initial point wasn't about the majority of people it was about the majority of transit users.

[crunchtastic]

Maybe I should have said the majority of people who don't have cars use the transit system.

Regardless, it's not relevant here. I was talking about the views of the majority of transit users, and your reply was "the majority of people don't use transit". My initial point wasn't about the majority of people it was about the majority of transit users.

not picking on you, Jax, but

I wonder what a Venn diagram of this thread would look like?

[KinkaidAlum]

Hyperbole aside, I believe that it is entirely possible and believable that someone who has a need for mass transit doesn't want to necessarily live right next to it.

I totally agree with you.

That said, the Niche claimed the people in his focus group would rather be WITHOUT transit options entirely in their neighborhood rather than live right next to them.

[editor]

Any chance we can start talking about the issue rather than picking apart the individual words of the argument?

[lockmat]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/hei...ws/5721370.html

East End rail line set to extend to the Magnolia Transit Center

[Trae]

Didn't I read this like two weeks ago? Is the Chron late again?

[World_Explorer]

Do they really expect to have all these LRT lines completed by 2012? I just can't believe how slow this process is moving.

[HtownWxBoy]

Metro pushing ahead with second rail line (East End Line)

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/stories...tml?jst=b_ln_hl

Metropolitan Transit Authority of Harris County has chosen Parsons Transportation Group for the next phase of the authority's light rail project.

The agency awarded a $77.3 million contract to Washington Group International in May 2007 for Phase I development work, but decided to go with Washington, D.C.-based Parsons, an infrastructure developer, for Phase 2, according to Metro.

Metro's decision not to work further with WGI was based on factors including "failure to deliver an acceptable and reasonable price for the next phase of construction and its failure to deliver on promises made in its original proposal," Frank Wilson, Metro's president and chief executive officer, said in a statement.

Parsons was one of three contractors bidding on the light rail's second phase, which will begin with the East End rail line in June. The East End rail corridor will begin downtown off of the Southeast line and go east to the Magnolia Transit Center Station.

The contract with Parsons will award $12 million to the company through December.