METRO Solutions Inner City Corridor Construction

[wakester]

Nothing adds to LRT ridership like poor people adapting to new bus routes. ...except possibly for offsite parking with replacable shuttle service.

What is so bad about building your transportation system around LRT/BRT/Express buses? I see these lines as the equivalent of the Expressways and the bus routes like the local streets. Would you not want to have crosstown traffic on the higher capacity mass transit lines then local buses? I would hope as the upcoming lines come online the bus routes could change to be more local services. So someone who lives on the Southeast side of town and needs to get to Uptown or Westheimer to work would catch a local bus to the University line, transfer to the Uptown line, and then catch an Express bus line down Westheimer. The key is that the transit lines run so frequent that the transfer is not that bad. People that complain about the poor people who used to only take a couple of buses across town and now must make multiple transfers to the transit lines have never ridden a local bus crosstown. They take forever as they are constantly stopping.

I think if you look at any properly run transit system and you will find that this is how they are setup.

[musicman]

My sense of the funding issue is that many high-ridership bus routes throughout the dense and poor areas of southwest Houston will be rerouted to put more people on the University Line, which at that point becomes a shoe-in for federal funding. Many of these people aren't commuters headed for office employment centers or upscale retail in Uptown and many will transfer to other parts of the system or back to busses to get to their final destination, but as long as a warm body passed through the system, the feds don't care as to why.

The Uptown route has three problems: 1) it serves areas with more affluent ridership, and the more wealthy people are the more they tend to drive, 2) it isn't as well tied in to the bus network, so it doesn't lend itself to ridership manipulation, and 3) as many cities are competing for limited federal funds, METRO has to keep costs per rider down to ensure a reasonable chance at getting funding.

i have to agree. i also think that the galleria population tends to be more affluent which would make them less likely to use mass transit.

[musicman]

But you also miss the point that quite a few people at the various hotels DON'T rent a car. With that and the people that would gladly park their cars at the P&R to avoid the traffic (if the stop is near where they work). Plus there are a number of people to go TO the galleria for work from the inner loop. The ridership numbers are (theoretically) there, it's a matter of putting the rubber to the road, or steel to the rail, or whatever.

IMO you're overestimating the number of people. yes some people come to houston and don't rent vehicles but IMO it isn't a considerable number. the number of people that live near the red line is small relatively. i'd bet the university segment has more, however i wouldn't think it would be a considerable number of people either.

[wakester]

i have to agree. i also think that the galleria population tends to be more affluent which would make them less likely to use mass transit.

I think people shy away from a local bus but would have no problem taking the train. If I lived in one of those Uptown condos, it would be nice to walk to Post Oak jump on the train (BRT) to go to the Galleria. It would beat walking to your car, driving to the Galleria, looking for a parking space, and then walking to the mall.

[musicman]

Most tourists/visitors don't like renting cars.

i agree with your statement however i'll bet most tourists/visitors do rent cars.

I think people shy away from a local bus but would have no problem taking the train. If I lived in one of those Uptown condos, it would be nice to walk to Post Oak jump on the train (BRT) to go to the Galleria. It would beat walking to your car, driving to the Galleria, looking for a parking space, and then walking to the mall.

I think if it is convenient/quicker people would take the train, however i'm not sure whether the justification is there to serve a relatively small number of people.

[Jax]

It's not about how many people currently visit Houston chose not to rent a car - it's about how the number of visitors using public transportation will increase if we have a good transit system.

I agree - I don't think affluent people will have a problem taking the metro - as long as it's more convenient than driving (such as wakester's example).

[wakester]

I think if it is convenient/quicker people would take the train, however i'm not sure whether the justification is there to serve a relatively small number of people.

Of course if it was being built just for them then it would not justify the cost. But it isn't.

[musicman]

It's not about how many people currently visit Houston chose not to rent a car - it's about how the number of visitors using public transportation will increase if we have a good transit system.

I agree - I don't think affluent people will have a problem taking the metro - as long as it's more convenient than driving (such as wakester's example).

IMO the visitor aspect is secondary at best. a good transit system should serve the most residents for a reasonable amount of money. I personally would rather keep the visitors in rental vehicles since the high taxes collected are committed for the stadiums/hotel construction.

the number trips that affluents will take won't be large. i don't see many taking the train to the galleria to shop. lugging the purchases around is too inconvenient.

Of course if it was being built just for them then it would not justify the cost. But it isn't.

i was just responding to your comment "If I lived in one of those Uptown condos"

i agree it isn't being built just for them but the ones near the station(s) are the ones who would like likely reap the benefits.

[KinkaidAlum]

The typical nay-sayers are out.

So, we don't see enough visitors to connect the two most popular areas of town with light rail even though it was just announced that Houston ranked 9th nationally in # of visitors?

Also, don't you think Houston would LOVE to lure bigger and better conventions to town with the offer of convenient public transportation between the two places with the biggest and best hotels?

And, since when was the Galleria area only filled with affluent people? Have you see the apartments that line Richmond and Westheimer?

Going further, the University Line will also service 4colleges with a combined enrollment of over 60,000 students (UH, TSU, HCC, and UST). Do college students not ride the rail? Is that why Rice actually buys passes for students and gives incoming freshman Houston passport packets encouraging students to explore the city?

Additionally, last time I checked, there were plenty of non-affluent folks in the Third Ward and in the pockets of Montrose that actually straddle Richmond Avenue.

Finally, when I've been on the Red Line, I've seen doctors, nurses, and season ticket holders for Texans football riding the rails. Am I to assume that they are poor since they can't afford to drive a car since only the less affluent would bother riding a train?

[musicman]

So, we don't see enough visitors to connect the two most popular areas of town with light rail even though it was just announced that Houston ranked 9th nationally in # of visitors?

IMO visitors don't sustain a public transportation system, residents do.

Also, don't you think Houston would LOVE to lure bigger and better conventions to town with the offer of convenient public transportation between the two places with the biggest and best hotels?

transportation is always a plus. however when conventioneers are spending $250 for a bottle of patron and $150 for a pitcher of margaritas, a taxi ride is easily a more convenient option. i spoke to a friend who is a manager at a downtown hotel this weekend and he mentioned these figures to which i was shocked!

And, since when was the Galleria area only filled with affluent people? Have you see the apartments that line Richmond and Westheimer?

mention the galleria area to anyone and i don't think anyone will respond it is a poor area. i wouldn't say that apartments are for the poor either which is what you're implying.

Going further, the University Line will also service 4colleges with a combined enrollment of over 60,000 students (UH, TSU, HCC, and UST). Do college students not ride the rail? Is that why Rice actually buys passes for students and gives incoming freshman Houston passport packets encouraging students to explore the city?

of course students will be more likely to ride the rail, but i don't see UH getting rid of parking lots in the near future cause the rail will be going nearby. For the tuition the rice students pay, i'd hope the school would splurge on transit passes since it really isn't a transit school.

Additionally, last time I checked, there were plenty of non-affluent folks in the Third Ward and in the pockets of Montrose that actually straddle Richmond Avenue.

i'm not quesitoning that people who ride the bus now won't ride the rail. these are the only assured riders and are currently being served by a fine bus service.

Finally, when I've been on the Red Line, I've seen doctors, nurses, and season ticket holders for Texans football riding the rails. Am I to assume that they are poor since they can't afford to drive a car since only the less affluent would bother riding a train?

you could assume that but it would be a poor assumption. i think most people on haif agree that affluent tend to shy away from buses but will ride the trains if it saves them time.

[TheNiche]

Most tourists/visitors don't like renting cars. I could definitely see a lot of people using the metro to go uptown and shop or to go downtown from the uptown hotels. Even rich people like to take public transportations when it's convenient (that is the key). At least the ones I know in Atlanta and DC and New York and Toronto and Montreal do. A wealthy person wouldn't walk miles to take the metro (not even in New York), but if it's close and easy, of course they will.

I would agree that most tourists and visitors don't like renting cars (unless they're here on business, in which case they typically get to expense it). But I would contend that most tourists in Houston would prefer to have full mobility throughout all parts of the city rather than just those parts with rail access, don't want to worry about hauling luggage on a train or it getting stolen, and may appreciate an onboard navigation system in the rental car or a taxi driver (also expensable) that can take you exactly where you want to go without getting lost, especially if getting lost might or might not involve sharing space on board with a bunch of poor folks in a bad neighborhood.

Tourists also will have a need to get from wherever they came from to wherever they are staying. A lot of tourists are actually visiting family, in which case they typically don't need transit and only a very small slice of households being visited will actually live anywhere along the route. A whole lot of tourists are from within the State and drive here to begin with. Those tourists that do fly are likely to rent a car to begin with because taxi rates to the urban core are so high, and those that do take a taxi have probably arranged to stay in a hotel that is very close to where they intend to do business or shop. The Galleria area has plenty of dining and entertainment options, so unless they're intimately familiar with what is available and where they want to go that is along transit routes, they're unlikely to leave the immediate neighborhood. Furthermore, even to make their business appointments nearby, taxis may be a preferred option if the tourists aren't familiar with where the stops are or the frequency of operation...or just if the heat and humidity would make any amount of walking undesirable. ...these excuses may sound pathetic, but most of our tourists in the Galleria area are on business, so they don't want to show up at appointments all sweaty and greasy, and they aren't typically willing to risk being late from having tried a transit system with unknown frequency or reliability or unfamiliar stops.

By the way, all of the cities you mentioned have airport lines...and those airport lines tend not to have as much ridership as other parts of their transit system. It is that same ridership problem that is keeping any airport lines in Houston from being pursued. Not enough tourists to justify them!

[TheNiche]

It's not about how many people currently visit Houston chose not to rent a car - it's about how the number of visitors using public transportation will increase if we have a good transit system.

Why do you care so much that visitors take public transit?

I agree - I don't think affluent people will have a problem taking the metro - as long as it's more convenient than driving (such as wakester's example).

Even in cases where an affluent person lives and works along a single line and doesn't need to transfer (an incredibly rare case), affluent people value their time greatly and walking to or from a station and waiting twice for a vehicle to arrive is not appreciated, especially if exposure to the elements is a part of that wait. And that the transit vehicle stops with great frequency keeps the average speed of travel very slow.

Since affluent people can afford cars and value their time, the majority will save their time and use their cars.

...and frankly, there is another factor. Rich folks and po' folks don't mix very well, and it ain't the po' folks actively segregating themselves from the rich, either.

[musicman]

...and frankly, there is another factor. Rich folks and po' folks don't mix very well, and it ain't the po' folks actively segregating themselves from the rich, either.

LOL very true.

[TheNiche]

What is so bad about building your transportation system around LRT/BRT/Express buses? I see these lines as the equivalent of the Expressways and the bus routes like the local streets. Would you not want to have crosstown traffic on the higher capacity mass transit lines then local buses? I would hope as the upcoming lines come online the bus routes could change to be more local services. So someone who lives on the Southeast side of town and needs to get to Uptown or Westheimer to work would catch a local bus to the University line, transfer to the Uptown line, and then catch an Express bus line down Westheimer. The key is that the transit lines run so frequent that the transfer is not that bad. People that complain about the poor people who used to only take a couple of buses across town and now must make multiple transfers to the transit lines have never ridden a local bus crosstown. They take forever as they are constantly stopping.

I think if you look at any properly run transit system and you will find that this is how they are setup.

People in cars take freeways rather than local streets because it saves them time. The po' folks I've talked with were largely dissatisfied with METRO's bus route changes because the multiple transfers and less direct routes added to their total trip time. ...also I don't know if you've realized, but the Red Line is really really slow. It averages 19mph. Yeah, that's faster than the average speed of a bus, but it's nothing to brag about either--especially considering that the highest speeds are realized at the southern end of the route, which is the part with lowest ridership and least transfers.

If this is how properly run transit systems are, then we need to stop investing in transit. IMO, we don't need to stop investing in transit, so that could only mean one thing...

[TheNiche]

Also, don't you think Houston would LOVE to lure bigger and better conventions to town with the offer of convenient public transportation between the two places with the biggest and best hotels?

That has what to do with federal funding for the Uptown route?

And, since when was the Galleria area only filled with affluent people? Have you see the apartments that line Richmond and Westheimer?

Those are prime targets for redevelopment. Also, very few within anything close to a reasonable walking distance actually "line" Richmond or Westheimer. The crappy ones off of Richmond are on the other side of a freeway from Post Oak Blvd. The crappy ones off Westheimer (that line Sage and McCue) are at the periphery of what urban planners consider walking distance...and the rental rates are high enough that I wouldn't consider most of the tenants to be poor.

Going further, the University Line will also service 4colleges with a combined enrollment of over 60,000 students (UH, TSU, HCC, and UST). Do college students not ride the rail? Is that why Rice actually buys passes for students and gives incoming freshman Houston passport packets encouraging students to explore the city?

That has what to do with federal funding for the Uptown route?

Additionally, last time I checked, there were plenty of non-affluent folks in the Third Ward and in the pockets of Montrose that actually straddle Richmond Avenue.

That has what to do with federal funding for the Uptown route?

Finally, when I've been on the Red Line, I've seen doctors, nurses, and season ticket holders for Texans football riding the rails. Am I to assume that they are poor since they can't afford to drive a car since only the less affluent would bother riding a train?

That has what to do with federal funding for the Uptown route?

Also, there are no hospitals with ridiculously highly-priced contract parking, governing bodies that dictate how much remote parking an employment center will have, or stadia in Uptown. Also, nobody has stated a ridiculous comment such as that "without exception, nobody but the poor rides light rail." So don't react as though that's what you read.

[Jax]

IMO visitors don't sustain a public transportation system, residents do.

My point wasn't that visitors alone would sustain a public transport system, but the combination of residents and visitors who stay in the many hotels in the areas the public transit system will service.

of course students will be more likely to ride the rail, but i don't see UH getting rid of parking lots in the near future cause the rail will be going nearby. For the tuition the rice students pay, i'd hope the school would splurge on transit passes since it really isn't a transit school.

It's not about Rice being a transit school. It's about Rice students (who generally don't have cars) being encouraged to explore the city, and I think it's really a great thing. Without the metro passes, many Rice students would simply be isolated on campus. Keep in mind that most grad students don't pay tuition and live off of stipends (about 20k per year) and many live off campus and commute because Rice's on campus housing is too expensive. And half of the student body are grad students. So the Metro passes are really important to us!

[musicman]

My point wasn't that visitors alone would sustain a public transport system, but the combination of residents and visitors who stay in the many hotels in the areas the public transit system will service.

I understand...IMO the numbers aren't noteworthy currently, but do understand.

It's not about Rice being a transit school. It's about Rice students (who generally don't have cars) being encouraged to explore the city, and I think it's really a great thing. Without the metro passes, many Rice students would simply be isolated on campus. Keep in mind that most grad students don't pay tuition and live off of stipends (about 20k per year) and many live off campus and commute because Rice's on campus housing is too expensive. And half of the student body are grad students. So the Metro passes are really important to us!

LOL i'm not sure i agree with the bolded argument. Rice students (both grad and undergrad) are doing several projects in my neighborhood, pecan park, one involving wireless internet and another involving internet use and how it has changed/influenced your everyday life. i'm participating in both. the students involved in these projects all drive their own cars. one of the sociology majors told me that she's from a single parent household, struggles for money, but still drives her old nissan.

[Jax]

In my experience, most students don't drive. I guess it's mainly the international and out of state students who lack cars, as anybody who grows up in Houston probably already has one. By the sounds of it, those people may not have been able to even participate in those research projects without a car. Unfortunately, that's sometimes the case. Anyways, rail to the Galleria would benefit just about everybody I know at Rice, that was my point. I think the fact that the galleria is a major shopping destination would give it high ridership, as just about everybody from every other part of the metro line would want to go there at some point.

And I think I misread your statement about Rice. I thought you were assuming that since the tuition is high, everybody has money and therefore everybody can afford a car and that is what you meant by "Rice isn't a transit school" (I was thinking you meant "Rice isn't a public transit school). I see that may not be the case.

There are a lot of people at Rice living off of low salaries (grad students, technicians, maintenance staff, etc.) and people with huge debts, as well as the incredibly rich people who's parents pay for everything.

[musicman]

Anyways, rail to the Galleria would benefit just about everybody I know at Rice, that was my point.

how many students are at rice approximately? i was thinking 4k or 5k.

[TheNiche]

LOL i'm not sure i agree with the bolded argument. Rice students (both grad and undergrad) are doing several projects in my neighborhood, pecan park, one involving wireless internet and another involving internet use and how it has changed/influenced your everyday life. i'm participating in both. the students involved in these projects all drive their own cars. one of the sociology majors told me that she's from a single parent household, struggles for money, but still drives her old nissan.

No, Jax is right. A lot of Rice students indeed do not drive or get out beyond the immediate neighborhood very often.

...but in spite of its perceived importance to Rice students, the Rice/Hermann Park station remains one of the lowest ridership stations along the Red Line, so it doesn't do much to bolster the argument for federal funding.

[Jax]

Yeah like 5k or so I think. It's pretty small. But then there are faculty, post docs, research technicians, and other staff members as well. Rice has one of the highest student / professor ratios anywhere (5-1), so that would be 1000 faculty. Of course Rice alone won't make a huge impact but it's the sum of all the small ridership sources that will make an impact.

I really like the idea of having all of Houston's major universities connected. I like the idea of Rice people being able to go to U of H as easily as Baylor to work on collaborative research.

Niche: Where can I see the ridership stats for specific stations?

[musicman]

...but in spite of its perceived importance to Rice students, the Rice/Hermann Park station remains one of the lowest ridership stations along the Red Line, so it doesn't do much to bolster the argument for federal funding.

that's why i was wondering what the student population was.

[Trae]

i have to agree. i also think that the galleria population tends to be more affluent which would make them less likely to use mass transit.

Buckhead in Atlanta is affluent, but people always use MARTA there.

[TheNiche]

Niche: Where can I see the ridership stats for specific stations?

I've acquired it from METRO a couple times in the past. Go through the bureaucracy and eventually you'll get lucky.

[musicman]

Buckhead in Atlanta is affluent, but people always use MARTA there.

what are the ridership numbers there in buckhead? last time i went to buckhead i had to drive to my destinations.

[TheNiche]

Buckhead in Atlanta is affluent, but people always use MARTA there.

Give me what you would consider the boundaries of Buckhead. I'll then pull Census data and see just how many commuters use MARTA.

[Trae]

what are the ridership numbers there in buckhead? last time i went to buckhead i had to drive to my destinations.

Well, when I am there, trains are packed both ways (to the north to the Perimeter Center and to the south down to Midtown/Downtown).

Give me what you would consider the boundaries of Buckhead. I'll then pull Census data and see just how many commuters use MARTA.

Boundaries of Buckhead would be: Lindbergh Drive to the South, Windsor Parkway to the north, Peachtree Road intersection with Wesley to the west, and Dresden and Peachtree Road intersection to the east.

[sevfiv]

regarding Rice...

the Fall 2006 total student enrollment was right around 5,000:

http://www.explore.rice.edu/explore/Quick_...?SnID=829623592

Back in 2001, Rice bought the Morningside Square Apartments on Shakespeare St. for increased graduate housing (link here), but are now demolishing them to make way for "Shakespeare Graduate Apartments" (about 250 beds - link here).

The old complex had 53 units, most one bedroom, so this will also increase some on-foot grad student presence after school hours.

[Jax]

Yep, 5000 students, and about 50% of those are graduate students. Thanks for the updated stats.

Everybody I know (grad students) who lived in either Morningside or the Rice Grad Apartments on Bissonnet left after one year (sometimes sooner). The Rice student housing is expensive, just as far away from campus as an average apartment building, and less nice. I've always lived off campus but within walking distance.

Maybe if the new Shakespeare Apartments are nice enough people will stay there, who knows. It does add a lot of space. I know Rice is aiming to increase the student body, so that is probably why they are adding so much housing for grad students. They are also building new undergrad residences.

Too bad the walk from the village to the metro rail is so long.

[MarkD]

...but in spite of its perceived importance to Rice students, the Rice/Hermann Park station remains one of the lowest ridership stations along the Red Line, so it doesn't do much to bolster the argument for federal funding.

FYI - when I was at Rice I used the light rail all the time (for a while as my primary mode of transportation) and I hardly ever used the "Rice" stop since it is actually further from most of the dorms and classrooms than the "Memorial Hermann" stop. Not that Rice really has enough ridership in itself to justify spending much on the light rail system, but the low ridership at the "Rice" station is probably mostly due to it not being very close to most of the Rice campus... I'd be curious if the Rice administration has any feeling for how much people use it. At some point they were giving out metro passes (to the undergrads, grad students had to buy them). I wonder how many students actually took advantage of this?