Old METRORail Plan

[musicman]

i'm confused, the map on post 1 shows the rail going to iah. i'm not sure i understand how it stops at northline.

can you post a link where it shows specifics on what streets that particular line of rail will be going through?

or, can anyone post such a link to clarify this?

i'm hearing a bunch of rumors due to future projects and i just want to be clear on this issue.

as the title states, this is the old plan. METRO backed off of this when the actual election happened. here's the resulting voted on segment of the north corridor

north corridor terminus

[TexasArchitect]

north corridor terminus

perfect, that's the link i needed. thanks.

[Highway6]

How efficient is the MARTA setup ? I don't know how Atlanta really works beyond looking at gmaps and their wikipedia article so i really don't know.

This is what I have gathered... someone that knows the city well feel free to correct my assumptions and answer my questions.

The rail component is basically one E-W spine and one N-S spine connected downtown. And it looks to be basically a feeder system, fed my the bus components that connect to the 38 stations on the spines.

I ran the times from the 4 endpoint to downtown and it looks like their rail bascially runs twice as fast as ours at 1/2mile a min.

Ours does have better frequency though.. every 6 minutes throughout the weekday. Marta rail is every 10 mins durning morning and afternoon peak, 15 the rest of the work day.

Marta's rail lines basically follow the freeway system. Yes, it hits up major areas like their midtown and buckhead.. but in following the freeways, how much residential is it hitting up ?

I guess, i don't know how many places of importance are off these two spines that are being missed.. where are their theatre districts, musuems, universities, shopping areas, hospital areas ? Are all these immediately asccessible from the heavy rail or do you have to get to them by transfering to bus ?

Also, while these two line have the speeds closer to want we would want and closer to that of a commuter line... these lines don't go past their loop freeway out into the suburbs. Wiki says that part of the reason is the other 3 major counites besides Fulton that make up the Atlanta metro area what nothing to do with the MARTA.

So yeah, their rail system is 25 yrs old, well established... and its fast... but i guess overall can someone tell me how well does their entire system work and what doesnt work about it

[RedScare]

citykid, here's an article written by an Atlanta resident about MARTA.

MARTAs Fallen And It Can't Get Up.

If you bothered to read it, it paints a starkly different picture of MARTA than you do. In fact, here is an interesting quote about the trains themselves.

Despite the relative youth of MARTA's rail lines (the first train ran from the Avondale station to Georgia State in June 1979), most of the system's cars are so outdated that MARTA can't get parts for them. The maintenance department either has to make the parts itself or hire another company to customize them.

When a train breaks down, which happens about once a day, it's up to line supervisors like Williams to get there fast. He must fix the car that stopped working, patch it temporarily or move it out of the way.

The article also states that ridership has fallen 15%. I realize you like it because it looks "urban" and "cool" like NYC, but what good is a rail system, if it is broken?

[Houston19514]

citykid09, we had to start somewhere. Comparing Houston's MetroRail to Atlanta's MARTA is not exactly fair, as the two are using very different technologies, and MARTA started well over 20 years ago. When you look at light rail systems in the US (not "heavy" rail systems like MARTA), it's rare you see more than three car trains; two car and single car trains are more common due to a variety of reasons. I've ridden true light rail systems in Houston, Dallas, San Francisco, Boston, San Jose, Portland, Minneapolis, and San Diego. I can tell you that all of these have many similarities to MetroRail in Houston. Large sections of light rail in San Francisco, Boston, Dallas, and Portland are street running, often with even less separation from automobile traffic than what Houston has.

As for steps, Houston has just about the most accessible, step free, light rail system in the US, if not the world. All of MetroRail's boarding platforms are handicap accessible, and there are no steps required to reach the boarding platforms at any of our stops. All of MetroRail's trains feature low-floor boarding that is level with the boarding platform. NONE of Dallas's trains offer this feature. On all DART trains you must climb steps, and if a handicapped passenger is boarding, the train has to wait while the operator deploys a ramp and then assists the passenger with boarding. About half of Portland's don't (Portland often runs one low-floor car with one of the older high-floor cars in a train set to make the system accessible). San Francisco's new Breda light rail cars are high-floor cars, with convertible steps. In the downtown subway the train floor is level with the boarding platforms, which are higher than what's normally used for light rail, because the subway was designed for the larger BART trains. However, outside of the subway, on most routes the steps are lowered and boarding requires climbing several steps. In Boston, passengers must climb steps to board the light rail cars (KinkaidAlum may correct me... but I don't remember any level-boarding, low floor LRVs in Boston). My point is, MetroRail is one of the few US systems that features level boarding, with no steps, at all stops. The reason there is a section at both ends of each MetroRail LRV that is elevated is because the sections at the ends of the car are sitting above the train's motorized drive wheels. All low-floor LRVs that I've seen in the US have this type of setup, and the only ones where the floor is completely level throughout the train are high-floor LRVs, which usually require climbing steps to board the train.

MetroRail in Houston is not perfect. However, it has great ridership and is used by thousands of commuters every day. It's just a start, and if it wasn't for Metro being jerked around constantly by selfish politicians, we'd probably already have more rail fully funded and under construction.

That map was never for Phase 1 of the Metro Solutions plan. The initial extension of the Red Line was always planned to go as far as Northline, with eventual extension to Greenspoint and IAH. As I posted yesterday, that map was never intended to reflect the initial expansion of MetroRail, and Metro was very clear about this back in 2003 when the Metro Solutions plan was approved by voters. The map posted above reflects the eventual construction plan, which was looking forward about 20 years into the future.

And even though Culberson is still in Congress, he is no longer on the transportation appropriations committee, which hopefully will help Metro.

Great post! Thanks for inserting some actual facts into the discussion.

[C2H]

Great post! Thanks for inserting some actual facts into the discussion.

There's definitely some conspiracy as to why Houston hasn't gotten rail. The Political leaders are obviously looking out for their buddies in the oil business trying to keep their pockets full. Just think about it, if more people use rail rather than their cars, that's gonna cut in to the profits of the oil/gas business. I believe Houston will get more rail eventually but it has to fight harder for it.

Citykid09, quit being so hard on Houston light rail. Houston is doing everything possible to try to get more rail. Cut METRO a break!

[Jax]

Actually, now that I think of it, last time I was in Atlanta a MARTA train broke down in front of us on the way from the airport, which left us stranded for about 45 minutes on the track while they fixed it. At least they had some TVs in the train showing commercials to keep us entertained. And I made friends with a couple riders including a Mexican guy who had been in the US for less than a week. I had to translate for him into English so some of the Atlanta residents on the train could give him directions!

[CDeb]

There's definitely some conspiracy as to why Houston hasn't gotten rail. The Political leaders are obviously looking out for their buddies in the oil business trying to keep their pockets full. Just think about it, if more people use rail rather than their cars, that's gonna cut in to the profits of the oil/gas business. I believe Houston will get more rail eventually but it has to fight harder for it.

I don't buy it. Even if Houston's transit share were at the national average (6%), that wouldn't make a nickel's difference to the oil company profits.

Besides, oil companies don't vote, people do. If a sizeable amount of voters made it known that they wanted transit, and a candidate's stance on it would sway their vote, then we'd get it next week.

[Trae]

citykid, here's an article written by an Atlanta resident about MARTA.

MARTAs Fallen And It Can't Get Up.

If you bothered to read it, it paints a starkly different picture of MARTA than you do. In fact, here is an interesting quote about the trains themselves.

The article also states that ridership has fallen 15%. I realize you like it because it looks "urban" and "cool" like NYC, but what good is a rail system, if it is broken?

That is a three year old article. Some of it is still true today, but 470,000 people riding MARTA trains is a lot. MARTA is still going through trouble now though, but it isn't as bad as it once was.

How efficient is the MARTA setup ? I don't know how Atlanta really works beyond looking at gmaps and their wikipedia article so i really don't know.

This is what I have gathered... someone that knows the city well feel free to correct my assumptions and answer my questions.

The rail component is basically one E-W spine and one N-S spine connected downtown. And it looks to be basically a feeder system, fed my the bus components that connect to the 38 stations on the spines.

I ran the times from the 4 endpoint to downtown and it looks like their rail bascially runs twice as fast as ours at 1/2mile a min.

Ours does have better frequency though.. every 6 minutes throughout the weekday. Marta rail is every 10 mins durning morning and afternoon peak, 15 the rest of the work day.

Marta's rail lines basically follow the freeway system. Yes, it hits up major areas like their midtown and buckhead.. but in following the freeways, how much residential is it hitting up ?

I guess, i don't know how many places of importance are off these two spines that are being missed.. where are their theatre districts, musuems, universities, shopping areas, hospital areas ? Are all these immediately asccessible from the heavy rail or do you have to get to them by transfering to bus ?

Also, while these two line have the speeds closer to want we would want and closer to that of a commuter line... these lines don't go past their loop freeway out into the suburbs. Wiki says that part of the reason is the other 3 major counites besides Fulton that make up the Atlanta metro area what nothing to do with the MARTA.

So yeah, their rail system is 25 yrs old, well established... and its fast... but i guess overall can someone tell me how well does their entire system work and what doesnt work about it

North and South is the busiest line. That line passes through the airport, Turner Field, all of the business areas Downtown, close to Atlantic Station (a trolley connects the two), through the Midtown Mile (so many new condo and residential projects going up there now). Then, it heads on north to Buckhead (more residential and office). From the airport to Buckhead, and passes through Atlanta's Arts District and GSU (Georgia State), via Five Points. The West-East Line passes through more single-family residential (Grant, East Point, DeKalb Bankhead, etc.).

[Houston19514]

That is a three year old article. Some of it is still true today, but 470,000 people riding MARTA trains is a lot. MARTA is still going through trouble now though, but it isn't as bad as it once was.

They said the whole MARTA system carries 470,000 people per day. That almost certainly is both trains and buses. And Metro carries more than that.

[citykid09]

Earth to You Two;

Metrorail isn't done. We've built ONE damn line. You cannot compare our "system" until we have one. I'll reserve comments until other lines are connected. What both of you fail to realize is that you have to start somewhere.

Our starting somewhere made a lot of sense. It connected UH Downtown, the Courts, Downtown, The Theater District, Minute Maid Park, Toyota Center, St Joseph's Hospital, Midtown, Museum District, HCC, Rice, Hermann Park, the Zoo, Texas Med Center, Baylor College of Medicine, UT Health Science Center, Prairie View ATM College of Nursing, UH Pharmacy, TSU Pharmacy, Reliant Stadium, and Reliant Hall (even Astroworld for a brief time). That ain't bad for a 7.5 mile line!

Additionally, Dallas and Atlanta would LOVE to have our ridership numbers and there are MANY cities in which you'll find step-ups on trains (like Boston's entire Green Line).

Start somewhere? what a terrible start,If Dallas and Atlanta had the same amount of rail Houston has, theres would still out do Houston's, Houston was built like a street car. A real transit line would have its own right of way.

I know about the Boston Green Line I road it plenty of times when I was there, from Newton all the way downtown, but that line is old and it also has a subway part when you head in to the city that connects to all of Bostons rails.

[Houston19514]

Start somewhere? what a terrible start,If Dallas and Atlanta had the same amount of rail Houston has, theres would still out do Houston's, Houston was built like a street car. A real transit line would have its own right of way.

I know about the Boston Green Line I road it plenty of times when I was there, from Newton all the way downtown, but that line is old and it also has a subway part when you head in to the city that connects to all of Bostons rails.

LOL You clearly don't have a clue about the subject. There is no way imaginable that either the Dallas or Atlanta systems would carry the traffic that Houston's does if they only had 7.5 miles of track. No way. Impossible. Under no circumstances.

[WesternGulf]

Start somewhere? what a terrible start,If Dallas and Atlanta had the same amount of rail Houston has, theres would still out do Houston's,

Dallas has seven times as many miles as Houston's and where almost right behind them on ridership for their whole system, but I am not exactly sure on what you are basing "out do".

[Trae]

Yeah, I don't get that part either CityKid (don't understand what you are saying). I think Metro should switch somethings around with the way they place MetroRail on the streets though. Why not rip up a side walk, and have the rail line on one part of the street (inside of in the middle)? They have that in Downtown Los Angeles.

[C2H]

Dallas has seven times as many miles as Houston's and where almost right behind them on ridership for their whole system, but I am not exactly sure on what you are basing "out do".

I sometimes share citykid's frustration with the slow progress of mass transit in Houston but his basis for arguments show he has no idea what he's talking about. If Houston's little 7.5 mile line can get more ridership than Dallas's entire system, that says something. Don't blame Houston or Metro, Blame the political leaders.

[Trae]

I sometimes share citykid's frustration with the slow progress of mass transit in Houston but his basis for arguments show he has no idea what he's talking about. If Houston's little 7.5 mile line can get more ridership that Dallas's entire system, that says something. Don't blame Houston or Metro, Blame the political leaders.

Dallas is at 64,000, we are at 40,000. Not quite pass them yet.

[WesternGulf]

Dallas is at 64,000, we are at 40,000. Not quite pass them yet.

Yeah I am not surprised those numbers have gone up. I remember when it was around 50,000. Still the fact that we only need 3 more miles, if we were averaging the ridership at around 5500 per mile, to pass DART's rail ridership says a lot.

[musicman]

Dallas is at 64,000, we are at 40,000. Not quite pass them yet.

but for the amount spent per passenger, looks like Houston got shafted less.

[citykid09]

citykid, here's an article written by an Atlanta resident about MARTA.

MARTAs Fallen And It Can't Get Up.

If you bothered to read it, it paints a starkly different picture of MARTA than you do. In fact, here is an interesting quote about the trains themselves.

The article also states that ridership has fallen 15%. I realize you like it because it looks "urban" and "cool" like NYC, but what good is a rail system, if it is broken?

That article is old (2004), When I went yes we road on an old train 1 time, but all the other trains where new with TVs in them showing news and weather updates from one of the local stations.

[citykid09]

How efficient is the MARTA setup ? I don't know how Atlanta really works beyond looking at gmaps and their wikipedia article so i really don't know.

This is what I have gathered... someone that knows the city well feel free to correct my assumptions and answer my questions.

The rail component is basically one E-W spine and one N-S spine connected downtown. And it looks to be basically a feeder system, fed my the bus components that connect to the 38 stations on the spines.

I ran the times from the 4 endpoint to downtown and it looks like their rail bascially runs twice as fast as ours at 1/2mile a min.

Ours does have better frequency though.. every 6 minutes throughout the weekday. Marta rail is every 10 mins durning morning and afternoon peak, 15 the rest of the work day.

Marta's rail lines basically follow the freeway system. Yes, it hits up major areas like their midtown and buckhead.. but in following the freeways, how much residential is it hitting up ?

I guess, i don't know how many places of importance are off these two spines that are being missed.. where are their theatre districts, musuems, universities, shopping areas, hospital areas ? Are all these immediately asccessible from the heavy rail or do you have to get to them by transfering to bus ?

Also, while these two line have the speeds closer to want we would want and closer to that of a commuter line... these lines don't go past their loop freeway out into the suburbs. Wiki says that part of the reason is the other 3 major counites besides Fulton that make up the Atlanta metro area what nothing to do with the MARTA.

So yeah, their rail system is 25 yrs old, well established... and its fast... but i guess overall can someone tell me how well does their entire system work and what doesnt work about it

Highway6, the MARTA line goes to all the good areas and yes plenty of inner city neighborhoods. We where able to leave or hotel in downtown and ride it to Buckhead where they have Lenox Mall and Phips plaza (like the galleria) we only went to lenox mall, but the station stops right at the mall, its pretty cool. There where suburban housewives on the trains with there kids, business people etc.

MARTA does go in to the suburbs just not the suburbs outside of the loop.

[citykid09]

Dallas has seven times as many miles as Houston's and where almost right behind them on ridership for their whole system, but I am not exactly sure on what you are basing "out do".

You got me on that one, but I was thinking of the quality aspect not the quantity!

[Trae]

Highway6, the MARTA line goes to all the good areas and yes plenty of inner city neighborhoods. We where able to leave or hotel in downtown and ride it to Buckhead where they have Lenox Mall and Phips plaza (like the galleria) we only went to lenox mall, but the station stops right at the mall, its pretty cool. There where suburban housewives on the trains with there kids, business people etc.

MARTA does go in to the suburbs just not the suburbs outside of the loop.

MARTA doesn't go into the suburbs. It goes to Sandy Springs/Dunwoody, but that's it. The rest is in Atlanta.

[RedScare]

That article is old (2004), When I went yes we road on an old train 1 time, but all the other trains where new with TVs in them showing news and weather updates from one of the local stations.

You are right. The article is 3 years old. Since that article came out, service cuts of as much as 35% have occurred, fares were raised to the highest in the nation, no expansion or construction projects have occurred or are planned, and the system is running in the red. Only 3 counties in the 20 county metro area contribute to MARTA. It is only 48 miles long, on 2 lines. Even DART is longer. Houston's system will be longer by 2012.

In short, MARTA is a broken down, money losing, outdated piece of crap. Apparently, the only reason you like it is it reminds you of a 1970s era subway in the New York ghettos. That is OK for you, but no one in Houston or Dallas would ride a system that breaks down for hours at a time. At least our toy trains actually RUN. And, we are spending money to expand it. I'll take a well running, expanding system over a broken, bankrupt system any day. You can have MARTA.

[Trae]

Houston's system won't be longer. Houston's system will be made up of BRT (unless something happens before then). Another thing, MARTA may not be expanding, but there are a lot of other agencies in the Atlanta area that are starting up their own transit services. I'll post some up soon. Read this article first though.

[citykid09]

You are right. The article is 3 years old. Since that article came out, service cuts of as much as 35% have occurred, fares were raised to the highest in the nation, no expansion or construction projects have occurred or are planned, and the system is running in the red. Only 3 counties in the 20 county metro area contribute to MARTA. It is only 48 miles long, on 2 lines. Even DART is longer. Houston's system will be longer by 2012.

In short, MARTA is a broken down, money losing, outdated piece of crap. Apparently, the only reason you like it is it reminds you of a 1970s era subway in the New York ghettos. That is OK for you, but no one in Houston or Dallas would ride a system that breaks down for hours at a time. At least our toy trains actually RUN. And, we are spending money to expand it. I'll take a well running, expanding system over a broken, bankrupt system any day. You can have MARTA.

MARTA is not broke down. How about this, you go to Atlanta ride MARTA and then come back to Houston, ride METRO and compare. EVEN COMPARE THE AIRPORTS! Tell me which city wins? And don't say Atlanta has more rail so they will, look past that and imagine its that same size as Houston's.

Remember this you can't have quantity without the quality, and Houston's rail line is not quality in my opinion. I hope METRO reads this!

Atlanta's MARTA

Houston's METRO

[C2H]

Dallas is at 64,000, we are at 40,000. Not quite pass them yet.

Oh, thanks, I guess their numbers went up from when i last was studying this stuff

[musicman]

Houston's system won't be longer. Houston's system will be made up of BRT (unless something happens before then). Another thing, MARTA may not be expanding, but there are a lot of other agencies in the Atlanta area that are starting up their own transit services. I'll post some up soon. Read this article first though.

according to the article looks like atlanta will be BRT/trolley because rail is too expensive. The MARTA board specified four projects as possible extensions: the Beltline trolley loop in Atlanta; bus-rapid transit lines on I-20 east to DeKalb County and west to west Fulton; and a transit link to the Emory-Clifton corridor area. the article says people are against it because it doesn't serve the suburban areas only the urban ones. hmmm with houston being larger, looks like that will even be more so.

wow looks like they are busting at the seams with riders.

[RedScare]

Houston's system won't be longer. Houston's system will be made up of BRT (unless something happens before then). Another thing, MARTA may not be expanding, but there are a lot of other agencies in the Atlanta area that are starting up their own transit services. I'll post some up soon. Read this article first though.

Houston will have 16 miles of LRT, 28 miles of commuter rail, and 21 miles of BRT, which can be converted to LRT when ridership matches FTA funding requirements.

Why did you refer me to an article that proves my point that no expansion projects are going forward? All that article said was people want rail, but won't pay for it. I also said that any expansion would cost $100 million per mile. Since you and citykid don't seem to understand math, I'll explain it to you. FTA will NEVER fund a $100 million per mile expansion in sprawly Atlanta suburbs.

BTW, citykid, how's that Bryan College Station subway coming along?

[Chris]

Metrorail is planned to go all the way up I-45 North?

[citykid09]

Another MARTA picture.