Genetic "fix" for Gays

[bachanon]

avoiding conflicts at all cost? I'm confused bach, Maybe I never took notice or maybe it just means I don't fit the sterotype, but I always like to adress problems upfront & settles 'disputes'. Or maybe you were being sarcastic? I dunno, nice post though, but hint hint, I always thought you where *ahem*.

i see straight men, friends and family, who attack problems vehemently and honestly, they are specifically honest with themselves. most of the gay men i've met were like some of the delusional contestants on american idol. any disagreement and they jump off the logic train. i found it very frustrating to communicate with people in the gay community on an objective level. one of the endearing things about haif is the amount of intelligent discussion from gay and straight participants.

and, i was unloading in this particular thread. actually, "I" avoid conflict at all costs and was, more likely......definitely, describing personal flaws that i felt were connected to my identity.

i see the sacrifices my dad and friends have made for their families, and i spent my twenties and thirties running around partying with anyone i could find who didn't want to grow up. the world has grown up around me and i've refused to accept many necessary facts of life. as i'm sure you can see from my earlier posts.

[Pumapayam]

Don't you mean Anti-terrorist Persian ?

Non-terrorist actually, but same difference I guess.

Most of the gay men i've met were like some of the delusional contestants on american idol.

Those are the effeminate ones, and not to be self prejudice, I could care less for those too. They annoy the hell out of me.

[nmainguy]

You just aren't that important is all. You're just a person. Not special.

Well that's consistant with your posting history: people don't matter. But in the REAL world which you seem to have a hard time grasping, people do care and people are special. It says something about YOU when you say things like that; when you express a complete disregard of human life as you are wont to do. It says you are socialy cripple to the extent you can't even recognize the value of a person on so many levels

That you crave acceptance (and wear perceived martyrdom like a badge) seems indicative of underlying deep-seated insecurities that you have yet to overcome.

You seem to have a problem distinquishing between craving the same rights you have with acceptance. Again a sign that you may be an adult but have yet to join us grown-ups.

Now my time is up with you on this subject so you are clear to rant and rave to your heart's content.

[nmainguy]

i see straight men, friends and family, who attack problems vehemently and honestly, they are specifically honest with themselves. most of the gay men i've met were like some of the delusional contestants on american idol. any disagreement and they jump off the logic train. i found it very frustrating to communicate with people in the gay community on an objective level. one of the endearing things about haif is the amount of intelligent discussion from gay and straight participants.

and, i was unloading in this particular thread. actually, "I" avoid conflict at all costs and was, more likely......definitely, describing personal flaws that i felt were connected to my identity.

i see the sacrifices my dad and friends have made for their families, and i spent my twenties and thirties running around partying with anyone i could find who didn't want to grow up. the world has grown up around me and i've refused to accept many necessary facts of life. as i'm sure you can see from my earlier posts.

I'm not sure what the "gay community" is anymore but if you were a barfly you probably weren't coming into contact with guys like Puma and I.

I always like your honesty and never see it as "unloading" as such-more like a free-form train of thought.

BTW, raising your nephew is definatly accepting the facts of life.

[Jeebus]

Non-terrorist actually, but same difference I guess.

WTF? NO, the only acceptable answer is ANTI-terrorist. By denying that you are anti-terrorist but instead claiming to only be a "non-terrorist", you're leaving room that you have no objection to terrorists & terrorism - just that you are not an actual terrorist.

Everyone feel free to vehemently label me anti-terrorist, and anti-terrorism.

[musicman]

i see straight men, friends and family, who attack problems vehemently and honestly, they are specifically honest with themselves. most of the gay men i've met were like some of the delusional contestants on american idol. any disagreement and they jump off the logic train. i found it very frustrating to communicate with people in the gay community on an objective level. one of the endearing things about haif is the amount of intelligent discussion from gay and straight participants.

another very honest post.

I'm not sure what the "gay community" is anymore but if you were a barfly you probably weren't coming into contact with guys like Puma and I.

hmmm isn't puma the one who's into the american idols threads?

[webdude]

I don't get it. You understand my point but remain suspicious of a group of people whose individual actions have freed slaves and empowered those that don't match their own slim demographic group? Granted it hasn't been easy, but on the whole it seems like a pretty good track record of progress to me.

I could care less what their demographic composition is, so long as they are competent.

Then it seems that we're entirely on the same side. What annoys me is not the political process leading to equality, but the fraction of people that embrace this notion of martyrdom as a badge of honor, or those that put on pride parades when that is the antithesis of any notion of equality. There is nothing to be proud (or ashamed) of. They aren't special. Isn't that the point of equality?

The fact that you realize that it hasn't been easy shows that you do get it.

The progress made is nothing compare to the resistance dealt. If we pick and choose only the good stuff to see, then of course, there is nothing to be suspicious of.

But if look at the whole picture and history of control and marginalization, the suspicion is warranted.

And when we look at the now, with the unequal distribution of power, that suspicion increases. Sure only competent ppl should run the world, but the reality is only competent folks of a certain demographic is running this country. Why is that?

[nmainguy]

hmmm isn't puma the one who's into the american idols threads?

Why don't you just ask Puma if you're that interested...and feel free to leave me out of of your pointless, loaded questions.

[Montrose1100]

i see straight men, friends and family, who attack problems vehemently and honestly, they are specifically honest with themselves. most of the gay men i've met were like some of the delusional contestants on american idol. any disagreement and they jump off the logic train. i found it very frustrating to communicate with people in the gay community on an objective level. one of the endearing things about haif is the amount of intelligent discussion from gay and straight participants.

and, i was unloading in this particular thread. actually, "I" avoid conflict at all costs and was, more likely......definitely, describing personal flaws that i felt were connected to my identity.

i see the sacrifices my dad and friends have made for their families, and i spent my twenties and thirties running around partying with anyone i could find who didn't want to grow up. the world has grown up around me and i've refused to accept many necessary facts of life. as i'm sure you can see from my earlier posts.

I always love your posts bach, your a wonderful contributer to Haif. I'd go so far as to say just a wonderful person, but I wouldn't want to seem that I knew you on such a personal level.

[HtownWxBoy]

I didn't say that you edited it. I was referring to the photographer that created it.

I don't dislike them either. They just don't matter as a group.

So by your logic, I have a problem. I should be proud of my straightness, my maleness, and my whiteness. Perhaps I should organize a white pride parade through downtown Houston so that all who share my particular genetic similarities can join together in unity and make our voices heard! [/sarcasm]

Yes, you should be proud of who you are. If you want to organize a parade... go for it! :-) Parades are fun!

Now, you know where the straight white male group is coming from. You don't care about our "PRIDE", so why should I give a fat rat's behind about your "PRIDE" ? Tolerance is a two way street. I told Niche, that we COULD indeed organize such a march, but every liberal group out there would call it a KKK rally, just because of the "GROUP" involved. How biggoted is THAT ? Trust me, every straight white male in America is not a card carrying member, in fact, the KKK wouldn't even be invited to the party. White straight males kinda do have our own holiday, we just celebrated it a few days ago, and it was wonderful. For those still scratching their heads, it's St. Patty's Day.

You can have "Ebony" magazine, but God forbid you make "Alabaster".

You can have "Gay" pride, but if you have "Straight" pride, you are an insensitive bastard, who should be flogged, and quartered.

You can have a "Miss Black America Pageant", but be prepared for Al Sharpton to come to the "Miss White America Pageant", of course, he'll only be there to try and get phone numbers of contestants after his little camera opp. with Sheila Jackson Lee.

I think EVERYONE should be proud of who they are! If other people have a problem w/ it... fu%% them! :-D

Consider that gay folks are in the minority. Right off the bat, that would indicate to me that you probably shouldn't expect too many gays to hold political power and that gays will probably never hold a majority. That doesn't mean that you aren't represented or that you lack the power to vote. There are no Jim Crow laws for gays. Sufferage isn't the issue. Neither is turnout.

For that matter, the average household with a gay householder tends to earn more income than does a straight household. Screw the politicians; you guys should be proud of what you as individuals have made for yourselves and gracious to the extreme social conservatives that they're not allowing folks like yourselves to get married and subject yourself to a higher marginal rate of taxation! I wish I could get away with that, but evidently I as a straight male lack that power.

I for one am very proud for what myself and other gays have made for ourselves. As for marriage, there are many rights that come w/ marriage that gay people don't have since they were born gay and can't get married. Gay people just want equal rights, like all Americans are supposed to have.

[Pumapayam]

another very honest post.

hmmm isn't puma the one who's into the american idols threads?

I love the show, doesn't mean I act like some on the gay "women" that try-out.

WTF? NO, the only acceptable answer is ANTI-terrorist. By denying that you are anti-terrorist but instead claiming to only be a "non-terrorist", you're leaving room that you have no objection to terrorists & terrorism - just that you are not an actual terrorist.

Everyone feel free to vehemently label me anti-terrorist, and anti-terrorism.

George Bush foreign policies is a form of terrorism, but we have to unfortunately support his cause.

[Guest Marty]

What's the 20 on the freakazoid!

[KinkaidAlum]

This thread has made me think about a lot of things, and brought out some old feelings I've not had in quite a while. To be honest, I really don't know why or how I became blessed with a sexual orientation that has me attracted only to other men. But I don't consider it a sin to say I believe I was born this way, nor do I consider that to be the easy way out. Yes, I do believe that there is a good deal of scientific evidence that indicates that sexual orientation is not chosen. Whether that's the result of genes, something in the environment, or hormonal levels during pregnancy, or something entirely different, I don't know, but I also really don't care. The fact is I am who I am, and I spent a lot of my earlier life struggling not only to understand myself but also struggling to find happiness in being a person that everyone else around me seemed to think I should be. I don't believe that my sexual orientation is all that fluid or that it can be changed. Believe me, I tried. While many of my heterosexual peers were loving life during their childhood, teenage years, and early 20s, I was trying to appear happy on the outside while slowly dying of confusion, shame, and depression on the inside. It was only when I let go of all that, and started to embrace who I am, and learn to like myself as I am, that I started to find happiness. It took a long time, and a lot of counseling, for me to be comfortable in my own skin.

Now, as a guy in my early 30s, I'm very comfortable with who I am, and I am generally very happy. Forgive me if "taking the easy road" and believing that I was always gay (which I do... HTownWxBoy's posts earlier in this thread on that topic could have been written by myself) is wrong. But the fact is that accepting myself for who I am and believing that this is how I was created and who I was meant to be has given me a lot of peace that questioning my sexual orientation and fighting to conform to society's image of the ideal man could never have provided. Why should I question certain things if all I get as a result is depression and misery, coupled with thoughts of ending my own life? I'm sorry. I had enough of that during my first 25 years. I refuse to go back.

Love me or hate me, I am who I am. I'm a man, who is well aware of the fact that I have a penis, which is fully functional and just happens to like other men. I have my masculine traits, but I'm not the least bit ashamed to admit that I have my more feminine side as well. I enjoy going to an Astros game with some of my guy friends just as much as any heterosexual man with a wife and kids. Yet I also enjoy taking care of my home just as much as some of my very traditional heterosexual female friends. I do a great job at that traditional manly task of going out and having a career and earning a living, yet I also am told by my boyfriend that I'm a pretty darn good cook. At times I may be very "butch," and at other times my more fabulous side emerges. The fact is, I don't feel like I have to conform to anyone else's standards of masculinity to be loved or accepted. Being who I am, and doing what comes natural to me may be the easy way out, but it also has brought me the most happiness and success in my life. Just because I'll never have a wife and might never procreate doesn't mean I'm not a man who is mature and makes a contribution to our society. I may be gay and pretty darn happy about that, but I still have a successful career, comfortable home, great friends, someone special I really care about, and the time and resources to volunteer in the community in ways that do make this a better world.

This world takes all types, and I don't believe that there is only one way to be a man or a woman. Our world would probably be a lot happier place and much more peaceful if people would just learn to accept and embrace the differences that exist among us and stop trying to force those who are different in some way from the majority to be who they aren't.

Thank you for this post. I could easily just say "DITTO" because it fits me almost exactly.

I am gay. I am 36. I spent my adolescent years HATING myself. I knew I wasn't "right" and tried so damn hard to fit in but could never quite "pass." I turned to patterns of behavior that I do not regret nor deny. I learned a lot from my little rebellion (taking ecstasy and dancing at NRG when you were a Kinkaid junior in 1987 was kinda seen as out there) but it didn't make me happy either. In college, I almost died from a hepatitus A outbreak in the town. That changed everything. When I recovered I had to face a year of sobriety to clean up my liver damage. It was during that time that I did make the choice; the choice to be TRUE to who I was born to be. I didn't decide to be gay but I did decide to come out.

I came out with a bang. I told everyone. I even went so far as to do a Houston Post article about coming out with a full picture of me and my mother on the front of the life section. I joined PFLAG. I marched on D.C. for egual rights. I moved back to Houston and volunteered for HATCH (gay teen support group). I spoke at colleges, high schools, church groups, and more as part of the PFLAG speaker's bureau. I received my MSW from UH and was all set to take a job at the Montrose Counseling Clinic to run their newly formed same-sex domestic violence coordinator position. Then, I had another epiphany. I realized that I was tired.

After all of those years of stuggle and a very public fight for acceptance, I realized I didn't really care. I had my family. The few years of being open and honest with myself had created much more postive and healthy relationships between myself and my mother, father, 3 sisters, and 2 brothers. I even came out to my grandparents who told me that when you live to be their age, you don't sweat the small stuff like that and that they loved me no differenly now than before. I also had an incredible group of friends who loved me. It was then that I found peace.

I haven't thought about questions like these since that time. For the past 10 years or so, I've just simply lived. I do what I love to do (run a small business that is creative, volunteer at the local public school, follow college sports, play trivia night on wednesdays at the local Irish pub and down a few pints with my partner and a small group of friends (gay couple, straight asian woman, straight black woman, and straight white guy), and travel when I get the chance). I've come to realize that it isn't my jop to decide these great questions. I need to just live. Be a good person. Know the difference between right and wrong and try and do the right thing. I know I still make major mistakes and have some flaws (I am sure Parrothead thinks I've got BIG ones ) but that is where I am today.

So fine, some quacks want to find a genetic fix for me. Well, good on them. I hope they not only break the code but that they also find a pill to cure all of us of our perceived handicap. When they offer it to me, I will politely say, "no thank you."

[HtownWxBoy]

So fine, some quacks want to find a genetic fix for me. Well, good on them. I hope they not only break the code but that they also find a pill to cure all of us of our perceived handicap. When they offer it to me, I will politely say, "no thank you."

Amen

[musicman]

Why don't you just ask Puma if you're that interested...and feel free to leave me out of of your pointless, loaded questions.

to me it's called humor.

[musicman]

After all of those years of stuggle and a very public fight for acceptance, I realized I didn't really care. I had my family. The few years of being open and honest with myself had created much more postive and healthy relationships between myself and my mother, father, 3 sisters, and 2 brothers. I even came out to my grandparents who told me that when you live to be their age, you don't sweat the small stuff like that and that they loved me no differenly now than before. I also had an incredible group of friends who loved me. It was then that I found peace. you."

i think you're farther along than most. i'm older but tried to do too much when i was younger and long term, that is just not good. causes way too much stress you need to do what makes you happy and not worry about the rest of the world. you will definitely make a difference to others if you've found peace yourself.

gay/straight/or whatever many people struggle from this and have miserable lives as a result. a coworker came in my office in tears because she couldn't find a boyfriend and her other friends have. i told her you can't be happy with someone until you're happy with yourself first. while putting your issues "behind" you isn't easy, it sure does make for a better life.

[TheNiche]

Well that's consistant with your posting history: people don't matter. But in the REAL world which you seem to have a hard time grasping, people do care and people are special. It says something about YOU when you say things like that; when you express a complete disregard of human life as you are wont to do. It says you are socialy cripple to the extent you can't even recognize the value of a person on so many levels

What is it that you don't seem to get? I've said before that we are all alike (i.e. not special) on account of that we are all unique. Yes, it is a paradox of a sort, but that does not diminish its truthfulness. Pride is a delusion for most, a crutch for some. The sooner that it can be defeated, the sooner individuals can treat one another with basic and equal respect. Isn't that what you want???

^The above has nothing to do with the concept of sanctity of life that you seemed to associate my statements with...although you are accidentally correct that I do question that sanctity. Does it make me less human that I would challenge those notions that most people believe are set in stone? Does it make me despicable because I am willing and able to think of things that would make you uncomfortable? Or does it mean that I must socially cripple myself in any relationships with emotionally insecure people? And if I don't get along very with such people, should I care? I think not. They can be who they are; I shall be me.

[TJones]

Puma, I have been meaning to ask you if your were Muslim. If you are Muslim, what happens to men in your country of origin who are "outed" ?

[TheNiche]

And when we look at the now, with the unequal distribution of power, that suspicion increases. Sure only competent ppl should run the world, but the reality is only competent folks of a certain demographic is running this country. Why is that?

Assume, for example that you've got a poly-ethnic society where one group comprises a majority of voters. Certain other groups could turn the majority into a pluralistic majority, but don't tend to have a great deal of turnout at the polls because they feel disenfranchised even though they aren't...a problem that almost seems to trace to some of their own leaders for whatever reason. Poor people of every ethnicity tend to vote less. The politicians that are most likely to succeed (holding all other variables constant) are the ones that are independently wealthy, but because wealth can be passed from generation to generation, both in the form of childhood upbringing and also in inheritances, there is systematic financial bias that goes back several generations. In the grand scheme of things, it is bad because big change can be slow to come; alternatively, it can be good because big changes can result in big consequences, and a wasteful and imperfect representative democracy is still preferable to tyranny.

Assume that every demographic segment is ideologically diverse. Also assume that every segment has a sizable share of stupid or ignorant people. Assume that such people are more likely to vote for a politician that they can merely relate to because they don't actually have a clue how to assess policy issues. Odds are that they'll vote for someone that looks and sounds like themselves. You see it in local politics all the time. It is most observable with small districts.

So this process is repeated in each congressional district, and it should come as little surprise that there is demographic imbalance. Not to change the subject or anything, but my understanding is that Iraq has had some issues with trying to address this same kind of problem. This is just one of those issues that is really difficult to deal with when there are poly-ethnic districts. Considering the turmoil that the 3/5 Compromise caused back in our own constitutional history, can you imagine what would've become of us if we had had so many partisan ethnicities and voting blocks back in that era. I would submit to you that the country probably would've failed and been back under British control at most by 1813.

[RedScare]

Your tortured logic is.....well.....torture.

[TheNiche]

Your tortured logic is.....well.....torture.

Do explain.

[nmainguy]

Thank you for this post. I could easily just say "DITTO" because it fits me almost exactly.

Great post, kink. I have known alot of gay men and women who have had a similar experience and have come out stronger on the other end. I suppose I was one of the lucky ones because of my parents. I think I was about 15 when I came out to them and they were always supportive. I think because of them, my siblings and close and enduring friendships, I avoided the bar scene and some of the more negative aspects that can accompany that scene. I suppose my only gripe is my partner and I remain second class citizens under the law. That some translate that gripe into the tiered old "All you people want is special rights!! You're not special!!" just shows how uninformed many people still are when it comes down to what EQUAL-as opposed to special-rights really means.

[dbigtex56]

What is it that you don't seem to get? I've said before that we are all alike (i.e. not special) on account of that we are all unique. Yes, it is a paradox of a sort, but that does not diminish its truthfulness. Pride is a delusion for most, a crutch for some. The sooner that it can be defeated, the sooner individuals can treat one another with basic and equal respect. Isn't that what you want???

^The above has nothing to do with the concept of sanctity of life that you seemed to associate my statements with...although you are accidentally correct that I do question that sanctity. Does it make me less human that I would challenge those notions that most people believe are set in stone? Does it make me despicable because I am willing and able to think of things that would make you uncomfortable? Or does it mean that I must socially cripple myself in any relationships with emotionally insecure people? And if I don't get along very with such people, should I care? I think not. They can be who they are; I shall be me.

Look at it this way. Suppose some other group - say, pedants - was openly despised by society. Laws were passed against pedantry. Pedants could only associate in seedy bars, which were regularly raided by corrupt policemen. Pedants could lose their jobs if they were found out. Sure, a lot of people might even be pedant-curious (but would never dare say so in public.)

But what's so wrong with being a pedant? Why not fight back against those who oppress pedants, and take pride in standing up for ones self, despite the pressures to feel only shame?

[nmainguy]

^{EQUAL EMPLOYMENT RIGHTS OPPORTUNITY FOR PEDANTS!}

[RedScare]

Look at it this way. Suppose some other group - say, pedants - was openly despised by society. Laws were passed against pedantry. Pedants could only associate in seedy bars, which were regularly raided by corrupt policemen. Pedants could lose their jobs if they were found out. Sure, a lot of people might even be pedant-curious (but would never dare say so in public.)

But what's so wrong with being a pedant? Why not fight back against those who oppress pedants, and take pride in standing up for ones self, despite the pressures to feel only shame?

To be sure, the pedant would not "fight back", as this suggests purposeful violent conflict. More properly, the pedant might vigorously advance his cause through debate, demonstration and persuasion....unless of course, said pedant were also a thug, in which case he would probably fight back.

[Montrose1100]

I salute the Niche for influencing me more then any other member on this board.

[musicman]

....unless of course, said pedant were also a thug, in which case he would probably fight back.

did someone say thug?

[westguy]

Oh lordy. Marty wins hands-down for the most loaded avatar here.

[KinkaidAlum]

Oh lordy. Marty wins hands-down for the most loaded avatar here.

I admit that I was amused to see that someone with a Confederate Flag avatar was so easily offended by the Hungarian Olympic Swim Team photo.

[TheNiche]

Look at it this way. Suppose some other group - say, pedants - was openly despised by society. Laws were passed against pedantry. Pedants could only associate in seedy bars, which were regularly raided by corrupt policemen. Pedants could lose their jobs if they were found out. Sure, a lot of people might even be pedant-curious (but would never dare say so in public.)

Weak analogy. Absurd.

But what's so wrong with being a pedant? Why not fight back against those who oppress pedants, and take pride in standing up for ones self, despite the pressures to feel only shame?

Nothing. I would voice my concerns. It is what I do. People don't have to listen. People don't have to respond. If I lost my job (before I was able to quit), I'd go find another; it isn't that small of a world, after all. Why would I want to work for such a closed-minded individual anyway?

Pride would be counterproductive. Shame would be unnecessary.

To be sure, the pedant would not "fight back", as this suggests purposeful violent conflict. More properly, the pedant might vigorously advance his cause through debate, demonstration and persuasion....unless of course, said pedant were also a thug, in which case he would probably fight back.

I'd get out of the country. That's the path of least resistance as far as I'm concerned.

I salute the Niche for influencing me more then any other member on this board.

A positive influence, I hope.