scarface Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Now we all know that Houston and Dallas are each supposed to be getting new dowtown jewels. Dallas Victory Project and Houston's still hoping to breaking ground w/ the Houston Pavilions Project in the upcoming months (fingers crossed!)Dallas is seeing a surge of excitement with the development of the Victory Center with the Victory Hotel to rise along with the retail that's gonnna occur in that little section where Victory Plaza will be. Houston's Pavilion Project is something that is much needed downtown which could change the site of downtown Houston forever. The Houston Pavilions would anchor Main Street Square and connect to the Houston Center and Hilton America's throughout to theToyota center. It will also be a short walk away from the Park Tower and the new downtown park (that will have 2 restaurants). It is also supposed to have high rise condo's rise above the facility. Now please note, as we're comparing these two developments, i'm not just talking comparing Dallas Victory development against Houston Pavilions project alone. This includes everything close in proximity to the Pavilions such as: The Park Tower, Discovery Green, Hilton Americas, GRB, Toyota Center, and etc. So this is comparing Dallas Victory and Houston Pavilions and all SURROUNDING DEVELOPMENTEven though HP may not be quite as fancy as Dallas's Victory (seeing that Dallas is getting large plasma screens and all). the developments are basically similar and i think they will pretty much serve the same purpose to each of the downtowns. What do you all think? Which one will be hotter and have the most impact or influence on downtown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesternGulf Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Uhmmm Victory. Since this is a Houston site, probably not the best place to put it for an honest answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I don't see Victory helping Dallas Downtown at all, since it is half a mile OUTSIDE of Downtown, on the other side of Will Rogers Expwy. Once the psychological barrier of Harry Hines is broken, it will help Uptown Dallas. In fact, Harry Hines may already be a non-event for Uptown access, although I read on the Dallas board that it is still a barrier...a Dallas poster will have to help out here.But, Downtown? No, too many barriers to consider it part of Downtown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarface Posted November 23, 2005 Author Share Posted November 23, 2005 Uhmmm Victory. Since this is a Houston site, probably not the best place to put it for an honest answer.then could you do me a favor? Could you or some other SSC member start the same thread at skyscrapercity or skyscraperpage? I've been trying to register, but for some reasonm they won't accept my e-mail adress.But i don't see the members on this site as being biased. Many members here tell it like it is. If there's something that they don't like about a project that Houston's doing, they'll speak on it. That's just been my observation by reading some of the members posts on various threads. But you may have a point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citykid09 Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I like Victory better. Because of the all of the large flashy signs/Video screens. Also I like that they will incorporate the media into the project by have a talk show and a news show taped there where the audience can look at the show live and be apart of the show. I like the Houston Pavilions also. Its better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesternGulf Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 then could you do me a favor? Could you or some other SSC member start the same thread at skyscrapercity or skyscraperpage? I've been trying to register, but for some reasonm they won't accept my e-mail adress.But i don't see the members on this site as being biased. Many members here tell it like it is. If there's something that they don't like about a project that Houston's doing, they'll speak on it. That's just been my observation by reading some of the members posts on various threads. But you may have a point!No offense, I wouldn't mind making this thread, but these projects are nothing alike. Victory is like multiple Houston Pavilions in a larger area. Its like one mixed use project versus multiple. Each property at Victory will probably have its own website while Houston Pavilions is one. Get my drift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallasboi Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 While I am a fan of the Houston Pavillions project,I thinkI'm gonna have to agree with you westgulf. I think Victory park was don on a larger scale and some of the retail tenants lined up for victory simply can't be mactched by most cities.The venues that will be incorporated into Victory will be Unique to the whole Southern reigon of the United states and I simply don't think the Pavillinos can compare.But of coures there are a ton of people who would disagree because it's a Dallas Project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstngoal Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 While I am a fan of the Houston Pavillions project,I thinkI'm gonna have to agree with you westgulf. I think Victory park was don on a larger scale and some of the retail tenants lined up for victory simply can't be mactched by most cities.The venues that will be incorporated into Victory will be Unique to the whole Southern reigon of the United states and I simply don't think the Pavillinos can compare.But of coures there are a ton of people who would disagree because it's a Dallas Project. No, there are not a ton of people who would disagree simply because its a Dallas project. Please don't start that. The Victory project is better... its much larger in scale, has better financial backing, and represents a great textbook example of new multi-use development in an American city. While I am hopeful that Pavilions will work, it is just a slightly different variation of what has already been done in many other places... nothing groundbreaking or innovative. It will be interesting to see how each project is embraced (or not). And, again, lets not get on the Dallas vs. Houston issue... please keep comments directly related to a comparison of the two projects. Thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmainguy Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 I went to Victory's website http://www.victorydallas.com/index_flash.html Very impressive! However, I don't think the 2 developement-Pavilions and Victory are comparable. The Pavilions will actually be in downtown Houston. Victory appears to be just outside downtown Dallas. The Pavilions will be on 3 blocks; Victory appears much more vast-if they actually build it all. Does anyone know what actually has been built? Their website doesn't really indicate anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallasboi Posted November 23, 2005 Share Posted November 23, 2005 Well........As for being totally completed I can only say the AA Center but already under construction we have : the W Hotel & residences -75% complete,Victory Plaza-40% Complete ,The Terrace Condos -60% Complete, The Cirque Condo Tower -Just Broke Ground. And all of that is Just the Second Phase.We still Have Two more Phases. Still have more clubs, bars,shops,Hotels and Resturaunts to add in Phase 3 & 4. I don't see Victory helping Dallas Downtown at all, since it is half a mile OUTSIDE of Downtown, on the other side of Will Rogers Expwy. Once the psychological barrier of Harry Hines is broken, it will help Uptown Dallas. In fact, Harry Hines may already be a non-event for Uptown access, although I read on the Dallas board that it is still a barrier...a Dallas poster will have to help out here.But, Downtown? No, too many barriers to consider it part of Downtown. Victory is a few feet from downtown, u could acually walk downtown from victory. And We don't need Victory to help downtown. Trust me there are enough thigs happening downtown for downtown to hold its own.Victory is simply a new Neigborhood that will be a 24 hour destination to add on top of all of the CBD success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasStar Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Can't really vote since I don't know anything about Houston Pavilions. Can someone post some pics or links so we can compare the elements of each project? Some Victory Dallas images: The W Hotel and Residences Victory Plaza One Victory Tower (45-story mixed use) The Cirque (28-story Apt bldg) This pano shows Victory's close proximity to Downtown Dallas Ninjatune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YakuzaIce Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Is victory all by one company, or is it several working on single projects that tie into the rest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ V Lawrence Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 I see Pavillions making the bigger impact, simply because I believe Houston Pavillions has a better chance at spurting more development in that area of downtown around the Pavillions. Not just in the Pavillions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxDave Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 I really don't know much about the Pavilions project, except where it is supposed to be; but in general, it sounds like a great "promised" urban center project from which no one has seen any results. If it is developed as promised; it should strongly anchor that "mid-Main Street"/ METRO line corridor. I would love to see that happen downtown.However to compare that to Dallas' Victory Park project is a poor comparison - by any means - for the following reasons:- Dallas Victory Park covers a much larger area than the Houston Pavilions plan.- The "Pavilions" concept is a concept that has been used in several other cities - not really unique to Houston; whereas the Victory Park project is unique in Dallas.- Victory Park is on the fringe of downtown vs. Pavilions in the heart of downtown - each will have a different result. Both cities should have both projects going on: Houston needs a "Victory Park" and Dallas needs a "Pavilions" type project- Victory Park has a number of features already under construction/near completion - many of which would likely individually eclipse the Pavilions project on their own... The W, Cirque, Terrace, the House by Stark, etc...All in all, I am excited to see the Pavilions project happen for that area of downtown Houston, but I think it is very unrealistic to compare it to the Victory Park development in Dallas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 I agree with TxDave. These two projects bear little or no resemblance to each other in scale or purpose. Houston's proposed Hardy Yards development might have been somewhat similar, though I hear it may no longer be going forward as planned. Pavillions is more of a downtown Galleria...a 3 block shopping mall. The impact will probably be greater, as stated, but not the size.Victory is more akin to Atlanta Station...a reclamation of an unusable "brownfield" that was a blight on the city and turning it into a destination. $100 million was spent just to be able to use the land again, a truly impressive feat. Once all four phases are complete, Victory will be an impressive, and expensive, piece of real estate, one that all cities with polluted industrial sites will look at for inspiration.Pavillions will also reclaim an old, dirty underused part of downtown Houston and make it vibrant. But, where Victory is more akin to plastic surgery, Pavillions is like an extreme makeover...both look nice when finished, but one is far more extreme and expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamtagon Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 The rennovation of the Merchantile block seems like a more balanced comparison to the Pavilions. Both should really add to the city feel.I think Victory, a single developer master plan, promises to help overcome the barrior Woodall Rogers freeway presents between Uptown and downtown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 All I can say is, thank God this hasn't ended up ina flame war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonDFW Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 But, Downtown? No, too many barriers to consider it part of Downtown.I don't know enough about the Pavilions to dare vote, but I've walked many times from the West End in downtown Dallas to Victory and its a very short walk. Victory is about a block from the restaurants that are across Woodall Rogers from the West End. I *think* "The House" is going to be like 400' from the freeway which some consider the border of downtown. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slfunk Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 Is victory all by one company, or is it several working on single projects that tie into the rest?Hillwood is the lead developer of the project, but other developers are developing the individual buildings. Victory is an extension of downtown. Already people walk from West End to the Hooters and Dick's Last Resort. Until the massive amounts of parking is built in future developments, people will have to continue parking in the CBD to get to all the new retail to avoid paying high parking rates in the development. Future development includes a new museum for Natural History (currently housed in Fair Park). This will be designed by Frank Gehry and located at Ross and I-35. People will have to park by the Dallas Aquarium or around the westend for the new Museum. The only reason this land was not deveoloped early was due to the brownfield it previously was. The land was the dumping ground for gas laterns, old horse drawn buggies, they found a locamotive turntable, Ford Model T, etc. etc. It wasn't until a massive clean up of almost 400 million dollars that this land could be developed. That is when you saw the AAC built. The connection between downtown (West End) is not only immediately adjacent, but is shorter and much more straight forward then any approach from Uptown. This coming from a resident of uptown for the past 3 yrs. This is an exciting project for Dallas and downtown, and you are correct that it is not in the CBD. The CBD will have its own "mini" Victory project by Forest City. This will be the rehab of the Mercantile project, Atmos complex and Forest City's vision to much much more in the area from Mercantile building to the Farmer's Market. Most of this development is encompasses rehab of existing buildings and reshaping this corner of downtown.I don't know anything about Houston Pavilions. Would love to see some pics and projected dates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallasite Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 I agree with most of the above comments. However, I think that Victory will extend DTD when completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 Hillwood is the lead developer of the project, but other developers are developing the individual buildings. Victory is an extension of downtown. Already people walk from West End to the Hooters and Dick's Last Resort. Until the massive amounts of parking is built in future developments, people will have to continue parking in the CBD to get to all the new retail to avoid paying high parking rates in the development. Future development includes a new museum for Natural History (currently housed in Fair Park). This will be designed by Frank Gehry and located at Ross and I-35. People will have to park by the Dallas Aquarium or around the westend for the new Museum. The only reason this land was not deveoloped early was due to the brownfield it previously was. The land was the dumping ground for gas laterns, old horse drawn buggies, they found a locamotive turntable, Ford Model T, etc. etc. It wasn't until a massive clean up of almost 400 million dollars that this land could be developed. That is when you saw the AAC built. The connection between downtown (West End) is not only immediately adjacent, but is shorter and much more straight forward then any approach from Uptown. This coming from a resident of uptown for the past 3 yrs. This is an exciting project for Dallas and downtown, and you are correct that it is not in the CBD. The CBD will have its own "mini" Victory project by Forest City. This will be the rehab of the Mercantile project, Atmos complex and Forest City's vision to much much more in the area from Mercantile building to the Farmer's Market. Most of this development is encompasses rehab of existing buildings and reshaping this corner of downtown.I don't know anything about Houston Pavilions. Would love to see some pics and projected dates.Are Hooter's and Dick's in the Victory development? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallasboi Posted November 29, 2005 Share Posted November 29, 2005 No....they are at the very southern end of the development.However,when the project is complete,I believe people will soon associate them with Victory Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasStar Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 Victory construction progress photos from 12/3/2005 The Terrace, Victory Park, and the W Hotel and Residences Victory Plaza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tierwestah Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 wow! this project is on crack! It's taking off quite fast. I hate to say it but Dallas is leaving Houston behind by miles in terms of projects and progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallasite Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 ^It is all relative bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidtownCoog Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 Tierwestah, I think you need to get out more.Houston has all this, too. If anything, Dallas is catching up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmainguy Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 I hate to say it but Dallas is leaving Houston behind by miles in terms of projects and progress. If you hate to say it, why do you? Anyway, even if that were the case-which it's not-who cares? There's enough projects and progress to go around. This Dallas [Mine is bigger than yours!] vs. Houston mentality has become so tiersome. Makes me wanna nap...YAWN.... ZZZZZZZZZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tierwestah Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Anyway, even if that were the case-which it's not-who cares?Obviously anyone who posts regularly on this forum such as yourself are the people who care! Members on this forum are always talking about progress that other cities are making and how Houston is behind progessively, and is not forward thinking enough! Topics like this frequent the forum quite often!Seriously partna! You need to get a life and get off my case! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesternGulf Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 If I am not mistaken this is why no one wanted to post on the TMC dvelopment thread that was created and you wondered why no one was responding. Just some food for thought. We all know how these threads end up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tierwestah Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 If I am not mistaken this is why no one wanted to post on the TMC dvelopment thread that was created and you wondered why no one was responding. Just some food for thought. We all know how these threads end up.Hey man. You need to take a chill pill. I get tired of your comments because it seems like you're always trying to talk down on someone when they have an opinion! Did i start this thread? Plus, I didn't give a rat's a$$ if no one responded to that thread i started anyway. But for your info, there were replies.Your comments that you've made towards me and several other members on this forum have made me lose alot of respect that i had for you. I was a big fan of your portfolios on Houston on skyscrapercity but as far as i'm concerned, it'll be a cold day in hell before i view one of your threads again. So some food for thought, quit trying to play like you're Mr. Know-It All. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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