RedScare Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Where is Pavilions? Have they broken ground? Have they finalized the design? Or are we still comparing steel and concrete to smoke?No negativity intended, mind you. This could be a great project for Houston. Just curious. Still a rendering. Nope. Don't know. Yup. No negativity taken. Groundbreaking is scheduled for "any day now". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasStar Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 ^ Thanks, RedScare.Hopefully it gets off the ground soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 ^ Thanks, RedScare.Hopefully it gets off the ground soon.What ground-breakings are scheduled in the coming weeks in Victory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasStar Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 What ground-breakings are scheduled in the coming weeks in Victory? From Steve Brown's Dallas Morning News Real Estate Column, Sept 28th, 2006: "Nearby at the Victory complex, developers Hillwood and Hines are preparing to break ground on the 400,000-square-foot One Victory Park office tower. The building has drawn interest from downtown law firms and financial companies, real estate brokers say." The House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tierwestah Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Since this was intended as a Houston Pavilions/Dallas Victory comparison thread it seems the best place to ask one question that has occurred to me:While Victory is surging forward with newly-completed components, climbing tower cranes, and more ground breakings in coming weeks. Where is Pavilions? Have they broken ground? Have they finalized the design? Or are we still comparing steel and concrete to smoke? No negativity intended, mind you. This could be a great project for Houston. Just curious. TexasStar, an answer to your question. It's called SLOW Houston. If there was a short yellow bus, Houston would be the first passenger. It's not bad enough that Houston was one of the last cities to catch on to the concept of urban renewal, but the fact is that alot of Houston's plans for mixed use still remain on paper. Our midtown continues to build sprawling CVS pharamacies and large strip centers. So, continue to see Houston to be one of those cities that remains behind the 8 ball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonfella Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Yeah, we are kind of slow in Houston. We just happen to be Texas' largest city and the nation's fourth city. But in all fairness, Dallas has dropped from 7th to 9th. Give 'em a high five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethanra Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 TexasStar, an answer to your question. It's called SLOW Houston. If there was a short yellow bus, Houston would be the first passenger. It's not bad enough that Houston was one of the last cities to catch on to the concept of urban renewal, but the fact is that alot of Houston's plans for mixed use still remain on paper. Our midtown continues to build sprawling CVS pharamacies and large strip centers. So, continue to see Houston to be one of those cities that remains behind the 8 ball Slow Houston? The HP has been on the boards for less then 3 years, the Dallas project has been on the boards for over a decade. As far as urban renewal DT Houston is light years ahead of DT Dallas. Midtown Dallas is 5 square miles and the only urban hot area in the Big D. Houston has twice as many construction projects going on right now, with several to break ground before the end of the year. End of rant....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonfella Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Slow Houston? The HP has been on the boards for less then 3 years, the Dallas project has been on the boards for over a decade. As far as urban renewal DT Houston is light years ahead of DT Dallas. Midtown Dallas is 5 square miles and the only urban hot area in the Big D. Houston has twice as many construction projects going on right now, with several to break ground before the end of the year. End of rant....... Thanks E This needed to be said. H-town is the big one. Dallas has the catching up to do. Uptown Houston is the nation's 14th largest "downtown" if you will. Downtown Houston is the 3rd largest. Therefore, we rule. OK, the Cowboys probably will beat the Texans into pulp; but if that doesn't happen, oh my, we will have even more bragging rights. This is good natured ribbing only. Dallas and Houston are fab places that no one outside Texas understands. But we understand each other. Yeah Texas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyboy Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Midtown Dallas is 5 square miles and the only urban hot area in the Big D.Uptown is the only urban hot area of Dallas?? Granted you don't live here...but have you seen what has happend to Oaklawn. Not to mention the new hot areas, like Cedars and Bishop Arts in Oakcliff (a large new mixed used development was just announced to complement the orginal. Oakcliff (north) is experiencing a huge renaissance itself. Look across the freeway from Northpark, a massive mixed used development is underway that will be equal to Northpark in size. It will not only contain retailers like a flagship Whole Foods store and H&M, but will also have highrise office, condos and a hotel. Mockingbird Station is preparing to expand into its parking lots and developers are tearing out apartment complexes around the Galleria for mixed use developments some of which is near completion. Lofts, townhomes and new retail is going up all around lower Greenville and east Dallas. In the Hospital District near Parkland, a developer (Cityville) is near completion of the first phase of a massive mixed use development. And other's are scrambling to buy tracts in the areas ( I have a friend in the area and all three apartments complexes in his neighborhood have been purchased for teardown.) And north of that, plans have been announced on NW Highway near Bachman Lake to transform a shopping area there into a substaintial mixed used development that will hopefully jumpstart more in the area. And westward lots of new urban housing has been announced in the Design District. Not to mention, downtown is one big constuction zone. I love Houston and what's going on there, but to say that Uptown is the only hot area of Dallas is simply untrue..far from it. And I'm sure I'm leaving things out, but this was all from the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 I love Houston and what's going on there, but to say that Uptown is the only hot area of Dallas is simply untrue..far from it. And I'm sure I'm leaving things out, but this was all from the top of my head.Sounds like someone has a pretty loose definition of the word "urban". In fact, most people on this forum do. Calling Oak Cliff "urban" is like calling the Houston Heights "urban". Now, if you want to go with "trendy", that may be closer to the truth. But, few of the places you described would fit the definition of "urban". Just as those who like to call Woodlands Market Street "urban" have been hitting the egg nog a little too early this year, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyboy Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Sounds like someone has a pretty loose definition of the word "urban". In fact, most people on this forum do. Calling Oak Cliff "urban" is like calling the Houston Heights "urban". Now, if you want to go with "trendy", that may be closer to the truth. But, few of the places you described would fit the definition of "urban". Just as those who like to call Woodlands Market Street "urban" have been hitting the egg nog a little too early this year, too.You're very correct. I use the definition of urban loosely because this is Texas. Cities here saw major growth (sprawl) after ameria fell in love with cars and shopping malls. Therfore what is considered urban here is much different than what I saw when my family lived in New York and Boston. Most of what is considered urban here must be built from the ground up, and even when urban developments are built here they still consider the fact that many people are going to drive there, and thus make adjustments for cars. Someone on another forum referred to this as faux urban. These developments are not a bad thing at all, and they defenitely beat the alternative..more tract housing, parking lots,and strip malls. So if I use urban loosely it's just because the infrastructure here is much different than the cities developers try to immulate. Texas isn't Chicago and will never look like it. I just see as a different kind of "unbanity" here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoutoDal Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Uptown is the only urban hot area of Dallas?? Granted you don't live here...but have you seen what has happend to Oaklawn. Not to mention the new hot areas, like Cedars and Bishop Arts in Oakcliff (a large new mixed used development was just announced to complement the orginal. Oakcliff (north) is experiencing a huge renaissance itself. Look across the freeway from Northpark, a massive mixed used development is underway that will be equal to Northpark in size. It will not only contain retailers like a flagship Whole Foods store and H&M, but will also have highrise office, condos and a hotel. Mockingbird Station is preparing to expand into its parking lots and developers are tearing out apartment complexes around the Galleria for mixed use developments some of which is near completion. Lofts, townhomes and new retail is going up all around lower Greenville and east Dallas. In the Hospital District near Parkland, a developer (Cityville) is near completion of the first phase of a massive mixed use development. And other's are scrambling to buy tracts in the areas ( I have a friend in the area and all three apartments complexes in his neighborhood have been purchased for teardown.) And north of that, plans have been announced on NW Highway near Bachman Lake to transform a shopping area there into a substaintial mixed used development that will hopefully jumpstart more in the area. And westward lots of new urban housing has been announced in the Design District. Not to mention, downtown is one big constuction zone. I love Houston and what's going on there, but to say that Uptown is the only hot area of Dallas is simply untrue..far from it. And I'm sure I'm leaving things out, but this was all from the top of my head.You left out Las Colinas and Addison, they are very Urban, Addison is like having another Uptown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 So if I use urban loosely it's just because the infrastructure here is much different than the cities developers try to immulate. ...and, therefore, it is not urban. You left out Las Colinas and Addison... I rest my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallasboi Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 I have a question for REDSCARE.............If all of this stuff was planned for Houston instead How would you convince the whole wide world that Houston is the most urban because I'm almost positive that if this was in Houston ,Houston would suddenly become the most urban city on the planet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 I have a question for REDSCARE.............If all of this stuff was planned for Houston instead How would you convince the whole wide world that Houston is the most urban because I'm almost positive that if this was in Houston ,Houston would suddenly become the most urban city on the planet I refer you to my post #160. I believe my opinion about calling Houston projects "urban" is covered there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyboy Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 You guys are being silly. So what Houston and Dallas should do to be what you consider "urban" is rip out all of their very surburban neighborhoods and replace them all with brownstones and townhomes, and every strip shopping and parking lots should be replaced with pedestrian friendly mix-use structures. And every wide sidewalkless street should be narrowed and made pedestrian friendly and have quaint neighborhood resturants and retail on both sides. I would love if that would happen, but I know it's not. You have what you have and you have to deal with it. Dallas, Houston, Austin , Fort Worth , San Antonion, etc are all surburban in design...and probally always ,for the most part, will be. But your attempts at building urban structures, as artificial as they may be (I've seen midtown..its developments are every bit as "urban" as those in uptown dallas) beat more of the same. Simple as that. Also my use of "urban" was a quote from one of your own. I only used urban when quoting him and called the projects I mentioned, except one that only included housing, "mixed use". Believe me, I know what truly urban is....no place in Texas is there. I don't feel as you do that people on this forum necessarily misuse the term urban. Urban Texas is not ever going to look or feel like urban New York..just as urban London looks and feels nothing like urban Chicago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallasboi Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Yeah, we are kind of slow in Houston. We just happen to be Texas' largest city and the nation's fourth city. But in all fairness, Dallas has dropped from 7th to 9th. Give 'em a high five. And how is this even important Mr. Cheerleader who probably have never left Houston's massive city limits a day in his life? Yes...Houston is the fourth largest Horray Horray Horray.And with That being said Houston SEEMS to be the last to do anything so every thing tends to appear rushed and not planned very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 You guys are being silly. So what Houston and Dallas should do to be what you consider "urban" is rip out all of their very surburban neighborhoods and replace them all with brownstones and townhomes, and every strip shopping and parking lots should be replaced with pedestrian friendly mix-use structures. And every wide sidewalkless street should be narrowed and made pedestrian friendly and have quaint neighborhood resturants and retail on both sides. I would love if that would happen, but I know it's not. You have what you have and you have to deal with it. Dallas, Houston, Austin , Fort Worth , San Antonion, etc are all surburban in design...and probally always ,for the most part, will be. But your attempts at building urban structures, as artificial as they may be (I've seen midtown..its developments are every bit as "urban" as those in uptown dallas) beat more of the same. Simple as that. Also my use of "urban" was a quote from one of your own. Believe me, I know what truly urban is....no place in Texas is there. I don't feel as you do that people on this forum necessarily misuse the term urban. Urban Texas is not ever going to look or feel like urban New York..just as urban London looks and feels nothing like urban Chicago.I am not suggesting that Houston and Dallas do anything. They are what they are. I am not embarrassed by the car-based layout of post WWII cities. I do not apologize for it. I also do not call them what they are not. And, the fact is, cities with densities of 3,500 are not "urban", in the historical sense of the word.I recognize that it is trendy to throw the word around. I realize that many citizens of Southern and Western cities itch to use the term to describe their hometowns in an attempt to be considered on par with the "big boys" of Chicago and New York. But, the fact is, these cities hardly existed when those Northern and Midwestern cities were in their heyday. They were built to accomodate life in the 1800s. Southern cities were built to accomodate life in the 1950s. That is a huge difference.Even NEW "urban" developments in southern cities are designed this way. Even though Victory is supposed to be walkable, the W Hotel sits atop a huge parking garage. The reason? Because virtually everyone going to the hotel will drive their very expensive cars there. That is nothing to be ashamed of. It is reality in 2006. And, it is not just in Dallas. The new downtown apartment building in Houston will sit atop an identical parking garage.So, if it makes you feel trendy and hip to call these areas "urban", good for you. I do not call them what they clearly are not. And, if I want to call these developments "poser urban", I believe that is my right. If that causes dallasboy's head to explode, so much the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallasboi Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 In your dreams REDSCARE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 And how is this even important Mr. Cheerleader who probably have never left Houston's massive city limits a day in his life? Yes...Houston is the fourth largest Horray Horray Horray.And with That being said Houston SEEMS to be the last to do anything so every thing tends to appear rushed and not planned very well. May I ask your age? I can make an assumption based on your subject/verb agreement and spelling but it sure would answer a few questions in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyboy Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Did anyone notice that Redscare pretty much paraphrased what I said. And why would anyone feel embarrased or need to apologize for Houston's layout. I don't think anyone asked or expects you to do either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
largeTEXAS Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Just remember, Los Angeles is the densest North American city...way beyond NY or Chicago! Not many even refer to it as "urban." The trendy urban seems to describe a very nostalgic, 19th century-looking building made of brick. Plus, many if not most of the cities with cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyboy Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Plus, many if not most of the cities with cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Did anyone notice that Redscare pretty much paraphrased what I said. And why would anyone feel embarrased or need to apologize for Houston's layout. I don't think anyone asked or expects you to do either.Yes, I did paraphrase. In fact, let me quote you directly.Believe me, I know what truly urban is....no place in Texas is there.I agree with this statement completely. That is why I do not call any of these places urban. For you to do so, is to contradict your own statement.BTW, as to largeTexas' post, there are a couple of ways those cities are losing density. One is the same suburban sprawl occurring there as is occurring in the Southern cities. So, the metro areas are becoming less dense. The other way cities are becoming less dense is the fact that large families are moving out of the cities and being replaced by singles and couples living in homes where families formerly lived. Additionally, new construction generally is replacing smaller housing units with larger ones. Both of these trends cause fewer people to be living in the area than previously. Chicago has actually been losing population for 5 years, even though it is experiencing one of the bigger condo building booms in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonfella Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 And how is this even important Mr. Cheerleader who probably have never left Houston's massive city limits a day in his life? Yes...Houston is the fourth largest Horray Horray Horray.And with That being said Houston SEEMS to be the last to do anything so every thing tends to appear rushed and not planned very well. Yeah. Last? We built the Astrodome that changed the sports world. Irving copied us, but look at the ugly stadium the Irving Cowchips play in now. We built the Galleria that changed the shopping world. Dallas tried to one up us, but Galleria Dallas is so small that we could fit it inside the Houston Galleria many times over. We are home of the most Fortune 500 companies and Texas' tallest buildings. We are home of over 2 million people in the city proper. We have beaches 45 miles south of Houston. Dallas has Corsicana, fruitcake land. So don't do the Dallatude thing with me. I have been very complimentary of Dallas' new performance hall and other Dallas things. Did you forget how quickly I defended the performance hall when some Houstonian said "big deal"? But fabulous Dallas can't even build its winning football team a stadium. So you wanna talk who is last? By the way, I travel to New York City all the time and stay at the Pierre and W (if you can grasp that aspect). At any rate, having lived in San Francisco and Houston, what makes you think you can tell "Mr. Cheerleader" (isn't Dallas famous for that? they send those ugly cheerleader drag queens to Houston's gay pride every year) that he has never left Houston's massive city limits? You don't know me, so don't start saying things about a person whom you don't even know. I'll tell you this, I am classy enough not to go to a Dallas board and disrespect the Metroplex. Learn how to spell Hooray, please. And Dallas isn't nearly as cool as you think. In fact, wait til January, 19 degrees will be how cool Dallas will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
largeTEXAS Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Where did you get the info. that people are moving from these areas...I'm not doubting you, but everything I've seen and read is to the contrary. There will always be people who are going to flee the city, that's nothing new. But if sprawl is our future, we're all damned!!!It is depressing, but here are just a couple of references about the population and job shift:http://www.topix.net/content/trb/176876614...229890065445734"Cook County (Chicago) lost more people between 2000 and 2005 than any county in the nation, according to Census Bureau estimates released Thursday that also show continued gains in suburban and exurban counties across the region and portions of the nation."http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8411119/Big cities losing peopleJobs, cheaper housing in suburbs attract newcomers"The list of former gainers (of population) that have lost population since 2000 include Boston, Chicago, Minneapolis and San Francisco."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Paris"Well into the middle of the 20th century, the majority of jobs in the metropolitan area were concentrated in the city of Paris proper. However, after the Second World War the economic activity relocated to the suburbs, and the city has been steadily losing jobs to the benefit of the suburbs..."etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyboy Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Yes, I did paraphrase. In fact, let me quote you directly.I agree with this statement completely. That is why I do not call any of these places urban. For you to do so, is to contradict your own statement.I don't feel I contradicted myself at all. Once again, truly urban to me is New York City. But I don't ever expect Houston to look like New York. Just because you don't consider what's going on in the sunbelt states urban that's you. I just consider it a different take on urbanism that is mostly due to the infrastructure, logistics, attitudes and ages of southern cities. Your insistence that Midtown is not urban can be seen to be just as pretentious as those trendy types that use urban to desribe thier dwellings. As if you are so well travelled, you are the only person in Houston that can deem a development urban. Although I grew up in New York and other "urban" cities, I applaud Texas cities for the attempt to urbanize. It may be different than the ubanization I grew up with, but I would be stupid to expect it to be the same.Thanks largetexas great information. But as Redscare said, a lot of the loss can be attributed to families. What would really concern me is if more companies and jobs continue to flock to the surburbs, then even hardcore city dwellers would be tempted to move out to surbania. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonfella Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Bottom line re: urbanism: Texas ain't made that way. We have wide opens spaces, lots of land and urban environments are only pockets, certainly nothing like San Francisco or New York. Personally, I love my wide open spaces. I love driving my car to work; the freedom of going to lunch 5 miles aways if I desire without getting on a train or bus and definitely love not having to fight the masses going to and fro (as in when I work in our New York office). By the end of the week in that urban environment, I am totally ready for the wide open spaces and my automobile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyboy Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 ^^^That's great hf. You're denitely in the right place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 ^^^That's great hf. You're denitely in the right place. so are you troyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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