Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[Willy1]

Just remember, Los Angeles is the densest North American city...way beyond NY or Chicago! Not many even refer to it as "urban." The trendy urban seems to describe a very nostalgic, 19th century-looking building made of brick. Plus, many if not most of the cities with cool

[Ethanra]

Do cities like SF, have areas with non-livable areas that take up huge amounts of land? Doesn't Houston have 3 airports, a lake, ship channel, flood plain out in far west houston. How do you get about finding the density of a paticular area, like from inside the loop west of DT or the actual area where people live?

[Willy1]

^^^^ Yes, SF has a giant area that takes up a large portion of the city and is uninhabitable - SF bay! LOL... I don't think density is measured in that way. It's measured by people per square mile so it's a fairly even measurement of a city's density. I don't think airports or parks would impact city density figures... they measure around things like that from what I've always understood. So, Houston's airports and SF Bay would not affect the density of the city. But, don't quote me on that...

There really aren't any really dense cities in Texas. In fact, most Southern and Southwestern cities are very sparse when it comes to population density. Most of the really dense cites are located in the North East and along the west coast. I believe the eastern cities are so dense partly because they got a jump start before cars were available/popular and therefore density provided easier mobility because a need for close proximity to everything was necessary at the time. The west coast cities are dense simply because of demand to be near the water and beach, partially...

We just got stuck in the middle... literally and figuratively. We (Texas cities) will never see the kind of density that NYC or SF enjoy. We would have to basically start over to do that. We will, instead, have pockets of density surrounded by large swaths of sprawl... It's just the way we're built.

[The Great Hizzy!]

LargeTEXAS wasn't talking about the municipal boundaries of LA versus NY or whoever. He was referring to the Los Angeles Urbanized Area, which is the densest UA in the nation.

[Willy1]

LargeTEXAS wasn't talking about the municipal boundaries of LA versus NY or whoever. He was referring to the Los Angeles Urbanized Area, which is the densest UA in the nation.

I just found an article online supporting that LA is the densest. Not to doubt you or the article, but it just seems logical that NYC Metro or UA, or whatever, would be the most densly populated urban area since it takes up far less space in square miles, and have a much higher metro population than LA-metro... But, what do I know... Anyway, after reading this article, I never want ANY of the cities in Texas to become "urban" in the way this article describes. It sounds horrible. I was in LA last year and I've been to NYC too... Even if LA is more dense, it is NOT as urban as NYC. NYC is just the icon of urbanity in the U.S. LA is the icon of sprawl, even if it is dense sprawl unlike here in Texas! Here is the link to the article. I'd be interested to hear what others think of the "land of dreams". Don't get me wrong, I love LA... but after reading this article I'm not sure I'd ever want to live there...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...BAGDKE94M01.DTL

[houstonfella]

I agree with you about living in L.A. Oh, no. I'll take Texas -- Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, San Antone, anyplace Texas (almost) before L.A. But having been to New York City countless times, the masses of people, the zillion taxis and people like rats running around in a maze, I think, would be worse than L.A. Great places to visit and do things. Then come back to the Lone Star State.

[slfunk]

I agree with you about living in L.A. Oh, no. I'll take Texas -- Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, San Antone, anyplace Texas (almost) before L.A. But having been to New York City countless times, the masses of people, the zillion taxis and people like rats running around in a maze, I think, would be worse than L.A. Great places to visit and do things. Then come back to the Lone Star State.

Have to agree with you abut NYC. I was recently up there this past spring. I lived there right after college, and been back since. This past visit had been the first time in about 2 yrs, so I had sometime to really get use to living in uptown (Dallas). Honestly I love the vibrancy of NYC and we should appreciate it, but I'm not sure that I could live there again. (unless there is a fitting salary, but architecture tends not to lend that). I felt coming back there was much to be desired in NYC when thinking of living in a place that allows less stress. We in the Sunbelt cities have such a huge opportunity to develop in a different more responsible manner with more green space incorporated into urban design, controlling density better, working with transportation options etc. Eventhough we (in sunbelt cities especially in Texas) have many parking lots scattered throughout our downtowns, I believe it is a blessing in disguise. Why? because we have some acreage that currently lends itself to a blank canvas in design. There are a lot of lessons to learn from these older cities in the NE as to what works, what doesn't, whats appealing, and what will work in today's lifestyles. The older cities don't really have that option except for being faced with huge costs to redevelop something. Our firm specializes in that (urban planning). Our planning group has put together a redevelopment study in Queens to add more green space with mixed use development. Our firm also uses Texas and mostly Dallas as precedent for studying and defining more complex projects and our clients are bringing some this to Houston, Austin, some places on the SE coast line...vice versa. There firms in Houston bringing what works there to Dallas. You will see more developments like Atlantic Station in Atlanta, HP, Victory, West Village, redevelopment of downtown Austin... Some will be more successful then others, some will have more successful components then others, some will just hit a homerun.

Someone alluded either in this thread or another that our cities in the Sunbelt are no where near being urban. Well I have to disagree, because they are by the very definition, and all the while we are bringing hints of that 'suburban' quality into the city. For example, the Azure here is incorporating private garages for condo owners in the garage design for the 31 story tower. Designers are working through unit studies to supply more storage in the units, the pools are no longer just something to get wet in but a place to truly lounge and escape in the city. These were qualities for the longest time thought to only exist in the burbs, and today are too expensive to develop the square footage needed for such ammenties in cities like Boston, NYC, and Chicago. . We are seeing retail developed in a different manner than what exists in older cities. We are discovering new relationships between retail, commercial, hospitality, health care, senior living, higher educational facilities, residential, and others that we did not think of before because for one land was so inexpensive in the sunbelt cities that we developed our land with notion one building = one use. Today if a developer wants to build something in-town in say Dallas or Houston they may not be able to do just residential or just retail because they could not get the rents to make the project successful - so they end up combining the two. As land prices continue to increase in this recent time of development, we are learning how to accomodate the car more in urban settings, work with city officials to guide them how to revise city development standards, and bring something that will in the future make the sunbelt cities more desirable to live in than the traditional cities of the NE.

[houstonfella]

Have to agree with you abut NYC. I was recently up there this past spring. I lived there right after college, and been back since. This past visit had been the first time in about 2 yrs, so I had sometime to really get use to living in uptown (Dallas). Honestly I love the vibrancy of NYC and we should appreciate it, but I'm not sure that I could live there again. (unless there is a fitting salary, but architecture tends not to lend that). I felt coming back there was much to be desired in NYC when thinking of living in a place that allows less stress. We in the Sunbelt cities have such a huge opportunity to develop in a different more responsible manner with more green space incorporated into urban design, controlling density better, working with transportation options etc. Eventhough we (in sunbelt cities especially in Texas) have many parking lots scattered throughout our downtowns, I believe it is a blessing in disguise. Why? because we have some acreage that currently lends itself to a blank canvas in design. There are a lot of lessons to learn from these older cities in the NE as to what works, what doesn't, whats appealing, and what will work in today's lifestyles. The older cities don't really have that option except for being faced with huge costs to redevelop something. Our firm specializes in that (urban planning). Our planning group has put together a redevelopment study in Queens to add more green space with mixed use development. Our firm also uses Texas and mostly Dallas as precedent for studying and defining more complex projects and our clients are bringing some this to Houston, Austin, some places on the SE coast line...vice versa. There firms in Houston bringing what works there to Dallas. You will see more developments like Atlantic Station in Atlanta, HP, Victory, West Village, redevelopment of downtown Austin... Some will be more successful then others, some will have more successful components then others, some will just hit a homerun.

Someone alluded either in this thread or another that our cities in the Sunbelt are no where near being urban. Well I have to disagree, because they are by the very definition, and all the while we are bringing hints of that 'suburban' quality into the city. For example, the Azure here is incorporating private garages for condo owners in the garage design for the 31 story tower. Designers are working through unit studies to supply more storage in the units, the pools are no longer just something to get wet in but a place to truly lounge and escape in the city. These were qualities for the longest time thought to only exist in the burbs, and today are too expensive to develop the square footage needed for such ammenties in cities like Boston, NYC, and Chicago. . We are seeing retail developed in a different manner than what exists in older cities. We are discovering new relationships between retail, commercial, hospitality, health care, senior living, higher educational facilities, residential, and others that we did not think of before because for one land was so inexpensive in the sunbelt cities that we developed our land with notion one building = one use. Today if a developer wants to build something in-town in say Dallas or Houston they may not be able to do just residential or just retail because they could not get the rents to make the project successful - so they end up combining the two. As land prices continue to increase in this recent time of development, we are learning how to accomodate the car more in urban settings, work with city officials to guide them how to revise city development standards, and bring something that will in the future make the sunbelt cities more desirable to live in than the traditional cities of the NE.

Thank you. You summarized my posts in one quick link. Yes, NY is great. But, yes, NY is so urban that it can be intimidating and hard to manage. Dallas and Houston are great NEW places to live and shed that old subway and two hour commute thing. I drive to work about 18-20 minutes at most. If there is an accident, of course, it might take 30 minutes. Our NY office co-workers tell me they all take 1 and 1 half hours to 2 hours to get to work.

But getting back to Dal and Hou, we are two great cities that are going to get better as time moves along.

Why is it that Dallas on the "Trinity" River and having Thanksgiving Square and Victory Project have such religious themes? Bible Belt Babes I guess. +

[slfunk]

Thank you. You summarized my posts in one quick link. Yes, NY is great. But, yes, NY is so urban that it can be intimidating and hard to manage. Dallas and Houston are great NEW places to live and shed that old subway and two hour commute thing. I drive to work about 18-20 minutes at most. If there is an accident, of course, it might take 30 minutes. Our NY office co-workers tell me they all take 1 and 1 half hours to 2 hours to get to work.

But getting back to Dal and Hou, we are two great cities that are going to get better as time moves along.

Why is it that Dallas on the "Trinity" River and having Thanksgiving Square and Victory Project have such religious themes? Bible Belt Babes I guess. +

You lost me? The Trinty River's name came from the translation of the Indian Tribe's name for this area where three forks of the river came together. The Indians used this land because of the fertile soil left after flooding occurred around where the 3 forks of the Trinty came together. Thanksgiving Square came about yes because of religion, but umm what cities don't have similar squares or civic gathering places with religious connotation. Victory's name came about because its around a sports venue and has no religious connection unless like many you think sports is a religion We should know we helped with the branding for another project for the same players of Victory who are working on another project somewhere else in the metro.

[houstonfella]

You lost me? The Trinty River's name came from the translation of the Indian Tribe's name for this area where three forks of the river came together. The Indians used this land because of the fertile soil left after flooding occurred around where the 3 forks of the Trinty came together. Thanksgiving Square came about yes because of religion, but umm what cities don't have similar squares or civic gathering places with religious connotation. Victory's name came about because its around a sports venue and has no religious connection unless like many you think sports is a religion We should know we helped with the branding for another project for the same players of Victory who are working on another project somewhere else in the metro.

You are correct ... Houston does have some religious themes: Reliant Park - makes you speak in tongues when you get your bill Minute Maid Park.... that one just doesn't seem to be religious (only corporately speaking) and Toyota Center ... gotta think about that one. Question: Trinity seems to be the three crosses where Jesus and those other dudes got nailed to and died. But it means "three" eh?

[slfunk]

You are correct ... Houston does have some religious themes: Reliant Park - makes you speak in tongues when you get your bill Minute Maid Park.... that one just doesn't seem to be religious (only corporately speaking) and Toyota Center ... gotta think about that one. Question: Trinity seems to be the three crosses where Jesus and those other dudes got nailed to and died. But it means "three" eh?

So I got the translation wrong. It came from a Spainish explorer who later the Caddo Indians told the new settlers it was named the Trinity.... So here's a quick excerpt on history

A quick google search:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

"....The word "Trinity" comes from "Trinitas", a Latin abstract noun that most literally means "three-ness" (or "the property of occurring three at once"). Or, simply put, "three are one".

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online...es/TT/rnt2.html

"....TRINITY RIVER. The Trinity River rises in three principal branches: the East Fork, the Elm Fork, and the West Fork. A fourth headstream, shorter and smaller, is known as the Clear Fork. The East Fork of the Trinity River rises in central Grayson County and flows south seventy-eight miles, through central Collin, western Rockwall, eastern Dallas, and western Kaufman counties, to the southwestern part of Kaufman County, where it joins the West Fork. The Elm Fork of the Trinity rises in eastern Montague County and flows southeast eighty-five miles, through Cooke and Denton counties, to a confluence with the West Fork, which forms the Trinity River proper a mile west of downtown Dallas in central Dallas County...."

"....The Trinity has been identified as the stream that the Caddo Indians called Arkikosa in Central Texas and Daycoa nearer the coast, as well as the one that R

[largeTEXAS]

LargeTEXAS wasn't talking about the municipal boundaries of LA versus NY or whoever. He was referring to the Los Angeles Urbanized Area, which is the densest UA in the nation.

Thanks The Great Hizzy! You are exactly right. Los Angeles has the densest Urbanized Area in N. America followed by Toronto. Here's the data:

http://www.demographia.com/db-uauscan.htm

Urban Areas over 250,000 in Canada &

United States Ranked by Population Density

This table reflects the corrected data released

by the US Census Bureau 2002.08.25

Rank Nation Urbanized Area Population

Rank Nation Urbanized Area Population Rank Square Miles Population/Square Mile KM2 Population/KM2

1 United States Los Angeles--Long Beach, CA 11,789,487 2 1,667.93 7,068.3 4,319.93 2,729.1

2 Canada Toronto, ON 4,366,508 6 638.83 6,835.2 1,654.56 2,639.1

3 United States San Francisco--Oakland, CA 3,228,605 13 526.66 6,130.4 1,364.03 2,367.0

4 United States San Jose, CA 1,538,312 27 260.11 5,914.1 673.68 2,283.4

5 United States New York--Newark, NY--NJ--CT 17,799,861 1 3,352.60 5,309.3 8,683.20 2,049.9

41 United States Houston, TX 3,822,509 11 1,295.27 2,951.1 3,354.72 1,139.4

42 United States Dallas--Fort Worth--Arlington, TX 4,145,659 7 1,407.04 2,946.4 3,644.22 1,137.6

That said, I love what slfunk said about redefining this region's notion of "urban." I think the model of cities built predominantly in or before the 19th Century doesn't help us much today. Our "urban" has more to do with convenience, preference, and, even, emotion, than necessity. People like their cars and, as much as we try, I don't think we will ever totally eliminate them from our urban fabric. I think a density level that is somewhere in the 4,500 population per sq mile would be ideal as long as we incorporate lots of green space and, yes, parking. Great post slfunk!

[RedScare]

Trinity seems to be the three crosses where Jesus and those other dudes got nailed to and died. But it means "three" eh?

THAT's what you think the "trinity" means? You failed Sunday school, didn't you?

[houstonfella]

THAT's what you think the "trinity" means? You failed Sunday school, didn't you?

Failed, hell, I don't do the religious thing. It's all a made up bunch of crap anyway.

[C2H]

does anyone think that the Houston downtown skyline will maybe light up the buildings in a more colorful, exciting way once the Pavilions gets built? Or will they stick to the same boring white christmas light scheme?

Hopefully the HP building and towers don't follow suit and slap the same ol' white christmas lights on their structures. I hope they encourage more lighting variety and start something new

[houstonfella]

does anyone think that the Houston downtown skyline will maybe light up the buildings in a more colorful, exciting way once the Pavilions gets built? Or will they stick to the same boring white christmas light scheme?

Hopefully the HP building and towers don't follow suit and slap the same ol' white christmas lights on their structures. I hope they encourage more lighting variety and start something new

White lights. Ho Hum. How do other Texas cities light up during the holiday season. We can beat and greet them with the best at yuletide. Been to the Post Oak festivities lately???? Oh, yeah, we can do it up right. H-town (the BOA Tower has a Christmas spirit with its lighted spires). I miss the Reliant building's fascinating changing lights, bars of color; anybody know where that went?

[scarface]

Oh, yeah, we can do it up right. H-town (the BOA Tower has a Christmas spirit with its lighted spires). I miss the Reliant building's fascinating changing lights, bars of color; anybody know where that went?

You probably miss the Reliant building because you haven't been downtown @ night lately. The Reliant Building's color changing bars have been back on for about 2-3 weeks now.

I agree C2H. I think the White Christmas lights definitely mess up the Houston skyline at night. They should leave the christmas lights to the holiday season only. Turn them off the week after new years just like they do in Uptown.

Dallas and Austin have the best night skylines in Texas as far as i'm concerned

[houstonfella]

You probably miss the Reliant building because you haven't been downtown @ night lately. The Reliant Building's color changing bars have been back on for about 2-3 weeks now.

I agree C2H. I think the White Christmas lights definitely mess up the Houston skyline at night. They should leave the christmas lights to the holiday season only. Turn them off the week after new years just like they do in Uptown.

Dallas and Austin have the best night skylines in Texas as far as i'm concerned

Yeah, but Austin is in the smaller city category. Houston has to compete with Dallas and Dallas' lighting is much better.

THANKS for letting me know Reliant's cool lighted bars are back in operation. I don't get down there much; but I haven't seen 'em early in the mornings lately.

[Houston19514]

any updates on Victory Tower?

[kenc]

any updates on Victory Tower?

I work 3 blocks from Victory and walk by there all the time. Here's what I know as of 11/9/06:

Workers just re-located a temporary valet parking area that the W was using as overflow from the site of Victory Tower. Just today I noticed they are really beginning to move dirt. This 43 story building is officially under way.

The House, which is the 28 story condo tower designed partly by Phillipe Starck will break ground this weekend, and is offering free hot air balloon rides to the folks who come to the festivities. (I might go, except I don't like heights-so no hot air balloon ride for me). As part of the retail for this building they plan a small "urban" grocery store.

The Cirque, 26 story apartment / retail building has reachd the 7-8 story height level. This tower started out slow, but is really going strong now.

The first of 2 18 story office buildings is slated to begin construction in Jan, 2007.

[Houston19514]

I work 3 blocks from Victory and walk by there all the time. Here's what I know as of 11/9/06:

Workers just re-located a temporary valet parking area that the W was using as overflow from the site of Victory Tower. Just today I noticed they are really beginning to move dirt. This 43 story building is officially under way.

Is it "officially"? With no groundbreaking announcement? That would be a little surprising.

[houstonfella]

43 floors? Whooo weeeee.... we wouldn't know nuttin' like that down here in Houston.

[C2H]

The House, which is the 28 story condo tower designed partly by Phillipe Starck will break ground this weekend, and is offering free hot air balloon rides to the folks who come to the festivities. (I might go, except I don't like heights-so no hot air balloon ride for me).

Can you or someone from Dallas provide some more information regarding this. I'm flying in to Houston this afternoon and would love to drive to Dallas w/ my girlfriend to attend the festivites (i.e. a free hot air balloon ride).

[houstonfella]

Can you or someone from Dallas provide some more information regarding this. I'm flying in to Houston this afternoon and would love to drive to Dallas w/ my girlfriend to attend the festivites (i.e. a free hot air balloon ride).

Hot air ballon in Napa Valley once. Quite an experience. Of course, there, the scenery is "awesome"! Go for it.

[Dallascaper]

43 floors? Whooo weeeee.... we wouldn't know nuttin' like that down here in Houston.

Well that's too bad. Since you didn't know, Houston is home an impressive collection of towers, several of which exceed 43 floors. See, even on this board it is possible to learn something new.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Your sarcasm detector might need adjusting.

[houstonfella]

Your sarcasm detector might need adjusting.

Thanks, Hizz...... uh .... just kiddin' folks....

[Guest Marty]

Sorry Dallas i voted for Houston Pavilions. But both cities are beautiful.

[Dallascaper]

Your sarcasm detector might need adjusting.

What, sarcasm on this board? I never could have imagined. But thanks for the clue, The Great Hizzy.

[dfwcre8tive]

Don't know if these have been posted before:

VICTORY PARK VIDEO

Map and list of Victory retail