Texas Central Project

[cspwal]

I think a good argument for it being downtown is accessibility - it can be tedious to get to west loop from the SE suburbs, from the NE suburbs, and remember there aren't many north south routes in the area around the NW mall site.  For people living on the SW side, it might actually take the same amount of time at peak hours to get to the NW mall site as downtown with traffic on west loop.

 

Looking a population distributions and job distributions, I do tend to agree both centers are little west, however the NW mall site isn't near anything.

From the NW mall it's a 13 min drive to downtown, 11 min drive to uptown/galleria, 20 min to the med center, and 16 min to the energy corridor

From a downtown station, a drive to a downtown office would be less than 5 minutes, 16 min to uptown/gallleria, 12 min to the med center, and 23 min to the energy corridor.

 

 

[Slick Vik]

I'd argue that downtown is not the center of the Houston area. This is based on my perspective of the majority of the population living west, south and north of the city. Sure there are loops that DT is the center of, but there is far less east of Houston.

Also, HSR in other countries does not typically enter metro centers but terminates outside city centers and uses local rail to connect. For example the Tokyo station is roughly 7 miles from downtown.

Geographically it is the center.

[IronTiger]

Geographically it is the center.

 

Even the "geographically in the center" argument isn't the best, because it actually isn't. There's an old article referenced in some Google searching about the River Oaks area being the center, and that seems to be the best bet in reference to a U.S. Census Map. But if we want to account for the skewing of the annexation of Kingwood and the airport area, that would push it northeast toward The Heights. If you're talking about the Houston general urban area for taxes and other purposes, that would probably be closer to the North Loop, and if you were talking about the whole developed area, we're talking Baytown to Katy here, The Woodlands to some areas north of Galveston, Cypress to Pasadena, well, I played around with some measurements and roughly ended up getting something in the Heights as well. This is because the growth of Houston's area is disproportionately growing toward the west, northwest, and the north, instead of the southeast and east. Part of this is because of the refineries and areas developed years ago, but also naturally. If you start in downtown and go about 25 miles northwest as the crow flies, you'll end up in Cypress with its cancerous master planned communities. Go southeast the same distance and you'll end up in Galveston bay, perhaps directly on the shoreline of Seabrook or something.

[IronTiger]

I think a good argument for it being downtown is accessibility - it can be tedious to get to west loop from the SE suburbs, from the NE suburbs, and remember there aren't many north south routes in the area around the NW mall site.  For people living on the SW side, it might actually take the same amount of time at peak hours to get to the NW mall site as downtown with traffic on west loop.

 

Looking a population distributions and job distributions, I do tend to agree both centers are little west, however the NW mall site isn't near anything.

From the NW mall it's a 13 min drive to downtown, 11 min drive to uptown/galleria, 20 min to the med center, and 16 min to the energy corridor

From a downtown station, a drive to a downtown office would be less than 5 minutes, 16 min to uptown/gallleria, 12 min to the med center, and 23 min to the energy corridor.

Well, IAH seems to do okay, and it's not particularly close to anything either. As of this writing, it's a 26 minute drive to get to downtown from Northwest Mall (peak traffic), and if I could get the same metrics you're using, I could at least show you that Northwest Mall is a "bargain" compared to the airport, and if we go on "geographical center", NW Mall isn't terribly far off the mark either, despite what it seems.

[cspwal]

I was using google maps w/o traffic.

 

IAH does well because it's the main airport; if it was the end all of airports, Hobby wouldn't be operating at all.  Airports require large amounts of land (for runways, taxiways, and gates) that a train station doesn't really need.  Additionally, the land directly adjacent to the runways and along the extended center lines will get noise pollution, much more than a train station typically does.  That is why most major airports are located outside the city.  Off the top of my head, only Meigs Field in Chicago was built close to the existing city, and even then that was further out.

 

Train stations also used to be built just outside the main downtown; if you look at Houston's old stations they were across the bayou (SP depot/Post Office site) and on the periphery (Union Station/MMP).  Towns grew up around them though and they became inside downtowns

 

Where Houston and Dallas end up building their new HSR stations will become the new normal of where new construction train stations go in the US - it will be interesting to see where that will be.

[ADCS]

It's a bit disappointing to see how reactive and bogged down in personal politics the station site selection process seems to be. It might help if TCR/TCP presented a vision of what any station site may look like.

[mfastx]

Part of the advantage of HSR is that it gets you to the center, closer to your destination.  A station near 290 accomplishes this decently, but downtown is much closer to the center of the population in Houston.  

 

If the station is on 290, many people will still opt for flying to Hobby as the drive from there to downtown is comparable. A downtown station would also be closer to Greenway and TMC.  610 West is one of our most congested freeways.  While a 290 station would be closest to Uptown, it would require the majority of people to take 610/I10 to their final destination, further congesting an already congested area. 

 

A station connecting to the light rail system allows a traveler to not need a car if their destination is on a rail line, a huge benefit. 

[cspwal]

It might be interesting to know what the final destinations of people currently traveling from Dallas to Houston are.  Are they mainly going to downtown offices?  Mainly to the galleria area?  All going to the Energy corridor?

 

Of course I want the station downtown so I could easily catch a Texans @ Cowboys game right after work 

[Luminare]

It's a bit disappointing to see how reactive and bogged down in personal politics the station site selection process seems to be. It might help if TCR/TCP presented a vision of what any station site may look like.

 

I have so much to say in regards to MaxConcretes incendiary grenade of a comment, but I'm still trying to get over just how mind boggling narrow minded it is. It makes MaxConcrete sound like someone who has never been outside the state of Texas or even Harris County for that matter.

 

To your point ADCS:

 

More disappointing are all these suburbanites who didn't even want the train in the first place saying.....IT HAS TO BE IN THE NW MALL SITE....because we in the suburbs are more important and should get EVERYTHING! It just comes across as selfish. Sure it hasn't been stated as such, but lets not kid ourselves people that's exactly whats going on.

 

But before I even comment further. Whoever else works in the architecture field in this forum knows all to well the nature of the design process once you start factoring in the user base and getting their feedback. All I can say is that feedback both good or bad is an incredible resource, but should be used as a guide and nothing more. Taken with a grain of salt, and not the ingredients used in the final product. A point of departure to start a process, but not part of the overall sum once you get beyond concept phase. *I'M LOOKING AT YOU SURGE HOMES O.O* Just in my short time as an Architecture Intern I have seen this first hand where its clear some people in the room who are not decision makers try to stuff the project with whatever they want who clearly have an agenda and just want their slice of the pie. Then there are the derailers. The people who have no decision in the project or on anything for that matter, and because of that it is their mission in life to either make it difficult or have a if I can't say anything then no one can. TCR more than anything has to stick with their main goal which they have said in countless meetings and that is get the train from Downtown to Downtown! Its all going to come down to money in the end anyway, but from what TCR have said previously they are looking long term with this project and aren't going to let short term road blocks prevent them reaching their goals. Sure Downtown looks like an expensive and dubious option now, but we have to project this project 10-15 years into the future. The trend for Downtown is going up...wayyyyyy up. Not only that, but the area around it is growing by leaps and bounds. I just had my younger brother who moved into the Heights the other day and even he has been looking into TCR of late, because the prospect of it going to downtown is very intriguing. If Downtown was a total wasteland or the trend was going down then I might side with just putting the station in the suburbs. But come on people pull your head out of your butts! The trend is obvious. Yes the city is still growing outwards, but the people in the rings deeper in the city that are being left behind by the people moving outwards are now moving even further into the city!

 

One more thing...lets not get into bs about "the real center of Houston". By some of y'alls definition of real center of Houston would be Southwest Houston which technically has the highest density in the whole city. Lets cut the technicalities! Downtown is downtown for a reason and thats because it is the true center of town no matter how far to the left or right, north or south the city goes.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Luminare

[cspwal]

List of examples where feedback isn't helpful to improve:

 

- That famous Henry Ford nonquote "If asked what people wanted they would have said faster horses"

 

- Apparently spiny wheels on carry-ons are only there from customer demand, but break easily and are actually harder to maneuver

 

- Surge homes

 

- The Homer Simpsons car

 

- Not this list

[ADCS]

I have so much to say in regards to MaxConcretes incendiary grenade of a comment, but I'm still trying to get over just how mind boggling narrow minded it is. It makes MaxConcrete sound like someone who has never been outside the state of Texas or even Harris County for that matter.

 

To your point ADCS:

 

More disappointing are all these suburbanites who didn't even want the train in the first place saying.....IT HAS TO BE IN THE NW MALL SITE....because we in the suburbs are more important and should get EVERYTHING! It just comes across as selfish. Sure it hasn't been stated as such, but lets not kid ourselves people that's exactly whats going on.

 

But before I even comment further. Whoever else works in the architecture field in this forum knows all to well the nature of the design process once you start factoring in the user base and getting their feedback. All I can say is that feedback both good or bad is an incredible resource, but should be used as a guide and nothing more. Taken with a grain of salt, and not the ingredients used in the final product. A point of departure to start a process, but not part of the overall sum once you get beyond concept phase. *I'M LOOKING AT YOU SURGE HOMES O.O* Just in my short time as an Architecture Intern I have seen this first hand where its clear some people in the room who are not decision makers try to stuff the project with whatever they want who clearly have an agenda and just want their slice of the pie. Then there are the derailers. The people who have no decision in the project or on anything for that matter, and because of that it is their mission in life to either make it difficult or have a if I can't say anything then no one can. TCR more than anything has to stick with their main goal which they have said in countless meetings and that is get the train from Downtown to Downtown! Its all going to come down to money in the end anyway, but from what TCR have said previously they are looking long term with this project and aren't going to let short term road blocks prevent them reaching their goals. Sure Downtown looks like an expensive and dubious option now, but we have to project this project 10-15 years into the future. The trend for Downtown is going up...wayyyyyy up. Not only that, but the area around it is growing by leaps and bounds. I just had my younger brother who moved into the Heights the other day and even he has been looking into TCR of late, because the prospect of it going to downtown is very intriguing. If Downtown was a total wasteland or the trend was going down then I might side with just putting the station in the suburbs. But come on people pull your head out of your butts! The trend is obvious. Yes the city is still growing outwards, but the people in the rings deeper in the city that are being left behind by the people moving outwards are now moving even further into the city!

 

One more thing...lets not get into bs about "the real center of Houston". By some of y'alls definition of real center of Houston would be Southwest Houston which technically has the highest density in the whole city. Lets cut the technicalities! Downtown is downtown for a reason and thats because it is the true center of town no matter how far to the left or right, north or south the city goes.

 

Appreciate the response. A few things:

 

1. Let's not diminish MaxConcrete on account of his preference toward highway-oriented development. He has performed an invaluable service for those of us who appreciate infrastructure in the compilation of both Houston Freeways and Dallas-Fort Worth Freeways, at considerable personal cost. We wouldn't have half of what we know about the Texas freeway system as easily available if he hadn't undertaken those projects.

 

His priorities are different than yours or mine, but they're genuine, I assure you. Part of why I want TCR to succeed is that we have someone in a couple of generations writing a masterwork on the railroad with as much passion as he did about our freeways.

 

2. We also shouldn't box in the opposition to the downtown site that narrowly. The noisiest opponents to the downtown site in Greater Houston haven't been suburbanites - they've been residents of Rice Military who either have an unshakable belief that the line will disrupt everything they enjoy about the neighborhood (I don't exactly have a high opinion of these folks), or a more reasonable concern about property value effects (unwarranted, in my estimation, but understandable in a neighborhood of $750k townhouses).

 

3. TCR's biggest problem so far in Houston is that no one has seen exactly what we'd be getting. I realize that they don't want to overpromise and underdeliver, but some artist's impressions of the urban elevated sections' neighborhood impact, and what a "Grand Central Station" design could contribute to the Downtown skyline, would greatly contribute toward public awareness and the relaxation of public concerns.

 

When you and I imagine urban HSR in Houston, we see dreams. Others see nightmares. Let's get rid of both, and see reality.

[Luminare]

Appreciate the response. A few things:

 

1. Let's not diminish MaxConcrete on account of his preference toward highway-oriented development. He has performed an invaluable service for those of us who appreciate infrastructure in the compilation of both Houston Freeways and Dallas-Fort Worth Freeways, at considerable personal cost. We wouldn't have half of what we know about the Texas freeway system as easily available if he hadn't undertaken those projects.

 

His priorities are different than yours or mine, but they're genuine, I assure you. Part of why I want TCR to succeed is that we have someone in a couple of generations writing a masterwork on the railroad with as much passion as he did about our freeways.

 

2. We also shouldn't box in the opposition to the downtown site that narrowly. The noisiest opponents to the downtown site in Greater Houston haven't been suburbanites - they've been residents of Rice Military who either have an unshakable belief that the line will disrupt everything they enjoy about the neighborhood (I don't exactly have a high opinion of these folks), or a more reasonable concern about property value effects (unwarranted, in my estimation, but understandable in a neighborhood of $750k townhouses).

 

3. TCR's biggest problem so far in Houston is that no one has seen exactly what we'd be getting. I realize that they don't want to overpromise and underdeliver, but some artist's impressions of the urban elevated sections' neighborhood impact, and what a "Grand Central Station" design could contribute to the Downtown skyline, would greatly contribute toward public awareness and the relaxation of public concerns.

 

When you and I imagine urban HSR in Houston, we see dreams. Others see nightmares. Let's get rid of both, and see reality.

 

I completely agree with these observations! I actually had no idea that was MaxConcretes thing. Quite frankly I have no beef with MaxConcrete and think he contributes a lot to this site and most of the time I agree with what he says, but he clearly let his emotions conquer his mind in that response. There is passionate debate and then there is just a straight rant. It just felt off base and not like what I normally see from MaxConcrete. If MaxConcrete is such a master of the freeways I would also imagine he would know the good AND the bad that goes with freeways and the possibilities this project could potentially relieve freeways even just a tad.

 

The thing I always try to get across is that while we think we are in separate camps we can always find some sort of compromise and in the end we just trying to get the same goal just from different end points and thats better mobility wherever we go. I also believe that in order to balance the scales and broaden the range of choices citizens in this city want then you need to press the new option really hard and thats going to upset those who are conditioned to only knowing one way of doing things.

 

I definitely agree that we shouldn't discount about the interior opposition, but then again that wasn't where I was aiming my criticism.

 

As far as public image and perception goes....absolutely TCR has really dropped the ball in terms of marketing. I really think you hit the nail on the head in saying that they are probably being very cautious in not overselling something that is still not a sure thing. They still have some hurtles to go through. I seems like they have gone the complete opposite of what happened the last time we were sold on an HSR idea. Essentially they want to cover their bases it seems before they even promote the product. The problem in this is that in an age where we get information by the second people want that information about future events just as quickly and when they don't get it then they get weary. I'm hoping that now that they have passed the Environmental study we may soon get a look at some concept images and I'm really hoping who will be designing the stations. With how much grief other HSR plans have had in the past I'm willing to let them loose on the flashy marketing end if they can soon present a more sure thing later, but the time is coming where the public will want something!

[cspwal]

I think they are relying on being a private company to insulate them from early political opposition, letting them do the big PR push once they are ready to start construction and land purchases.  I wonder how the actual construction will go - multiple segments at once, or just start in Dallas/Houston and crawl down the country side.

[IronTiger]

Honestly, my biggest reason against a downtown site would be difficult access and land use. As stated, a major transit center with HSR, Amtrak, light rail, Greyhound, and bus sounds like a pretty cool idea on paper (I can already see Cloud sketching something up), but the way that highways are aligned would make it rather difficult, unless the highway system was rebuilt to accommodate such as venture (even the "Pierce becoming a spur that feeds into downtown" idea is still a bit difficult overall at best). Furthermore, if feeding this idea is to add something to the skyline, forget it unless you wanted to build a tower over it. Realistically, the best site for a downtown station is going to involve buying out UH-D, which isn't going to happen, and a shame too, because it has basically all the connections for a nice transit center already there.

 

[The Pragmatist]

The parcels of land in between UHD and the post office site on both sides of the train tracks tracks could be purposed as such. Hell, the lot with the Chase drive-in just across the bayou could be used for a parking garage with skywalk connections to such an intermodal transit center. Then a walkway could be built over to UHD and the red line. Of course, this is a simple, "what if" just to add to the conversation.

Edited September 1, 2015 by The Pragmatist

[mollusk]

IDK about downtown being so inaccessible.  150,000 or so worker bees manage to wander in daily.

 

Side note - for eons, I've been tickled that many of the same people who go into spasms of gut wrenching fear about the idea of driving downtown, with its wide streets in a tidy grid pattern and all sorts of converging means of access, also do their holiday shopping at the Galleria without batting an eye.

[Houston19514]

Yeah, there is simply no place in the metro area that is as easily accessible from all parts of the metro area as downtown Houston.  (And fwiw, the same cannot be said for downtown Dallas.)

Edited September 2, 2015 by Houston19514

[Houston19514]

Honestly, my biggest reason against a downtown site would be difficult access and land use. As stated, a major transit center with HSR, Amtrak, light rail, Greyhound, and bus sounds like a pretty cool idea on paper (I can already see Cloud sketching something up), but the way that highways are aligned would make it rather difficult, unless the highway system was rebuilt to accommodate such as venture (even the "Pierce becoming a spur that feeds into downtown" idea is still a bit difficult overall at best). Furthermore, if feeding this idea is to add something to the skyline, forget it unless you wanted to build a tower over it. Realistically, the best site for a downtown station is going to involve buying out UH-D, which isn't going to happen, and a shame too, because it has basically all the connections for a nice transit center already there.

 

Sorry, but there is nothing in your post that makes any sense at all.  As already stated, there is simply no place in the metro with better access from all directions than downtown.  There is zero reason to think we could not accommodate the meeting of an HSR line, the light rail, a Greyhound depot and metro buses without buying out UH-D (perhaps some of UH-D's vacant land might be used, but that is all the better.)  Not sure where the "HSR causing additions to the skyline" idea came from, but there is nothing wrong with building a tower over or next to an HSR station.  

 

There is plenty of room for everyone on the northern edge of downtown.  A [major] transit center with HSR, Amtrak, light rail, Greyhound and bus just does not need that much space.  Light rail and Amtrak are already there.  A transit center/station for all components, with a walkway to the light rail station would not take that much space (and there's no reason it could not have a tower (or towers) above it).

Edited September 2, 2015 by Houston19514

[Ross]

Sorry, but there is nothing in your post that makes any sense at all. As already stated, there is simply no place in the metro with better access from all directions than downtown. There is zero reason to think we could not accommodate the meeting of an HSR line, the light rail, a Greyhound depot and metro buses without buying out UH-D (perhaps some of UH-D's vacant land might be used, but that is all the better.) Not sure where the "HSR causing additions to the skyline" idea came from, but there is nothing wrong with building a tower over or next to an HSR station.

There is plenty of room for everyone on the northern edge of downtown. A [major] transit center with HSR, Amtrak, light rail, Greyhound and bus just does not need that much space. Light rail and Amtrak are already there. A transit center/station for all components, with a walkway to the light rail station would not take that much space (and there's no reason it could not have a tower (or towers) above it).

That assumes there's a reasonable way to get HSR to Downtown without major disruption to the areas the rail transits inside the Loop. I am not convinced that's possible.

[IronTiger]

Sorry, but there is nothing in your post that makes any sense at all.  As already stated, there is simply no place in the metro with better access from all directions than downtown.  There is zero reason to think we could not accommodate the meeting of an HSR line, the light rail, a Greyhound depot and metro buses without buying out UH-D (perhaps some of UH-D's vacant land might be used, but that is all the better.)  Not sure where the "HSR causing additions to the skyline" idea came from, but there is nothing wrong with building a tower over or next to an HSR station.  

 

There is plenty of room for everyone on the northern edge of downtown.  A [major] transit center with HSR, Amtrak, light rail, Greyhound and bus just does not need that much space.  Light rail and Amtrak are already there.  A transit center/station for all components, with a walkway to the light rail station would not take that much space (and there's no reason it could not have a tower (or towers) above it).

The skyline idea came from this quote:

I realize that they don't want to overpromise and underdeliver, but some artist's impressions of the urban elevated sections' neighborhood impact, and what a "Grand Central Station" design could contribute to the Downtown skyline, would greatly contribute toward public awareness and the relaxation of public concerns.

First, let's assume that the corridors into downtown are in fact possible, as ROW starts getting really tight right around the Walmart area. Now that we've gotten that all out of the way, the first thing that the area needs is proper road access, which is necessary if it's to be some sort of airline alternative. Problem is, if it's at the north side of downtown near the railroad, there's no effective way to get in or out. The highways do in fact feed into downtown. Ramps turn into the downtown street grid and vice versa. But as for destinations, it's terrible, because one direction won't enter the same way as the other direction, and so forth. By one Dallas news estimate, there will be 24 trips a day from Dallas to Houston, with each train having 400-450 seats, which is going to be a ridership of 10,000. That's a lot of people going in and out of the area. But since the Amtrak site seems to be the best choice, it's not actually in downtown, and could be accessed sans the screwy highway patterns and antagonistic grid streets. Exiting Taylor Street and going down Washington would do the trick.

The real question is how ambitious it is. If it's going to have the popularity of a small airport, then Northwest Mall is the better choice, being easily accessible from 290, 610, and I-10. If it's going to have the popularity of just a big park-n-ride, then maybe being close to downtown isn't a bad idea.

[Houston19514]

The skyline idea came from this quote:

First, let's assume that the corridors into downtown are in fact possible, as ROW starts getting really tight right around the Walmart area. Now that we've gotten that all out of the way, the first thing that the area needs is proper road access, which is necessary if it's to be some sort of airline alternative. Problem is, if it's at the north side of downtown near the railroad, there's no effective way to get in or out. The highways do in fact feed into downtown. Ramps turn into the downtown street grid and vice versa. But as for destinations, it's terrible, because one direction won't enter the same way as the other direction, and so forth. By one Dallas news estimate, there will be 24 trips a day from Dallas to Houston, with each train having 400-450 seats, which is going to be a ridership of 10,000. That's a lot of people going in and out of the area. But since the Amtrak site seems to be the best choice, it's not actually in downtown, and could be accessed sans the screwy highway patterns and antagonistic grid streets. Exiting Taylor Street and going down Washington would do the trick.

The real question is how ambitious it is. If it's going to have the popularity of a small airport, then Northwest Mall is the better choice, being easily accessible from 290, 610, and I-10. If it's going to have the popularity of just a big park-n-ride, then maybe being close to downtown isn't a bad idea.

 

Indeed, we need "proper road access".  

 

As you say, the Northwest Mall site is accessible from 290, 610 and 10.  The downtown site is just as easily accessible (arguably easier) from I-10, I-45, and I69/US59.  Perhaps you've noticed, Houston's freeway system radiates in all directions, with downtown at the the center of the system.  I'm not following your conclusion that, even though freeways feed into and out of downtown in all directions, somehow "as for destinations, it's terrible".  How is a downtown station terrible "as for destinations"?  And how is the Northwest Mall site better?

 

10,000 passengers a day?  That is not a large number to handle.  About 1/2 that number use Metro's Main Street Square station on an average day.  Look at the sites they are looking at in Dallas to get an idea of how much space they need.  The sites we are discussing downtown (either Hardy Yards area or (my preference) the Amtrak/Post Office site, have plenty of space.

 

Antagonistic grid streets?  I'm not sure where to start with that.  Maybe I'll let a traffic engineer address that silliness.

 

Here are some examples of travel to various destinations from the two sites, according to Google Maps:

 

Texas Medical Center:

From Northwest Mall by car:  25 Minutes

From Post Office site by car:  14 Minutes

From Northwest Mall by transit:  1 hour, 2 minute

From Post Office site by transit:  36 minutes

 

BG Group Place (as a stand-in for the hundreds of downtown destinations):

From Northwest Mall by car:  18 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  5 minutes

From Northwest Mall by transit:  41 minutes

From Post Office site by transit:  8 minutes

 

Galleria (as a stand-in for the dozens of uptown destinations):

From Northwest Mall by car:  14 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  17 minutes

From Northwest Mall by transit:  29 minutes

From Post Office site by transit:  42 minutes

 

Greenway Plaza

From Northwest Mall by car:  17 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  14 minutes

From Northwest Mall by transit:  49 minutes

From Post Office site by transit:  45 minutes

 

NASA

From Northwest Mall by car:  47 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  38 minutes

From Northwest Mall by transit:  2 hours, 24 minutes

From Post Office site by transit:  1 hour, 52 minutes

 

Galveston

From Northwest Mall by car:  1 hr, 9 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  1 hr, 1 minute

 

Baytown

From Northwest Mall by car:  36 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  30 minutes

 

Katy

From Northwest Mall by car:  28 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  32 minutes

 

Kingwood

From Northwest Mall by car:  38 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  36 minutes

 

The Woodlands

From Northwest Mall by car:  35 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  33 minutes

 

Sugar Land

From Northwest Mall by car:  29 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  30 minutes

 

Pearland

From Northwest Mall by car:  39 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  31 minutes

 

Cypress

From Northwest Mall by car:  25 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  30 minutes

Edited September 2, 2015 by Houston19514

[cspwal]

Nice work! I assume it's with no traffic?

 

The transit section really highlights how much work there still is to do on our transit network.

 

For the more graphically inclined, I made charts.  The second one compares the two travel times - 50% of each would mean they take the same time, a smaller percentage for one or the other is an advantage for that one.

 

Travel Times by Christopher Hisle, on Flickr

[102IAHexpress]

I thought they want to build a HSR to connect Houston and Dallas? I think you all are trying reimagine it as HSR connecting Downtown Houston and Downtown Dallas. Which is not the same thing.

 

Lets say this actually gets privately funded. The investors are going to have to think outside the box to be profitable. Thinking inside the box (think Europe) will not work here, because well we are not Europe. We have cars. Lots of them. And assuming they want to be profit maximizes the best location for a station will be outside of downtown to the west. I kind of like the intersection of I-10 and 6-10 better (near the Ikea) but it's not my money and if the investors think they can maximize their profits at the NW mall location then who am I to disagree?

 

The whole point (I thought) is that they want to build something that will be less of a hassle then driving to the airport or less hectic than trying to enter/exit downtown in your car. Have yall seen Downtown during rush hour? It takes 10 minutes sometimes to cross two blocks. And this bus/rail connectivity of downtown, give me a break. How many people take the bus to Hobby or IAH (not employees of the airports but actual passengers)? How many business travelers have you seen on our light rail?

 

You all assume that everyone's final destination will be Downtown. Downtown is indeed a large employment center, but so is the Med Center, Galleria, Energy Corridor, etc.. The NW mall station proposal is more center(ish) to more people than downtown.

[Slick Vik]

Downtown is actually fairly easy to get in and out of once you learn the street grid. Also this grid makes it remarkably efficient to exit as well since there are so many roads that you can take to get out not just one.

That assumes there's a reasonable way to get HSR to Downtown without major disruption to the areas the rail transits inside the Loop. I am not convinced that's possible.

Give me a break nothing is going to convince you. The major disruption is the freight that's already there HSR is much less disruptive and quiet. All I hear from your neighbors is NIMBY ignorance and fear of the unknown.

[cspwal]

The issue is having to expand the right of way for 4 tracks east of the Heights Wal-Mart, or double stacking the tracks east of there (which would have to start much further west to avoid gradient issues)

[Houston19514]

I thought they want to build a HSR to connect Houston and Dallas? I think you all are trying reimagine it as HSR connecting Downtown Houston and Downtown Dallas. Which is not the same thing.

 

Lets say this actually gets privately funded. The investors are going to have to think outside the box to be profitable. Thinking inside the box (think Europe) will not work here, because well we are not Europe. We have cars. Lots of them. And assuming they want to be profit maximizes the best location for a station will be outside of downtown to the west. I kind of like the intersection of I-10 and 6-10 better (near the Ikea) but it's not my money and if the investors think they can maximize their profits at the NW mall location then who am I to disagree?

 

The whole point (I thought) is that they want to build something that will be less of a hassle then driving to the airport or less hectic than trying to enter/exit downtown in your car. Have yall seen Downtown during rush hour? It takes 10 minutes sometimes to cross two blocks. And this bus/rail connectivity of downtown, give me a break. How many people take the bus to Hobby or IAH (not employees of the airports but actual passengers)? How many business travelers have you seen on our light rail?

 

You all assume that everyone's final destination will be Downtown. Downtown is indeed a large employment center, but so is the Med Center, Galleria, Energy Corridor, etc.. The NW mall station proposal is more center(ish) to more people than downtown.

 

What are you talking about?  NO ONE is assuming everyone's final destination will be downtown.  See the above posts discussing at length the travel times to various non-downtown destinations. 

 

[Luminare]

Indeed, we need "proper road access".  

 

As you say, the Northwest Mall site is accessible from 290, 610 and 10.  The downtown site is just as easily accessible (arguably easier) from I-10, I-45, and I69/US59.  Perhaps you've noticed, Houston's freeway system radiates in all directions, with downtown at the the center of the system.  I'm not following your conclusion that, even though freeways feed into and out of downtown in all directions, somehow "as for destinations, it's terrible".  How is a downtown station terrible "as for destinations"?  And how is the Northwest Mall site better?

 

10,000 passengers a day?  That is not a large number to handle.  About 1/2 that number use Metro's Main Street Square station on an average day.  Look at the sites they are looking at in Dallas to get an idea of how much space they need.  The sites we are discussing downtown (either Hardy Yards area or (my preference) the Amtrak/Post Office site, have plenty of space.

 

Antagonistic grid streets?  I'm not sure where to start with that.  Maybe I'll let a traffic engineer address that silliness.

 

Here are some examples of travel to various destinations from the two sites, according to Google Maps:

 

Texas Medical Center:

From Northwest Mall by car:  25 Minutes

From Post Office site by car:  14 Minutes

From Northwest Mall by transit:  1 hour, 2 minute

From Post Office site by transit:  36 minutes

 

BG Group Place (as a stand-in for the hundreds of downtown destinations):

From Northwest Mall by car:  18 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  5 minutes

From Northwest Mall by transit:  41 minutes

From Post Office site by transit:  8 minutes

 

Galleria (as a stand-in for the dozens of uptown destinations):

From Northwest Mall by car:  14 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  17 minutes

From Northwest Mall by transit:  29 minutes

From Post Office site by transit:  42 minutes

 

Greenway Plaza

From Northwest Mall by car:  17 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  14 minutes

From Northwest Mall by transit:  49 minutes

From Post Office site by transit:  45 minutes

 

NASA

From Northwest Mall by car:  47 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  38 minutes

From Northwest Mall by transit:  2 hours, 24 minutes

From Post Office site by transit:  1 hour, 52 minutes

 

Galveston

From Northwest Mall by car:  1 hr, 9 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  1 hr, 1 minute

 

Baytown

From Northwest Mall by car:  36 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  30 minutes

 

Katy

From Northwest Mall by car:  28 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  32 minutes

 

Kingwood

From Northwest Mall by car:  38 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  36 minutes

 

The Woodlands

From Northwest Mall by car:  35 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  33 minutes

 

Sugar Land

From Northwest Mall by car:  29 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  30 minutes

 

Pearland

From Northwest Mall by car:  39 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  31 minutes

 

Cypress

From Northwest Mall by car:  25 minutes

From Post Office site by car:  30 minutes

 

He did the math! Ladies and Gentleman....The People's Champ!

[samagon]

now we need the other direction.

 

baytown to nw mall / downtown etc

 

[cspwal]

Across the world, the train stations are different location, and some have parking and some don't.  For big areas, there are multiple stops in the Metro area, and some even have a station co-located with the airport.

The California HSR is going to be using existing or new downtown stations

Florida's new passenger rail, http://www.allaboardflorida.com/ "the only privately owned, operated and maintained passenger rail system in the United States" will have 4 stations:

 - Downtown Miami

 - Downtown Fort Lauderdale

 - Downtown West Palm Beach

 - Orlando International Airport

 

Orlando's station is going to be a regional hub station.  This could be an example of what Houston could do, but it could also be an example what not to do.  The Florida rail project is further along, with the company closing on land for the stations and construction is underway with a target opening of 2017.  Hopefully TCR can see what works and doesn't for them.

 

 

Finally, I found a new use for the Astrodome - high speed rail station (this is Shanghai South Station)

Edited September 2, 2015 by cspwal

[Luminare]

Across the world, the train stations are different location, and some have parking and some don't.  For big areas, there are multiple stops in the Metro area, and some even have a station co-located with the airport.

The California HSR is going to be using existing or new downtown stations

Florida's new passenger rail, http://www.allaboardflorida.com/ "the only privately owned, operated and maintained passenger rail system in the United States" will have 4 stations:

 - Downtown Miami

 - Downtown Fort Lauderdale

 - Downtown West Palm Beach

 - Orlando International Airport

 

Orlando's station is going to be a regional hub station.  This could be an example of what Houston could do, but it could also be an example what not to do.  The Florida rail project is further along, with the company closing on land for the stations and construction is underway with a target opening of 2017.  Hopefully TCR can see what works and doesn't for them.

 

 

Finally, I found a new use for the Astrodome - high speed rail station (this is Shanghai South Station)

 

Astrodome is way to big, but finally someone who isn't afraid to think big! Keep it up.