Texas Central Project

[BigFootsSocks]

Fair enough, then it is my opinion that it would negatively impact the area.    

 

Relative to the potential I-10 alignment, i know they plan to replace the Yale bridge just south of I-10 in 2016, hopefully that work would take an HSR alignment into consideration if that does end up being a real possibility.

Yeah my bad, didn't mean to sound accusatory, I dislike those tracks as much as anyone else who has to drive over them, I just don't see the property value issue as being something that can legitimately dissuade TCR or the established rail companies from removing them. Which is unfortunate because they suck and I hate them. 

[Visitor]

Yeah my bad, didn't mean to sound accusatory, I dislike those tracks as much as anyone else who has to drive over them, I just don't see the property value issue as being something that can legitimately dissuade TCR or the established rail companies from removing them. Which is unfortunate because they suck and I hate them. 

 

All well and good.  I just find it hard to believe that  a structure the size of a freeway overpass would not have a negative impact on home value.  Most new homes are 3 stories tall and an elevated rail line would still tower over those to allow clearance for the underlying freight trains.  I also don't see any certain sign that it would induce further development along the corridor considering the HSR would not even stop along the way. 

 

I have a love/hate relationship with the UPRR right of way, on one hand i think it allows for easy expansion of a usable metrorail route or bike trail and lends something to the urban nature of the area.  On the other hand it creates a collecting place for trash, stops traffic far too often, and of course can be noisy. 

 

The bike path that they created through the heights on a old rail right of way would be pretty nice, but i still think a commuter line would net the best value add to the city and area. Perhaps below grade with street overpasses, pipe dreams....

[BigFootsSocks]

I do sort of agree with you, but my argument against (playing devils advocate here) is that the Washington corridor is quickly becoming a very popular bar/club night scene area. More development will only follow, which we can see in the new midrise mf projects going up on the far Western end. This area is becoming more and more urban, and it's hard, IMO, to argue that this area is quieting in anyway in the future. Property values are going to go up regardless of the rail or not; the inner loop is hot in activity right now.

Another important thing to note is that the trains will most definitely not be speeding by in this area; it's close to the homes and would require a slow speed, and it's so close to the downtown terminus there wouldn't be enough room to hit full speed.

[Visitor]

Certainly understand that line of thought. I guess the infrastructure is more of a concern than the actual rail is. If this we're a metro rail line coming through I'd probably be one of the happiest people, but having another train just cruise by on a huge concrete bridge really doesn't do much for the areas below.

I guess we will just keep waiting to see the final alignment.

[The Pragmatist]

Quickly thinking about the area, it seems that they could follow the embankments on I-10 to Heights Blvd, then head south in the wide median provided by Heights, turning east at the freight line and creating a shared use station where the current Amtrak station is. It looks as if that would avoid the bulk of the housing that sits near the freight line, as most of the area between Heights Blvd. and downtown is filled with warehouses along the tracks. I'm not sure how feasible this would be, but it was just a thought.

[mfastx]

There's no place downtown for a station, and no reasonable way to get there if there were a station location.

 

Burnett Plaza would be a decent location, direct connection to METRORail downtown is a plus, and you have some space for redevelopment and building parking facilities and such.  Since downtown is the largest employment center in the urban area, it's a good idea to make it as accessible as possible for intercity infrastructure. 

 

I recall during a TRC meeting they expected a good bulk of their ridership to have destinations in the Galleria and Energy Corridor. A terminus at NW Mall would provide more flexibility to transfer riders to any of the 3 most likely destinations.

 

Ideally you'd have two stops: 1 in/near downtown and 1 in/near uptown.  Works really well, see Boston's setup with Union Station and Back Bay. 

 

The 290 area spot would be a lot better if there was a high capacity transit connection, but that probably won't happen anytime soon. 

 

The line would get more ridership if there were good connections at it's destinations to get people where they want to go easily.  Otherwise, why not just fly?  The advantages of HSR are downtown to downtown service with easy connections to public transit. 

[cloud713]

Could they not trench the HSR line under the freight bridge for any additional clearance needed?

[BigFootsSocks]

That would definitely disrupt the rail lines already there...that would definitely be a much bigger headache than dealing with any rural opposition.

Amd then there's the major issue of flooding. There's hardly enough room for drainage, and getting HCFCD approval to drain that much land into White Oak or Buffalo Bayou would be a nightmare

[Slick Vik]

I do sort of agree with you, but my argument against (playing devils advocate here) is that the Washington corridor is quickly becoming a very popular bar/club night scene area. More development will only follow, which we can see in the new midrise mf projects going up on the far Western end. This area is becoming more and more urban, and it's hard, IMO, to argue that this area is quieting in anyway in the future. Property values are going to go up regardless of the rail or not; the inner loop is hot in activity right now.

Another important thing to note is that the trains will most definitely not be speeding by in this area; it's close to the homes and would require a slow speed, and it's so close to the downtown terminus there wouldn't be enough room to hit full speed.

Maybe 5 years ago. The popular clubs from that era are long shuttered. Washington is more of a restaurant place now. Midtown is where the nightlife is.

Also for all the criticism we've given rural landowners the local nimbys aren't much better. Everyone is looking out for their own self interest instead of the greater good. Hsr is much less disruptive than the current freight rails, has anyone here been to Japan besides me? Elevated rail isn't preferable but if it's the only method of getting downtown then make it happen. I wouldn't really call any part of Houston "desirable" other than in some people's heads it's a way to get away from low income minorities, so whatever.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Slick Vik

[cspwal]

I walked the length of the freight rail corridor along Washington (I was REALLY bored one day) and for most of the corridor, they actually have room for 4 tracks at grade.  They really wouldn't have to make the stacked tracks until it gets close in to downtown (around the Wal-Mart the way I judged it)

 

Would the HSR tracks require more space (width wise) than the freight tracks?

That being said, if I lived over there I would be upset with all trains considering how many at grade crossings there are.  TCR only needs to sell it as a way to eliminate all the at grade crossings (maybe 4 tracked elevated rail, built in phases to not disrupt freight traffic, but only at the level needed for cars/trucks to go under it) and downplay how big the elevated track is.

Edited August 27, 2015 by cspwal

[IronTiger]

If Allen Street was closed off entirely, which from what could I tell wouldn't eliminate access to homes or businesses (maybe a few "extended driveways" could be used) until Patterson (which is roughly at the Walmart), and that could be used for ROW of the HSR. Moreover, the closure of Allen Street (not be confused with Allen Parkway) would allow the extra space to build underpasses for existing crossings, as well as build noise-reducing walls. 

 

By the time we get to the Walmart, Washington Avenue is just two blocks away, so perhaps, and this is of course going to be expensive, if a "cap and cover" solution is built (with Washington Avenue's outer two most lanes operating) until the HSR is built. The HSR goes to the Amtrak station, and that's when things get awesome. The existing Amtrak station is torn down for a multi-level intermodal transit center. The light rail that currently terminates right below Memorial Parkway is extended slightly to this transit center, and the Greyhound bus station (which is WHY Main and Pierce is so iffy, during the day) relocates inside said transit center, which also has a parking garage.

[cspwal]

Now we just need to forward this to TCR and get it done

[MaxConcrete]

Many folks seem to think that the HSR needs to be connected into the transit system. From the business perspective, I think that's misguided and just plain wrong.

 

The main market will be business travelers. Business travelers don't use transit. They are on an expense account. At their originating end, they will be glad to drive and park since they will expense the parking fee. At the remote end, they take a taxi or rent a car.

The next market is leisure and personal travel, mainly catering to middle income, upper income and affluent folks. Going to the train station will be like going to the airport. Most people get a family member or a friend to provide airport dropoff and pickup. Other folks will drive and park, just like they do today.

Then there's the lower-income and economy crowd. Currently this is mostly served by MegaBus and Greyhound. Many of these folks who don't have family/friends available for dropoff will be interested in transit. But those travelers are not the main market for HSR. They will stick to the cheapest service, MegaBus and Greyhound.

Also keep in mind that people with anything more than minimal luggage prefer to avoid transit. Keep in mind this is not Europe. This is Houston.

So from the business perspective, the idea of transit connectivity is bad business. Eckels comments have been consistent with the idea that people will drive to the station. It will be most important for the station to be easily accessible via car, and also have thousands of parking spaces, preferably reasonably-priced. Is there sufficient space downtown for parking? The Dallas station site already has two currently-unused large parking garages left over from the demolished Reunion Arena.

The station site will also need to support the rental car agencies. From the perspective of easy access, providing ample parking at a reasonable price, and providing space for the rental agencies, the Northwest Mall site looks quite good.

 

I think there is also a desire to make the station site a major destination. For that objective, more available land is a big plus. The 16-acre downtown Post Office site is perhaps the only suitable downtown site with (maybe) enough space, but so far there is no indication if the recent buyer (Lovett Commercial) is working with HSR, or if Lovett has any interest in accommodating HSR.

HSR will make a business decision, not a political decision to support an urbanist's vision of transit connectivity. It appears that decision will be made once they get all the cost numbers and ridership/revenue numbers completed. The inner loop section of rail will probably cost around $1 billion, so it will need to be worth the price.

I think a Northwest Mall location makes a lot of sense, and would also make the entire conversation about the inner loop alignment moot. Of course, the track could always be extended into downtown in the future. I think ultimately that stations at downtown, Northwest Mall and the Grand Parkway could be desirable.

 

Edited August 28, 2015 by MaxConcrete

[Visitor]

I agree on your assessments and have heard TRC's preference is to not go downtown due to cost. There is a strong political push for a downtown terminus though.

Also, Houston still has it's back channel network of well connected individuals who can influence projects to suit their interests. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the true determining factor in all of this, and that will definitely be about money.

[mfastx]

Plenty of business travelers use transit when it is available and widespread.  The idea to connect it to the transit system comes from thinking about the future.  As the transit system expands over the next few decades people would look back and say what a mistake it was to not put the HSR station near transit. 

[mollusk]

My drivers license has never said anything other than "Houston" on it... shoot, I was practically born with car keys in my little bitty fist.  I like my wheel toys.  I willingly happily offer to drive on lengthy road trips.  I'm considering driving to California on vacation next month just for the giggles rather than flying.  And I travel on business (Hertz Gold since who knows when - there was a time when the desk staff at Love greeted me by name).

 

When on business (and yes, expensing every nickel), if I have the opportunity to get off of the train or plane and have some clean, reliable, comfy, prompt public rail transportation that gets me where I want to go, Hertz can keep their Nissan Altima Or Similar Standard Car - I'd just as soon take the train-let.  I find that I am rarely alone on that ride.  I still draw the line at busses, though - too many bad memories.

[BigFootsSocks]

Yeah, honestly I think that's a ridiculous assumption to assume it doesn't need to be connected to transit...in fact most of your post is built on your own assumption's. Why do Houston business people not take transit after arriving here? Well, probably because there isn't any, excluding the bus system.

 

It would be incredibly short-sighted if TCR didn't connect, or work out a deal to extend transit to their station's. 

 

I think you'll find that hardly anyone would agree with you on that statement.

[Visitor]

I do think the HSR should connect to mass transit. However in my opinion, a bus system does not really qualify. Here's how I see it from my perspective as a business traveler. Trains are more reliable and generally require far less effort to navigate than a bus system. I may be in the minority, but as a traveler I never take buses but will take advantage of train systems almost every time.

I just can't picture someone coming to Houston and me telling them, "oh yeah, just take the bus around"

Just my two cents.

[Naviguessor]

Come on, Max. To say that business travelers are all on expense accounts, implies that money is no object. Not at all true. Ask a small business owner. Given the option, they will take Transit if it is offered and convenient. Not to well connect any added transit options(HSR) to a growing transit system(Metro) would be utterly foolish.

[cspwal]

Also part of the idea of this train is so people can come down at the beginning of the work day and be back for dinner.  Renting a car does take time, time that could be saved with a good transit system.  And yeah no one takes transit when they fly to Houston - a bus from Hobby to downtown takes over an hour!  It travels the length of telephone road, stopping every half block.  

[Sparrow]

Max does have a good point that car access will be more important (at least at first) than transit. It does seem to make sense that a 290/10/610 area station would be faster and far cheaper to bring the HSR online and for a Downtown extension to be built once the concept is proven and profitable. A two or three station finished product for Houston would be desirable for the region.

 

As far as the 290/10/610 station location, let's not oversell the NW Mall plot of land. Why not use the land along Old Katy Road just north of the NW Transit Center along 610? The State already owns about 16 acres associated with ongoing construction and would likely be had by TCR for quite a fair deal. Such a location would also still preserve a future route to Downtown via the I-10 corridor. Freeway access would be phenomenal along Old Katy Road. A skywalk could provide pedestrian access to the transit center. There are many potential locations in the area, I don't think we should hang our hat on just one.

  

[BigFootsSocks]

I never thought of that TXDOT land but that's actually a really good idea. I assume that TCR will try to include some sort of mixed use into the station, so I'm not sure if that parcel has enough space for that.

[IronTiger]

It's true, they actually condemned more than they needed for a high capacity transit corridor...

[Slick Vik]

Many folks seem to think that the HSR needs to be connected into the transit system. From the business perspective, I think that's misguided and just plain wrong.

The main market will be business travelers. Business travelers don't use transit. They are on an expense account. At their originating end, they will be glad to drive and park since they will expense the parking fee. At the remote end, they take a taxi or rent a car.

The next market is leisure and personal travel, mainly catering to middle income, upper income and affluent folks. Going to the train station will be like going to the airport. Most people get a family member or a friend to provide airport dropoff and pickup. Other folks will drive and park, just like they do today.

Then there's the lower-income and economy crowd. Currently this is mostly served by MegaBus and Greyhound. Many of these folks who don't have family/friends available for dropoff will be interested in transit. But those travelers are not the main market for HSR. They will stick to the cheapest service, MegaBus and Greyhound.

Also keep in mind that people with anything more than minimal luggage prefer to avoid transit. Keep in mind this is not Europe. This is Houston.

So from the business perspective, the idea of transit connectivity is bad business. Eckels comments have been consistent with the idea that people will drive to the station. It will be most important for the station to be easily accessible via car, and also have thousands of parking spaces, preferably reasonably-priced. Is there sufficient space downtown for parking? The Dallas station site already has two currently-unused large parking garages left over from the demolished Reunion Arena.

The station site will also need to support the rental car agencies. From the perspective of easy access, providing ample parking at a reasonable price, and providing space for the rental agencies, the Northwest Mall site looks quite good.

I think there is also a desire to make the station site a major destination. For that objective, more available land is a big plus. The 16-acre downtown Post Office site is perhaps the only suitable downtown site with (maybe) enough space, but so far there is no indication if the recent buyer (Lovett Commercial) is working with HSR, or if Lovett has any interest in accommodating HSR.

HSR will make a business decision, not a political decision to support an urbanist's vision of transit connectivity. It appears that decision will be made once they get all the cost numbers and ridership/revenue numbers completed. The inner loop section of rail will probably cost around $1 billion, so it will need to be worth the price.

I think a Northwest Mall location makes a lot of sense, and would also make the entire conversation about the inner loop alignment moot. Of course, the track could always be extended into downtown in the future. I think ultimately that stations at downtown, Northwest Mall and the Grand Parkway could be desirable.

This is all extremely short sighted and a lot of unwarranted assumptions. First of all downtown is in the absolute center of the city; that speaks for itself. Secondly there are three train lines downtown now and as the system expands that will mean even more. If you go to any country with high speed rail, business travelers are not the only ones that use the service. Same goes with public transit. A good system brings everyone.

[Slick Vik]

Many folks seem to think that the HSR needs to be connected into the transit system. From the business perspective, I think that's misguided and just plain wrong.

The main market will be business travelers. Business travelers don't use transit. They are on an expense account. At their originating end, they will be glad to drive and park since they will expense the parking fee. At the remote end, they take a taxi or rent a car.

The next market is leisure and personal travel, mainly catering to middle income, upper income and affluent folks. Going to the train station will be like going to the airport. Most people get a family member or a friend to provide airport dropoff and pickup. Other folks will drive and park, just like they do today.

Then there's the lower-income and economy crowd. Currently this is mostly served by MegaBus and Greyhound. Many of these folks who don't have family/friends available for dropoff will be interested in transit. But those travelers are not the main market for HSR. They will stick to the cheapest service, MegaBus and Greyhound.

Also keep in mind that people with anything more than minimal luggage prefer to avoid transit. Keep in mind this is not Europe. This is Houston.

So from the business perspective, the idea of transit connectivity is bad business. Eckels comments have been consistent with the idea that people will drive to the station. It will be most important for the station to be easily accessible via car, and also have thousands of parking spaces, preferably reasonably-priced. Is there sufficient space downtown for parking? The Dallas station site already has two currently-unused large parking garages left over from the demolished Reunion Arena.

The station site will also need to support the rental car agencies. From the perspective of easy access, providing ample parking at a reasonable price, and providing space for the rental agencies, the Northwest Mall site looks quite good.

I think there is also a desire to make the station site a major destination. For that objective, more available land is a big plus. The 16-acre downtown Post Office site is perhaps the only suitable downtown site with (maybe) enough space, but so far there is no indication if the recent buyer (Lovett Commercial) is working with HSR, or if Lovett has any interest in accommodating HSR.

HSR will make a business decision, not a political decision to support an urbanist's vision of transit connectivity. It appears that decision will be made once they get all the cost numbers and ridership/revenue numbers completed. The inner loop section of rail will probably cost around $1 billion, so it will need to be worth the price.

I think a Northwest Mall location makes a lot of sense, and would also make the entire conversation about the inner loop alignment moot. Of course, the track could always be extended into downtown in the future. I think ultimately that stations at downtown, Northwest Mall and the Grand Parkway could be desirable.

This is all extremely short sighted and a lot of unwarranted assumptions, and frankly sounds like the perspective of a car-oriented person. First of all downtown is in the absolute center of the city; that speaks for itself. Secondly there are three train lines downtown now and as the system expands that will mean even more. If you go to any country with high speed rail, business travelers are not the only ones that use the service. Same goes with public transit. A good system brings everyone. Edited August 30, 2015 by Slick Vik

[Visitor]

I'd argue that downtown is not the center of the Houston area. This is based on my perspective of the majority of the population living west, south and north of the city. Sure there are loops that DT is the center of, but there is far less east of Houston.

Also, HSR in other countries does not typically enter metro centers but terminates outside city centers and uses local rail to connect. For example the Tokyo station is roughly 7 miles from downtown.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Visitor

[BigFootsSocks]

Yes but this city is trying its hardest, and arguably succeeding, at making downtown a true "downtown" for Houston. We can see this in the Downtown Living Intuitive, the immense construction occurring in and around the area, and the location of the main sports and entertainment venues. 

 

It would be dumb to not include a station here at somepoint.

[IronTiger]

Well, I am torn on thinking HSR should have a downtown station or not. On one hand, if HSR is indeed meant to compete with "local" airline traffic, an accessible location with generous parking should be a must, which is why the Northwest Mall site is a good choice. With rail eventually coming soon, it would be at least connected with transit, perhaps even some sort of rail-based transit line that parallels the "Washington Avenue" corridor railroad.

 

On the other hand, a cool "Grand Central Station" of sorts for Houston would be cool, integrating bus and a better position of light rail. The only problem access would be more limited, as enough cars pour into downtown as it is, and as things are, the only way to reasonably access it would be accessing it by exiting North Main and going south on Houston until Washington. That's until the proposed multi-billion project doesn't FUBAR the highway system.

 

But honestly, besides moving the Greyhound, honestly locating the station downtown seems more vanity than practicality. The Downtown area isn't the main "place to be", as I don't think even Dallas-Fort Worth has as many "employment islands" as Houston does, it's not the densest area anyway (I believe Gulfton is), and to be honest, the "sports venues" downtown are probably a bigger impediment to the "living downtown" craved, because their main purpose is to take up land otherwise unoccupied and to bring in weekend traffic (and money) to local businesses and hotels. Otherwise, they're structures that completely mess up the grid, noisy, huge visual blocks to the skyline, and sit unoccupied for a good part of the year.

[Sparrow]

I'd argue that downtown is not the center of the Houston area. This is based on my perspective of the majority of the population living west, south and north of the city. Sure there are loops that DT is the center of, but there is far less east of Houston.

Also, HSR in other countries does not typically enter metro centers but terminates outside city centers and uses local rail to connect. For example the Tokyo station is roughly 7 miles from downtown.

 

Wrong. The Shinkansen cuts right thru the heart of Tokyo.

[BigFootsSocks]

Well, I am torn on thinking HSR should have a downtown station or not. On one hand, if HSR is indeed meant to compete with "local" airline traffic, an accessible location with generous parking should be a must, which is why the Northwest Mall site is a good choice. With rail eventually coming soon, it would be at least connected with transit, perhaps even some sort of rail-based transit line that parallels the "Washington Avenue" corridor railroad.

On the other hand, a cool "Grand Central Station" of sorts for Houston would be cool, integrating bus and a better position of light rail. The only problem access would be more limited, as enough cars pour into downtown as it is, and as things are, the only way to reasonably access it would be accessing it by exiting North Main and going south on Houston until Washington. That's until the proposed multi-billion project doesn't FUBAR the highway system.

But honestly, besides moving the Greyhound, honestly locating the station downtown seems more vanity than practicality. The Downtown area isn't the main "place to be", as I don't think even Dallas-Fort Worth has as many "employment islands" as Houston does, it's not the densest area anyway (I believe Gulfton is), and to be honest, the "sports venues" downtown are probably a bigger impediment to the "living downtown" craved, because their main purpose is to take up land otherwise unoccupied and to bring in weekend traffic (and money) to local businesses and hotels. Otherwise, they're structures that completely mess up the grid, noisy, huge visual blocks to the skyline, and sit unoccupied for a good part of the year.

I do agree that currently, downtown is not at the point that would warrant a station itself, and maybe the stadiums where not the best example or thoroughly explained.

I meant that as in, City Officials are trying hard to make downtown the kind of area that's bigger than City Centre, Uptown, etc. to an extent, they're on the right path; there are numerous big ticket event places downtown. Sure, the stadiums are empty, but there's no shortage of Rangers, Mavericks, and FC Dallas games between our Houston teams. You could park at Anerican Airlines Center and make it to Toyota Center faster than it would take someone from Cypress or the Woodlands (ok that might be a bit of a stretch).

All I meant to say is that the potential for an emerging downtown warrants a future station. It remains to be seen when that future station could be implemented.