Should Houston have zoning?

[Slick Vik]

Sometimes I wonder at the total randomness of Houston and ponder if it would be a better idea if we had some sort of zoning laws in effect. Thoughts?

 

And please don't come in here with the "FREEDOM" arguments, because the city is restrictive in other ways, such as infamously putting mandatory minimum parking requirements for certain businesses.

[august948]

No. Houston is unique in this regard and should stay that way.

[Slick Vik]

No. Houston is unique in this regard and should stay that way.

 

Afghanistan and Somalia are unique in that they don't have functioning governments, should they stay that way as well?

[august948]

Afghanistan and Somalia are unique in that they don't have functioning governments, should they stay that way as well?

If that's what their residents choose to do there's not much anyone can do about. We have tried, remember?

As far as Houston goes, last time I checked we had a functioning government. No zoning is one of the things that makes Houston unique versus places like Portland where the government tries to micromanage development. And if that's what Portlanders want, more power to them. Houston has taken a different approach and I personally like it.

[RedScare]

No. I like our randomness. There are suburbs that have the order you seek. Feel free to move there.

[Ross]

No zoning. I would hate to have to deal with thousands of pages of zoning rules, plus the increase in corruption it brings.

[scarface]

I don't get it. Even if we did implement zoning now, that wouldn't change the developments and things that are already in place. So how would that change the uniqueness of the city that's already there?

 

With that being said, I would like the focus of developments to start resembling more of an urban style nature. I would also like to see better roads, cleaner-looking neighborhoods. So the answer is... Yes. I think its time Houston start thinking about zoning, but is it too late?

[livincinco]

I don't get it. Even if we did implement zoning now, that wouldn't change the developments and things that are already in place. So how would that change the uniqueness of the city that's already there?

With that being said, I would like the focus of developments to start resembling more of an urban style nature. I would also like to see better roads, cleaner-looking neighborhoods. So the answer is... Yes. I think its time Houston start thinking about zoning, but is it too late?

But isn't that focus towards urban style developments happening anyway because of market demand and existing city initiatives?

[kylejack]

Sometimes I wonder at the total randomness of Houston and ponder if it would be a better idea if we had some sort of zoning laws in effect. Thoughts?

 

And please don't come in here with the "FREEDOM" arguments, because the city is restrictive in other ways, such as infamously putting mandatory minimum parking requirements for certain businesses.

 

I disagree with both zoning and the parking requirements, so yeah, I'm going to come in here with the freedom arguments.

[samagon]

No. Houston is unique in this regard and should stay that way.

 

Afghanistan and Somalia are unique in that they don't have functioning governments, should they stay that way as well?

False equivalency isn't a valid rebuttal.

What's to be gained from zoning?

[RedScare]

OK, so it took this developer TWO YEARS to get Dallas to rezone this area so that they could potentially redevelop it...

 

http://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/27968-dallas-midtown/

 

...and some people think that would be a GOOD thing for Houston to have? In Houston, those same developers could have started redevelopment already.

 

 

[IHB2]

False equivalency isn't a valid rebuttal. What's to be gained from zoning?

 

that's the question. Houston is a rambunctious manufacturing town. a big part of its success has come from the fact that your cottage community may end up with a refinery in your backyards.

 

the imposition of the aesthetic opinions of one group of people at a given time through the promulgation of the kind of development regulations that zoning brings is a constraint on those who come after.

 

the dilapidated shotgun shacks owned by slumlords in the 4th Ward have been replaced by tract townhouses. some people think that is a very bad thing.

 

I'm guessing that zoning might have restricted the type of development that could have occurred in that "historic" neighborhood, and those shacks would still be there. other people would think that preserving a slum is stupid.

 

it's just aesthetics.

 

but the redevelopment of the 4th Ward greatly increased the tax base for that neighborhood, and all Houston taxpayers outside the 4th gained something from that.

[Houston19514]

I don't get it. Even if we did implement zoning now, that wouldn't change the developments and things that are already in place. So how would that change the uniqueness of the city that's already there?

 

With that being said, I would like the focus of developments to start resembling more of an urban style nature. I would also like to see better roads, cleaner-looking neighborhoods. So the answer is... Yes. I think its time Houston start thinking about zoning, but is it too late?

 

How would zoning provide better roads or cleaner-looking neighborhoods???

 

Even developments of an urban style nature have little to do with zoning.  In fact, such developments can be more difficult in a heavily-zoned city.  (And as others have already noted, are happening in our un-zoned city.)

[mfastx]

I don't think zoning is such a bad idea.  Having zoning throughout the last century would probably have resulted in more cohesive neighborhoods in Houston. 

 

I just wish that in the inner loop it was required for businesses to have storefronts right up on the street with parking in the back.  Would have done wonders for walkability.

[RedScare]

I don't think zoning is such a bad idea.  Having zoning throughout the last century would probably have resulted in more cohesive neighborhoods in Houston. 

 

I just wish that in the inner loop it was required for businesses to have storefronts right up on the street with parking in the back.  Would have done wonders for walkability.

 

Zoning does not require storefronts on streets. Houston has rules that address issues like that already. Most of those rules increase setbacks, however, rather than decrease them.

 

Now, could you give us some examples of neighborhoods lacking cohesion that occurred throughout the last century? Saying it doesn't make it true.

[livincinco]

I don't think zoning is such a bad idea. Having zoning throughout the last century would probably have resulted in more cohesive neighborhoods in Houston.

I just wish that in the inner loop it was required for businesses to have storefronts right up on the street with parking in the back. Would have done wonders for walkability.

Possibly, but don't forget that it wasn't too long ago that the prevailing opinion was that people wouldn't be willing to walk outside in Houston weather. That is finally breaking down, but I think that there would have been a real risk that developers would have walked away rather than comply with those kind of rules.

It's kind of a moot point anyway, because we can't go backwards. If the city is producing the kind of developments and environment that people are looking for, what is additional legislation going to provide?

The other point is that laws are great if they enforce the rules that you want, but not so nice if they don't. Mandatory parking spaces are a great example. Very similar to a zoning type of law, yet most everyone on this forum would be happy to see that repealed.

[mfastx]

Zoning does not require storefronts on streets. Houston has rules that address issues like that already. Most of those rules increase setbacks, however, rather than decrease them.

 

Now, could you give us some examples of neighborhoods lacking cohesion that occurred throughout the last century? Saying it doesn't make it true.

 

Yes, I realize that, I was saying in addition to zoning it would help. 

 

There are a lot of neighborhoods in the inner loop that come to mind that don't flow well.  For example look at Uptown and the Westheimer area.  Lots of luxury urban buildings next to run down crappy buildings, etc.  You see it all over Houston.  I'm not directly advocating for zoning, I understand the people voted against it and that's fine.  Houston is unique in that regard and I have no problem with it. 

 

Possibly, but don't forget that it wasn't too long ago that the prevailing opinion was that people wouldn't be willing to walk outside in Houston weather. That is finally breaking down, but I think that there would have been a real risk that developers would have walked away rather than comply with those kind of rules.

It's kind of a moot point anyway, because we can't go backwards. If the city is producing the kind of developments and environment that people are looking for, what is additional legislation going to provide?

The other point is that laws are great if they enforce the rules that you want, but not so nice if they don't. Mandatory parking spaces are a great example. Very similar to a zoning type of law, yet most everyone on this forum would be happy to see that repealed.

 

Great points.  Mandatory parking spaces are kind of silly, but as long as they put it behind the store and have a nice pedestrian friendly storefront it's fine.  Walking around in Boston I see great examples of that.  The storefront is right up on the street with loads of parking in the back.  Much better pedestrian experience IMO.

[RedScare]

Yes, I realize that, I was saying in addition to zoning it would help. 

 

There are a lot of neighborhoods in the inner loop that come to mind that don't flow well.  For example look at Uptown and the Westheimer area.  Lots of luxury urban buildings next to run down crappy buildings, etc.  You see it all over Houston.  I'm not directly advocating for zoning, I understand the people voted against it and that's fine.  Houston is unique in that regard and I have no problem with it. 

 

 

Great points.  Mandatory parking spaces are kind of silly, but as long as they put it behind the store and have a nice pedestrian friendly storefront it's fine.  Walking around in Boston I see great examples of that.  The storefront is right up on the street with loads of parking in the back.  Much better pedestrian experience IMO.

 

Your problem...and the problem of many posters on this forum...is that you do not understand what zoning is, or what it does. Equally important is that you do not understand what zoning does NOT do. Generally, zoning does not regulate building setbacks. It regulates land use. Zoning regulates where retail stores can be built. Building setbacks are generally regulated in other sections of the municipal codes.

 

What zoning does NOT do is regulate luxury buildings versus crappy run down buildings. If a lot is zoned for commercial, it is commercial, no matter how old and rundown the building is. You seem to think that zoning can allow the city to order crappy buildings to be demolished. It cannot.

[Texasota]

Ok hear me out:

 

Instead of zoning, why don't we have even fewer regulations. No minimum parking. No minimum setbacks. No minimum distances between churches and liquor stores. No damn noise ordinance. Keep some regulations for safety and ADA purposes (and fix the damn sidewalk rules) and *actually* let the market work. 

 

And also, no to zoning by use. Is there anything more antithetical to a vibrant, active neighborhood than regulating *where* specific use types can go? A walkable neighborhood *must* have all uses with close proximity, so you can walk to them.

 

That being said, there are zoning ordinances that include formal zoning rules; they regulate setbacks, footprints, glass-to-facade ratios etc. Strictly speaking, the only thing that makes zoning, zoning is that it separates the city into distinct zones that have different rules and requirements. Hell, Houston has some minimal amount of zoning already, we just dont call it that. Different rules for Downtown, historic districts, transit corridors: these are all watered-down, piecemeal chunks of what would, in other cities, be a larger set of zoning laws.

[mfastx]

Your problem...and the problem of many posters on this forum...is that you do not understand what zoning is, or what it does. Equally important is that you do not understand what zoning does NOT do. Generally, zoning does not regulate building setbacks. It regulates land use. Zoning regulates where retail stores can be built. Building setbacks are generally regulated in other sections of the municipal codes.

 

What zoning does NOT do is regulate luxury buildings versus crappy run down buildings. If a lot is zoned for commercial, it is commercial, no matter how old and rundown the building is. You seem to think that zoning can allow the city to order crappy buildings to be demolished. It cannot.

 

I understand what zoning does.  When I see a premier high rise residential building next to a gasoline station, that's something that arises due to lack of zoning.  Again, I understand that setbacks have nothing to do with zoning.  The extremely high minimum setback requirement is silly and I wish Houston didn't have it, and I know that zoning is a separate issue. 

 

I could have worded it better but I hope you get what I'm trying to say now.  Maybe there should be a separate setback thread. 

[samagon]

Ugh gas stations and zoning.

For this reason alone I never want to live in a city zoned. You have to drive 50 miles to get gas. I like being able to drive to any street corner and know I have 3 gas stations and a Starbucks to choose from.

[Texasota]

Not to butt in, but...

 

Is a premier high rise preferable to a gas station?

For the majority of people in the neighborhood, the highrise is, at most, decorative. Unless you actually live there you dont really interact with it at all.

 

A gas station though? Everyone uses a gas station. Even if you dont drive you might stop in for snacks or to use the atm.

[Houston19514]

I understand what zoning does.  When I see a premier high rise residential building next to a gasoline station, that's something that arises due to lack of zoning.  Again, I understand that setbacks have nothing to do with zoning.  The extremely high minimum setback requirement is silly and I wish Houston didn't have it, and I know that zoning is a separate issue. 

 

I could have worded it better but I hope you get what I'm trying to say now.  Maybe there should be a separate setback thread. 

 

Where have you seen a premier high rise residential building next to a gasoline station?  I cannot think of any...

 

But even if such exists in Houston, there are plenty of similar situations in zoned cities.

[mfastx]

I think people are reading too much into my comments.  I am not a strong advocate of zoning.  I've just noticed some awkward buildings in Houston that I don't see it other cities.  It really isn't a big deal, I shouldn't have commented I suppose.  Oh, and Red, actually setback laws can be included in zoning ordinances.  As well as restricting overhead power lines, sidewalks, heights of buildings, and even parking requirements.  So a lot of unsightly areas in Houston might have been improved by zoning if the law was applied correctly. 

 

Oh and Houston19514, here are a couple of examples of things I see in Houston but have yet to see in other cities that might be due to lack of zoning..

http://goo.gl/maps/h5uuY 

 

http://goo.gl/maps/hpClX 

 

http://goo.gl/maps/e3CCa 

 

If applied right, zoning can be a great tool to improve neighborhoods and cities.  Most people here seem vehemently opposed to zoning but I don't think it's horrible.  Maybe I've grown too accustomed to other cities, lol. 

[RedScare]

Oh, and Red, actually setback laws can be included in zoning ordinances.  As well as restricting overhead power lines, sidewalks, heights of buildings, and even parking requirements.  So a lot of unsightly areas in Houston might have been improved by zoning if the law was applied correctly. 

 

As well as outlawing high temperatures and humidity, I'm told. 

[august948]

Not to butt in, but...

 

Is a premier high rise preferable to a gas station?

For the majority of people in the neighborhood, the highrise is, at most, decorative. Unless you actually live there you dont really interact with it at all.

 

A gas station though? Everyone uses a gas station. Even if you dont drive you might stop in for snacks or to use the atm.

I bet it's mighty convenient for the folks in the highrise, too. "Out of beer? I'll be right back."

[Texasota]

Those examples are... not very extreme. I'm actually not sure what the first example is supposed to show.

 

Better examples:

 

http://goo.gl/Gv9Vo

http://goo.gl/Wwjlw

http://goo.gl/fHV7U

http://goo.gl/XA7vO

[Texasota]

As well as outlawing high temperatures and humidity, I'm told. 

 

Eh, this old argument. Heat and humidity don't mean we have to settle for sidewalks with random poles sticking out of the middle of them or strip malls in midtown. 

[Texasota]

I think people are reading too much into my comments.  I am not a strong advocate of zoning.  I've just noticed some awkward buildings in Houston that I don't see it other cities.  It really isn't a big deal, I shouldn't have commented I suppose.  Oh, and Red, actually setback laws can be included in zoning ordinances.  As well as restricting overhead power lines, sidewalks, heights of buildings, and even parking requirements.  So a lot of unsightly areas in Houston might have been improved by zoning if the law was applied correctly. 

 

Oh and Houston19514, here are a couple of examples of things I see in Houston but have yet to see in other cities that might be due to lack of zoning..

http://goo.gl/maps/h5uuY 

 

http://goo.gl/maps/hpClX 

 

http://goo.gl/maps/e3CCa 

 

If applied right, zoning can be a great tool to improve neighborhoods and cities.  Most people here seem vehemently opposed to zoning but I don't think it's horrible.  Maybe I've grown too accustomed to other cities, lol. 

 

"unsightly" areas of houston.

That sort of terminology always concerns me. I've been to plenty of neighborhoods that were pretty, stale and dead. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but this is my problem with grand sets of zoning rules: the idea that there is some ideal aesthetic that all cities should aspire to.

I'm all for regulations, as long as they're thoughtful, specifically targeted, and individually repealable if they prove damaging.

[august948]

Ugh gas stations and zoning.For this reason alone I never want to live in a city zoned. You have to drive 50 miles to get gas. I like being able to drive to any street corner and know I have 3 gas stations and a Starbucks to choose from.

I have to say, Starbucks is the one place that's in need of a little regulation (see Shepherd and West Gray).