METRORail Construction Drove Business Out Of Downtown

[312]

Prior to light-rail construction Downtown seemed "hotter than a two dollar pistol" to me. During light rail construction it seemed to drive and benefit business in Midtown and other areas. I have a feeling that as light rail expands into new areas of the city that downtown will perhaps have some of the same business driven back into the area that was driven out of the area during light rail construction. Are/Will businesses located in other areas of the city that are anticipating and preparing for the impact of light rail construction on their area consider moving/moving back into downtown as a good long term solution to the pending construction problems they might be facing?

[RedScare]

Wrong.

[TheNiche]

I'd say that that depends mostly on whether asking rents come back down to pre-2004 levels as the economy starts to recover.

[jfre81]

Since they are going about the construction of the new lines in a more incremental manner I don't think it will be as disruptive as the Red Line construction was. I do think that once the new lines open, it will bring more people into downtown, which will be good for business.

[musicman]

Since they are going about the construction of the new lines in a more incremental manner I don't think it will be as disruptive as the Red Line construction was.

i guess closing fulton isn't disruptive

[GovernorAggie]

Fulton's closure was a COH thing, not a METRO thing. Again, METRO discovered a pre-existing problem under Fulton's pavement, and COH came in and closed the street. I guess a school bus could've just fallen in later and we could've found out that way. There's a lot that METRO can be blamed for, but this isn't one of them. COH let Fulton deteriorate. If you'll notice--every street that was supposed to have a rail line on it has been allowed to go to crap by COH. It's almost like they figured that METRO was coming through one of these days anyway, so why do any improvements. See Dallas/Sampson/Scott in EaDo, Harrisburg, and North Main for example.

[totheskies]

Businesses (i.e. street level retail) are already "creeping back" into downtown because of increased interest and demand. I think the first rail lines will aid that process, but we may not see a total rejuvenation until the full system is completed and operational. Once that happens, downtown goes from being a stop on the rail system to being a hub of the system. I say a hub instead of the hub, b/c most of the traffic will be at Wheeler station as the Red Line and the U-line will be the most used. IMO, Lower Midtown will be the main focal point once the system is built, followed by downtown.

[samagon]

Businesses (i.e. street level retail) are already "creeping back" into downtown because of increased interest and demand. I think the first rail lines will aid that process, but we may not see a total rejuvenation until the full system is completed and operational. Once that happens, downtown goes from being a stop on the rail system to being a hub of the system. I say a hub instead of the hub, b/c most of the traffic will be at Wheeler station as the Red Line and the U-line will be the most used. IMO, Lower Midtown will be the main focal point once the system is built, followed by downtown.

Anywhere the different lines intersect will have the potential to draw business to the area, U-line will probably be the quickest to see passengers, and as such will see business spring up around the hub, but then the east side lines both meet with the red line

[Marksmu]

Prior to light-rail construction Downtown seemed "hotter than a two dollar pistol" to me. During light rail construction it seemed to drive and benefit business in Midtown and other areas. I have a feeling that as light rail expands into new areas of the city that downtown will perhaps have some of the same business driven back into the area that was driven out of the area during light rail construction. Are/Will businesses located in other areas of the city that are anticipating and preparing for the impact of light rail construction on their area consider moving/moving back into downtown as a good long term solution to the pending construction problems they might be facing?

Downtown has gone ghetto at night. It has nothing to do with the rail line at all. The downtown night scene is hip hop clubs, late night clubs, raves, etc...its not a scene that appeals to alot of people. There are still a couple just ordinary person bars left, but their popularity is also way down. I do not think it has to do with the rail as much as it has to do with the shifting popularity of the Houston nightlife scene.

I dont know the entire shift as I am too young for them all, but since I was old enough to drink it went from Downtown, to Midtown, and now its going from Midtown to Washington. Washington is now so congested at night you can barely drive down it. Its much worse than midtown ever was.

Long story short. I think its just the fickle nature of Houstons night life that killed down town.

[kylejack]

Downtown has gone ghetto at night. It has nothing to do with the rail line at all. The downtown night scene is hip hop clubs, late night clubs, raves, etc...its not a scene that appeals to alot of people.

No. There are no raves in downtown. You might cite Venue, Vault, Copacabana, Martell's and Shadow Bar as "hip hop clubs" or whatever, but I would counter with Shay McElroy's, Molly's, Dean's, Notsuoh, Flying Saucer, La Carafe, Warren's, State Bar, and Lone Star Salloon.

[312]

Businesses (i.e. street level retail) are already "creeping back" into downtown because of increased interest and demand. I think the first rail lines will aid that process, but we may not see a total rejuvenation until the full system is completed and operational. Once that happens, downtown goes from being a stop on the rail system to being a hub of the system. I say a hub instead of the hub, b/c most of the traffic will be at Wheeler station as the Red Line and the U-line will be the most used. IMO, Lower Midtown will be the main focal point once the system is built, followed by downtown.

Light rail construction seems like it took around 3 years to complete and then it seems that it took another 2 years or more for people to finally realize that it was completed, especially for those who didn't frequent the downtown area. I remember people mentioning light rail construction and the congestion it caused well after it was completed. So, I do agree that we probably have already noticed business creeping back into downtown, but think that during or shortly prior to expansion downtown might see a "spike" in activity from businesses potentially interested in the area as well.

[sevfiv]

The last few times I was downtown on a weekend night there were always tons of people around "Heat" and "Glo," but I wouldn't never venture to say that it contributed to the "hotness" of downtown...hell, it might have just been doormen staggering the intake to make the places look super popular.

There are the old downtown standards but I still wouldn't characterize them as adding to downtown's _____ (whatever you're trying to make it seem).

The actual construction of the rail kind of sucked but Main street hasn't been a big deal for decades and decades anyhow

[kylejack]

There was obviously something wrong with Glo's business plan, because weekends always featured dozens of people waiting in line and yet they still went out of business. Or maybe the landlord wanted to charge them an abusive rent or something.

[RedScare]

Lots of selective memory in this thread. Pre-rail construction, the downtown nightlife consisted of bars and restaurants along a 2 block stretch of Main Street, with a few bars down an occasional cross street. The scene appeared to be large, due to the fact that everyone converged on the area around Main and Preston. The number of bars and restaurants actually increased after the 2001 recession and through rail construction and the Super Bowl until it encompassed the blocks from 100 through 700 or 800. The sidewalks...and even Main Street itself...were full on weekends well into 2004. The difference is that, while the first bars, clubs and restaurants in 1999 and 2000 catered to the trendy 'see and be seen' crowd, the later generation was popularized by hip-hop and R&B devotees. It was a completely different crowd, but it was a larger crowd.

Here is a list compiled by a HAIFer way back in September/October 2004. This would be 9-10 months AFTER the light rail opened.

Downtown Destinations

Note the number of bars and restaurants in and around Main Street. How many were there prior to March 2001, when construction began?

[ricco67]

If downtown gets more popular, they're going to have to install one of these in several different parts of downtown.

[AtticaFlinch]

Downtown has gone ghetto at night. It has nothing to do with the rail line at all. The downtown night scene is hip hop clubs, late night clubs, raves, etc...its not a scene that appeals to alot of people. There are still a couple just ordinary person bars left, but their popularity is also way down. I do not think it has to do with the rail as much as it has to do with the shifting popularity of the Houston nightlife scene.

Please clarify the parts I've bolded. This comes across as a thinly-veiled racist rant, and I know that given your post history, you in no way want to be considered racist.

[Marksmu]

Please clarify the parts I've bolded. This comes across as a thinly-veiled racist rant, and I know that given your post history, you in no way want to be considered racist.

First I see no rant in anything I posted. I made an observation about downtown given my own experiences; whether or not you agree with me.

I define ghetto - as a generally sloppy thug like appearance. Baggy clothes, loud music blaring from your car, heavily tinted windows to the point you can not see in at all. Often profiled by police, accompanied by women who appear that they charge by the hour. Metal detectors at the entrance of the bar/club immediately make it ghetto.

I define an ordinary person bar as one that anybody can frequent. It is not dominated by any singular type of person, but is a melting pot made up primarily of what most would classify as white collar office jobs. Not necessarily high paying jobs, but jobs that require that you dress appropriately and not look and act like a fool. While plenty of ordinary people frequent clubs....I do not consider any clubs in my lists of ordinary places b/c most people grow out of clubs quite quickly.

Ordinary people places include the list posted earlier by Kylejack: Shay McElroy's, Molly's, Dean's, Notsuoh, Flying Saucer, La Carafe, Warren's, State Bar, and Lone Star Salloon.

Ive only been to Shays, Saucer, Mollys, State Bar, and Lone Star Salloon, but the last few times Ive been downtown these places have had significantly fewer people in them than when I used to frequent them in my younger days. Its my observation that people transitioned away from these downtown places when Midtown became more popular because there were fewer thugs, and there was more free parking in midtown.

It is an observation I have personally made about places that remain successful - they distance themselves from the places draw a more ghetto clientele. As a general rule if a group of girls without guys does not feel safe parking nearby and walking to your establishment, your establishment will not last long in Houston, or will be considered ghetto.

[kylejack]

The hip hop clubs you refer to have dress codes and baggy jeans (hell, jeans period) are not allowed. There are no clubs with metal detectors in downtown right now as far as I know since The Pink Monkey closed. I walk in downtown every night and always feel safe.

[Marksmu]

The hip hop clubs you refer to have dress codes and baggy jeans (hell, jeans period) are not allowed. There are no clubs with metal detectors in downtown right now as far as I know since The Pink Monkey closed. I walk in downtown every night and always feel safe.

Just guessing by the screen name, but you are a guy. Girls are, and should be more cautious than men when walking at night.

Drive by the large parking garage over near that after hours club...I dont know the name, but you go underground (went once about 8 years) - tell me that is not ghetto. I was down in that area 2 weekends ago and there were ghettos cars and people walking everywhere. Possibly the reason it looks so bad is because the clubs turn away those thug looking folks, and so they just stay on the street. Maybe its not so bad inside. I dont know - I have never ventured in.

(garage is near that big Chinese food restaurant I cant remember either)

[kylejack]

Here ? If that's where you're referring to, that's Pink Monkey (previously Rehab, previously Power Tools, etc.) . It was indeed a raucous place and it was shut down after a really crazy night 2 years ago: http://www.chron.com...nt/5787545.html

[Random]

Just guessing by the screen name, but you are a guy. Girls are, and should be more cautious than men when walking at night.

Drive by the large parking garage over near that after hours club...I dont know the name, but you go underground (went once about 8 years) - tell me that is not ghetto. I was down in that area 2 weekends ago and there were ghettos cars and people walking everywhere. Possibly the reason it looks so bad is because the clubs turn away those thug looking folks, and so they just stay on the street. Maybe its not so bad inside. I dont know - I have never ventured in.

(garage is near that big Chinese food restaurant I cant remember either)

You do realize that the "thug" and "ghetto" people you are referring to are typically just middle to upper middle class African Americans, quite a few of who have ordinary jobs and families? They just happen to have a different style of dress and taste in music. You know, the reason many in the black community are put off by the thug or ghetto label is that all to often it is used to describe things that are merely, well, black.

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to go to those places. Hell, I wouldn't, but that's because it ain't my scene - no different than why I don't go to Wild West. My advice would be don't demean a culture because you don't understand it.

[AtticaFlinch]

Ordinary people places include the list posted earlier by Kylejack: Shay McElroy's, Molly's, Dean's, Notsuoh, Flying Saucer, La Carafe, Warren's, State Bar, and Lone Star Salloon.

Ordinary places fer real Americans.

You walk a fine line, Marksmu. I think what you meant to say, and would have said if you'd taken a second and considered the way you were saying it, is that you'd prefer a wider variety of places that appeal to either a broader demographic or at least the demographic in which you fit than Downtown's current crop of nightspots.

[Marksmu]

Ordinary places fer real Americans.

You walk a fine line, Marksmu. I think what you meant to say, and would have said if you'd taken a second and considered the way you were saying it, is that you'd prefer a wider variety of places that appeal to either a broader demographic or at least the demographic in which you fit than Downtown's current crop of nightspots.

I do not trouble myself trying to be politically correct. Political correctness is destroying this country, not making it better. I call it like I see it. Baggy clothes, and hip hop may not be thug to those who enjoy it, but I would bet that a large majority of Americans would agree with me when identifying it as such. Do a simple google or bing Image search for the word "Thug"

I dont have to defend my use of the word, when thugs use it to describe themselves. They are proud of it, they put it on cd covers, they tattoo it all over themselves. I dont apologize for using it correctly, even if it is not necessarily PC.

Attica, you are correct about the places I prefer. I like places that cater to a much larger demographic group. Most of the places I walk into on a weekend for a drink, are quite diverse ethnically speaking, though they all share three things in common. 1) Its not so loud that I cant talk; 2) We can sit down 3) We don't stand in line to get in. If it meets those three requirements I usually will go anywhere. It is also a big plus if it has plenty of parking. Though now-a-days it seems trendy to not have much parking...that way you always look busy.

[Random]

I do not trouble myself trying to be politically correct. Political correctness is destroying this country, not making it better. I call it like I see it. Baggy clothes, and hip hop may not be thug to those who enjoy it, but I would bet that a large majority of Americans would agree with me when identifying it as such. Do a simple google or bing Image search for the word "Thug"

I dont have to defend my use of the word, when thugs use it to describe themselves. They are proud of it, they put it on cd covers, they tattoo it all over themselves. I dont apologize for using it correctly, even if it is not necessarily PC.

lucky for you African Americans are not the majority of Americans. And the difference between you use of the word thug and "their" use is that you use it in a negative way. Do a simple google search of the n-word and see what comes up, if that's your standard for acceptability.

[AtticaFlinch]

I do not trouble myself trying to be politically correct. Political correctness is destroying this country, not making it better. I call it like I see it.

If you considered yourself a real Texan, you'd know being polite and being politically correct ain't used interchangeably. There's a way to say things wrong and there's a way to say things right. You chose the wrong way. I don't think you did it intentionally, but to continue to defend your poor word choice is baffling to me. Just say "oops" and move on.

[TheNiche]

I do not trouble myself trying to be politically correct.

Yeah you do. For your convenience, I've translated your PC-ridden rant into something intelligible. See below.

I define ghetto - as a generally sloppy thug like appearance. Baggy clothes, loud music blaring from your car, heavily tinted windows to the point you can not see in at all. Often profiled by police, accompanied by women who appear that they charge by the hour.

A ghetto is a neighborhood, not a person.

You're obviously describing nigg*rs. Just come out and say what you're already thinking.

I define an ordinary person honky bar as one that anybody except nigg*rs can frequent. It is not dominated by any singular type of person, but is a melting pot made up primarily of what most would classify as white collar office jobs white people. Not necessarily high paying jobs people with pale skin, but jobs people that have assimilated into white culture that require that you who are required to dress appropriately like white people and not look and act like a fool nigg*r. While plenty of ordinary people honkies frequent clubs....I do not consider any clubs in my lists of ordinary honky places b/c most people grow out of clubs quite quickly.

Ordinary people Honky places include the list posted earlier by Kylejack: Shay McElroy's, Molly's, Dean's, Notsuoh, Flying Saucer, La Carafe, Warren's, State Bar, and Lone Star Salloon.

...

Its my observation that people honkies transitioned away from these downtown places when Midtown became more popular because there were fewer thugs nigg*rs, and there was more free parking in midtown.

It is an observation I have personally made about honky places that remain successful - they distance themselves from the places draw a more ghetto clientelenigg*rs. As a general rule if a group of girls without guys does not feel safe parking nearby and walking to your establishment, your establishment will not last long in Houston, or will be considered ghetto to perpetuate nigg*r-like behavior.

Add to your calculus that rents went up to the point that many lower-volume "ordinary person" bars couldn't make it, and I have to agree with you. The presence of nigg*rs scares off honkies, especially pussified white males with penis envy and/or white guilt. It's white flight, plain and simple.

[RedScare]

Pretty much the way I read it.

[jfre81]

If I crank some Iron Maiden or Pantera as loud as I can and bang my head while I'm rolling down the road, am I being "ghetto?" I'm white, by the way.

The implied racism could be cut with a fork.

Anyway, yeah, let's not try to act like Main Street was some super happening place before rail and rail is what killed it. It has potential, and it hasn't reached it yet. Not even close.

[TheNiche]

If I crank some Iron Maiden or Pantera as loud as I can and bang my head while I'm rolling down the road, am I being "ghetto?" I'm white, by the way.

No. That makes you a fag. Nigg*rs, wiggers, white trash, douchebags, and fans of the "hardcore" music scene are all a subset of general faggotry, however each subculture is mutually exclusive of the others.

[ricco67]

No. That makes you a fag. Nigg*rs, wiggers, white trash, douchebags, and fans of the "hardcore" music scene are all a subset of general faggotry, however each subculture is mutually exclusive of the others.

Awesome.

One of the best responses. Ever.

+5