2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)

[TheNiche]

He said, in his speech, he was all for the second amendment, and keeping AK-47's out the hands of criminals. Do you have a problem with that? Guns for everybody! That's the answer.

The Second Amendment was not designed to protect the rights of people to hunt, which is what Obama mentioned an exception for (playing to the populist crowd, obviously). It was designed to be the ultimate check on government. AK-47s and other firearms considered to be 'assault weapons' are critical to ensuring its relevence.

You'd trade war, excessive spending - and driving our economy straight into the ground - to keep a Republican neocon in office (out of fear of a Democrat). Did free trade stop under Bill Clinton? NO. Jimmy Carter? NO. Johnson? NO... and on and on...

EDIT: I'd go even further with Bill Clinton... conferred/recognized MFN status on the Communist Chinese... there's your free trade!!! Actually did a lot of crap I don't agree with... but that's for later discussion...

Socialism because he's talking about all sorts of ways to redistribute wealth from those who earned it to those who have not. Whether in the form of retirement programs, socialized healthcare, or progressive tax brackets.

Btw, what the hell is a kind of argument that people are supposed to be entitled to retire on some particular year? That's ridiculous. If circumstances don't permit it, too bad. And if they allow you to retire early, terrific!

You'd trade war, excessive spending - and driving our economy straight into the ground - to keep a Republican neocon in office (out of fear of a Democrat). Did free trade stop under Bill Clinton? NO. Jimmy Carter? NO. Johnson? NO... and on and on...

EDIT: I'd go even further with Bill Clinton... conferred/recognized MFN status on the Communist Chinese... there's your free trade!!! Actually did a lot of crap I don't agree with... but that's for later discussion...

Who's talking about political parties!? Bill Clinton did a lot of great things to advance a policy of free trade. Good for him! It sounded to me like Obama would take a step backwards from the Clinton administration.

[westguy76]

This reinforces my belief that the Republicans have already written off this election and are rebuilding behind the scenes for their next shot. (As is Hilary) The official party platform is squarely at odds with McCain on key issues. They're just holding their noses and waiting for the stinky cloud to pass.

This is a silly presumption

Barrack Obama was just as much an unknown on the national scene not that long ago.

I am overjoyed that it is not Romney and is a fresh younger face to go with the old man into battle.

I have to admit that she is easy on the eyes.

[lockmat]

This is a silly presumption

Barrack Obama was just as much an unknown on the national scene not that long ago.

I am overjoyed that it is not Romney and is a fresh younger face to go with the old man into battle.

I have to admit that she is easy on the eyes.

Sounds like a woman of her word...

Palin kept her campaign promises, reducing her own salary, as well as reducing property taxes by 60%

Highlights of Governor Palin's tenure include a successful push for an ethics bill, and also shelving pork-barrel projects supported by fellow Republicans. Palin successfully killed the Bridge to Nowhere project that had become a nationwide symbol of wasteful earmark spending.^[10][17] "Alaska needs to be self-sufficient, she says, instead of relying heavily on 'federal dollars,' as the state does today."^[1

In the first days of her administration, Palin followed through on a campaign promise to sell the Westwind II jet purchased (on a state government credit account) by the Murkowski administration. The state placed the jet for sale on eBay three times. In August 2007, the jet was sold for $2.7 million.^[41]

I like her a lot so far!

[TheNiche]

I fear people who think like you. To prefer ACTUAL war, terror, and violence over your overactive imagination is pretty damned scary. Luckily, most who read your post find your belief system to be so far out of the mainstream that your putting your fear in italics means little or nothing. One would think that someone as pedantic as you would understand that the US is already socialist, though to a lesser degree than Canada or the UK, but I guess since you are trying to scare people into voting for McCain, you feel the need to mislead.

No problem. I'll be here to point out your hyperbole and misstatements.

Socialism and Capitalism are places on the extremes of a sliding scale. America is in the middle; America is not Socialist; America is not Capitalist. Obama's policies move us toward Socialism.

I prefer an outright cost, a burden, to the outright destruction of economic opportunity in the name of morality.

[TheNiche]

I'm assuming you mean wars that don't kill TheNiche, right? Otherwise you wouldn't "endure" them. You're willing to put up with the inconvenience of people in distant lands being killed to maintain your fantasy of an invisible hand guiding the price of pork belly futures. I'm sure some of them are OK with you being killed to maintain their fantasies, too, so I guess it all evens out.

Still makes me sick.

Violence, whether in the streets or on the opposite side of the world, is preferable to the destruction of opportunity. If not for the opportunity to advance myself as I see fit, my life has no value--zero--I am worthless. If the elevated probability of a violent end must be factored into the calculus, I welcome it.

Incidentally, though, the neocon wars really are pinpricks upon our economy as compared to numerous other wars that the United States has engaged in.

[TJones]

I like the fact that Palin sold the state's new jet, that the previous Incumbant Gov. she beat, on Ebay, and for a profit. She sold it, because she felt her state didn't need it, and she was right. She is young with 5 kids tuggin' at her apron strings, I see that as a distraction from her role. God Bless her oldest son though, he just joined the military and will be going to Iraq to continue the good fight.

[memebag]

Violence, whether in the streets or on the opposite side of the world, is preferable to the destruction of opportunity. If not for the opportunity to advance myself as I see fit, my life has no value--zero--I am worthless. If the elevated probability of a violent end must be factored into the calculus, I welcome it.

Incidentally, though, the neocon wars really are pinpricks upon our economy as compared to numerous other wars that the United States has engaged in.

Those are really easy words for someone who isn't getting shot at.

[sarahiki]

Well, I thought Obama would give McCain a real race for the White House. I wasn't aware that McCain was gonna just GIVE IT AWAY to the Dems. WTH ??? Alaskan Gov. Palin is the GOP's pick ? Good Night Irene !!! OBAMA '08 it is I guess.

Just curious... why do you see it that way? Can you elaborate? I don't know anything about her.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Anyone who thinks that the Republicans have thrown in the towel because of this move by McCain, truly has no clue the huge political move this actually is. There are Hillary supporters that have already said they'll vote against Obama, because of their blind fury to try and get a woman up to the next level, no matter who she is. This makes the medicine so much easier to swallow for that group. There are those fence straddlers that don't know which way to turn, and were being lured by nothing more than their chance to be involved in the historic moment that Obama is making, now they have another choice. One way or another, we will have either our first black president, or our first female vice president.

Also McCain has been talking "change" as well but really has shown very little, this is a definite sign of change, no matter if it's just a little. It's his way of showing a sign of diversity, this was very thought out, and kept so secret, so that Obama's 20 minute ridicule of McCain as being the same ole good ole boy speech and the latest series of commercials, look a little less damaging now that he has made a move to put a female in the second highest office in the nation, and she makes a great argument of her own as being a tough gal, who'll not take any crap from Pelosi, and slap her down, and not come off as a bully picking on the woman in the house. You want to fight a Sociopathic broad, that's a loose cannon, and not come off looking like a bully. Hire a tough gal to take her on, and do it for you. You want to pick up some extra votes from the die hard women activists that want a woman to take the next step no matter what. Do exactly what he did, pick a female running mate. This isn't no Geraldine Ferraro, still trying to pull herself out of a bottle of scotch, this gal has got her act together. Don't sell her short.

The next couple of months will be interesting to watch. If you don't like either of the choices, don't vote. But don't come here bitchin' when something doesn't go your way. If you don't vote, you have no right to gripe. No politician is great, some are a little better than others, but at least as citizens of this GREAT country, we have the right to choose. You think it's bad here, just wait until they try and vote Hugo out down south, you are going to see a coup de gras unseen in many years, since the rise of Fidel Castro. Kiss the ground you walk on and be proud of the life we have, whether you are a Democrat or Republican, it's great to be an American period. [soapbox down]

[lockmat]

Just curious... why do you see it that way? Can you elaborate? I don't know anything about her.

cuz she's an unknown women from Alaska?

I think republicans are really gonna like her once they get to know her. Just a hunch though.

[ssullivan]

Violence, whether in the streets or on the opposite side of the world, is preferable to the destruction of opportunity. If not for the opportunity to advance myself as I see fit, my life has no value--zero--I am worthless. If the elevated probability of a violent end must be factored into the calculus, I welcome it.

Incidentally, though, the neocon wars really are pinpricks upon our economy as compared to numerous other wars that the United States has engaged in.

Hmm, did we watch the same speech last night? Because the one I saw was about returning this nation to one of prosperity and peace. We certainly aren't in a time of peace now, and for most of the country, prosperity was tossed out in the trash sometime around 2001.

I'm all for advancement and opportunity. But the administration of the last 8 years has resulted in fewer opportunities for both for many, if not most, Americans.

[westguy76]

Those are really easy words for someone who isn't getting shot at.

Voulentarily

[Mark F. Barnes]

Talk about blocking the post Convention bounce, this was one of the great blocks since Bird intercepted the inbound pass versus the Lakers in game 5.

[KinkaidAlum]

This kind of logic makes me think that some might have opposed the American Revolutionary War had they been there because it would have cost too much money and it instead could have been spent somewhere else.

Or that b/c it would have cost too much we shouldn't have retaliated in WWII.

If all the Republicans have now is to try and compare the Iraqi War with the American Revolution and World War II than things must really SUCK for them.

That is pathetic.

[crunchtastic]

Socialism because he's talking about all sorts of ways to redistribute wealth from those who earned it to those who have not. Whether in the form of retirement programs, socialized healthcare, or progressive tax brackets.

Let's talk aobut what 'wealth' is. Most of the individual wealth in this country is not earned. Is it passively generated investment income and inherited property. You would deny a tax-paying wage earner healthcare or an income in old age, because he has not 'earned' wealth, merely worked for a wage? He is to be punished because his wage is not sufficient to pay for the luxury of medicine? Even your most hardened Freidman neocon would say 'no, that's not acceptable.'

The 'evil socialist' argument paints a picture where the undeserving and immoral rabble is getting something for nothing, and the hard working generators of 'wealth' are being robbed. It is essentially a moral argument. On the flip side, the wealthy landowner who inherited the ranch, or estate, has no more legitimate moral claim to that land than the man who tends it for a wage. People get all crazy with calling names, socialist, communist, liberal, but I would argue the ethos that defines America is, at its heart, moral. And more than a little socialist.

And this is precisley why the free market is a mostly untested theory -- and will remain so --because our puritanical roots lead us to view ownership as a moral imperative and not merely a legality or a means to an end. The free market cannot overcome the pyschology, so to speak. So, we are back to finding another solution. And all solutions to reform tax code or fix health care will have to redistribute money.

[TheNiche]

Those are really easy words for someone who isn't getting shot at.

The way I see it, either I have the opportunity to make something of myself that is worth losing or, lacking opportunity, I am worthless. If I am worthless then life would be as much a non-event as death.

I'll take my chances.

[memebag]

And this is precisley why the free market is a mostly untested theory -- and will remain so --because our puritanical roots lead us to view ownership as a moral imperative and not merely a legality or a means to an end. The free market cannot overcome the pyschology, so to speak. So, we are back to finding another solution. And all solutions to reform tax code or fix health care will have to redistribute money.

Yeah!

TheNiche's "free market" is as imaginary as Osama Bin Laden's Allah. Killing in the name of either one is equally reprehensible.

[westguy]

Aren't Hillary supporters pro-choice? They make up the side of the party that's so alarmist in every election about the possibility of overturning Roe vs. Wade.

And why is she dressed up like her high school yearbook photo?

[crunchtastic]

Sounds like a woman of her word...

I like her a lot so far!

Know anything about Alaska? There was no economic risk in any of those actions. Alaska has so much cash coming in right now on its leases, she could afford to cut property taxes and still fund the state house. McCain is going to count on the rest of America not knowing that either.

It's easy to look like the political good guy in a state where your senior senator is under indictment.

[memebag]

The way I see it, either I have the opportunity to make something of myself that is worth losing or, lacking opportunity, I am worthless. If I am worthless then life would be as much a non-event as death.

I'll take my chances.

The way I see it, neither socialism nor Barack Obama threaten your opportunity to make something of yourself. If you want to make something of yourself you will.

[TJones]

Just curious... why do you see it that way? Can you elaborate? I don't know anything about her.

Here is one reason. I would find it much more important to tend to the needs of my 4 month old Down Syndrome child, over trying to help run the country.I would think that running a state would be hard enough at this point, let alone be the number two spot of America. I feel she is putting her political aspirations ahead of her family, and THAT I don't like.

[westguy76]

The way I see it, neither socialism nor Barack Obama threaten your opportunity to make something of yourself. If you want to make something of yourself you will.

Than why all this complaining about the economy and housing crunch.

I am prospering out of my own free will and desire to work. To hell with the rest of them if they can't keep up.

[TJones]

Know anything about Alaska? There was no economic risk in any of those actions. Alaska has so much cash coming in right now on its leases, she could afford to cut property taxes and still fund the state house. McCain is going to count on the rest of America not knowing that either.

It's easy to look like the political good guy in a state where your senior senator is under indictment.

Did you know she is the reason WHY the state is so well funded now. She popped the oil industry fro a big tax hike. Sounds like somethig right out of the Obama camp playbook. You should embrace her Crunch.

Than why all this complaining about the economy and housing crunch.

I am prospering out of my own free will and desire to work. To hell with the rest of them if they can't keep up.

I just saw the weather report. Hell is at a balmy 32*F because westguy and I just agreed on something.

[westguy]

I just saw the weather report. Hell is at a balmy 32*F because westguy and I just agreed on something.

Close username, and even a Lost avatar. I'm pretty sure you guys agree on a lot.

[sarahiki]

Here is one reason. I would find it much more important to tend to the needs of my 4 month old Down Syndrome child, over trying to help run the country.I would think that running a state would be hard enough at this point, let alone be the number two spot of America. I feel she is putting her political aspirations ahead of her family, and THAT I don't like.

I'm not going to judge her for her choices since I'm certain she knows better than me what her family needs.

However, I will say from experience that it is very tough to balance work and young children, and would be even tougher with a special needs child. So I agree with you in that sense. But if someone were to start saying that a woman SHOULDN'T have a particular job because of her family situation, that would be discrimination. We don't judge men's fitness to work based on their kids' needs, and we shouldn't for women.

At the very least, this choice should start some interesting discussions of issues like this one, and that's a good thing.

[HoustonMidtown]

Seeing how McCain is no spring chicken - would we want her as president if he died?

[HtownWxBoy]

Wow how things have changed... in this election we have blacks, whites, the old, the young, men, a woman.... usually it's just 2 old white guys vs. 2 old white guys! Go America!

[TJones]

Seeing how McCain is no spring chicken - would we want her as president if he died?

Exactly, I see her with about as much experience in politics as Obama. See ya in 4 years.

[Jeebus]

Socialism because he's talking about all sorts of ways to redistribute wealth from those who earned it to those who have not. Whether in the form of retirement programs, socialized healthcare, or progressive tax brackets.

This is why I can't vote Democrat. I, for the life of me, don't understand why my tax dollars should go to those who won't work for themselves? And no, I'm not talking about children, senior citizens, or those who can't help themselves. You all know very well the type of people on the government teet that are just praying for Obama to get in office and increase those free checks.

I'm not going to be very motivated to work if I know that I can just get a free check for just a few thousand less every year. I know many on the border of the "lower" and "middle" class feel the same. Right now we're top heavy, so its no issue to tax away. What are we going to do when we wake up one day and realize there's no one left to work, because we all decided to scale down our lifestyles and live for free?

Barrack Obama was just as much an unknown on the national scene not that long ago.

Obama has been on the scene since 2004. That's a good head start on Palin.

TJ: You're all over the place:

Well, I thought Obama would give McCain a real race for the White House. I wasn't aware that McCain was gonna just GIVE IT AWAY to the Dems. WTH ??? Alaskan Gov. Palin is the GOP's pick ? Good Night Irene !!! OBAMA '08 it is I guess.

I like the fact that Palin sold the state's new jet, that the previous Incumbant Gov. she beat, on Ebay, and for a profit. She sold it, because she felt her state didn't need it, and she was right. She is young with 5 kids tuggin' at her apron strings, I see that as a distraction from her role. God Bless her oldest son though, he just joined the military and will be going to Iraq to continue the good fight.

Slow down so you can form a solid opinion already. It's only been a few hours..

[wernicke]

Wow. McCain's pick is borderline bizarre.

Former mayor of town of 2K, govenor of Alaska (total pop. 680,000!!!!) for less than 2 years, former beauty queen, mother of 5 (and as an conservative Christian is against birth control, so could get pregnant again possibly ) who is a 72-year-old man with a history of recurrent melanoma step away from being President of the United States!

What percentage of the US population is comfortable with this?

I am not.