Kingwood Complaints

[TheNiche]

Again you misunderstand. I was arguing only for the discussion to continue, not necessarily that you participate in it. If you decided that you wanted to participate in this discussion, then you shouldn't claim that it was because I changed your mind by suggesting that it was being presented to a different/new audience. That's bogus. You decided to participate because you can't stand not holding forth in most HAIF discussions. It has nothing to do with your having been convinced by my reasoning and everything to do with your own need to weigh in on almost every discussion..

I understand that you were arguing for the discussion to continue, and whereas I was at first holding back, your reasoning convinced me that it was worthy. ...and so I only then held forth. If I were intent on holding forth at every opportunity, I'd have done it in the first place without your intervention.

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me whether you participate in any particular HAIF discussion since your contributions aren't necessary for me to be interested in the conversations. You need to get over yourself..

You can always switch me over to 'ignore'. I don't mind.

As to your claim that you have already participated in the discussion, I disagree. A person who is serious about participating in the discussion, finds the appropriate place in the thread and enters the conversation at that point, not in the manner in which you chose to enter this one.

Call it a preemptive strike. What was said was going to be said, whether it be in the middle of the night or at lunchtime later today. ...and now, there is fodder for a rebuttal. Your discussion is pre-destined. And you're welcome. ...that is, if our senseless bickering doesn't get all of our exchanges deleted by a moderator first.

[RedScare]

While you are free to participate or not, Niche, you could at least stay marginally on topic. No one is advocating the destruction of the suburbs. The topic was the opinion that all of Kingwood's perceived woes are directly the result of the City of Houston's annexation in 1996. I have yet to see a post that actually addresses that. I have seen many that stated conclusions without any data to back it up, though. In fact, many of the conclusions are flat out wrong. It has already been pointed out that METRO does not serve Kingwood, except for Park&Ride service during rush hour, so the argument cannot be made that "ghetto types" are using public transit to access the Livable Forest (unless they pay $7.00 round trip). And, METRO is not a City agency, and is unrelated to annexation anyway. No one has posted statistics that Kingwood suffers from lack of fire protection, a City service. Other than the HOME GROWN armed robbers, Kingwood does not appear to be crime ridden. Besides, prior to annexation, Kingwood only received thin Harris County law enforcement. Even if this could be used as evidence of "ghettofication", NOT ONE poster has explained how posting new "City Limit" signs around Kingwood actually causes an increase in crime.

Schools, or lack thereof, cannot be linked to the City. They have their own tax structure and district, unaffected by annexation. So, what is it? Can anyone name something specifically and directly related to annexation that caused Kingwood's (perceived) decline? I noted earlier that Kingwood is past its prime as a premier subdivision, having been passed up by the Woodlands and some of the Katy and Fort Bend areas. But, this is related to age, not annexation. What is it? Anything? Someone? Can anyone point out something true, something that is not a "suburban legend" or lame anecdote?

[TheNiche]

While you are free to participate or not, Niche, you could at least stay marginally on topic. No one is advocating the destruction of the suburbs. The topic was the opinion that all of Kingwood's perceived woes are directly the result of the City of Houston's annexation in 1996. I have yet to see a post that actually addresses that. I have seen many that stated conclusions without any data to back it up, though. In fact, many of the conclusions are flat out wrong. It has already been pointed out that METRO does not serve Kingwood, except for Park&Ride service during rush hour, so the argument cannot be made that "ghetto types" are using public transit to access the Livable Forest (unless they pay $7.00 round trip). And, METRO is not a City agency, and is unrelated to annexation anyway. No one has posted statistics that Kingwood suffers from lack of fire protection, a City service. Other than the HOME GROWN armed robbers, Kingwood does not appear to be crime ridden. Besides, prior to annexation, Kingwood only received thin Harris County law enforcement. Even if this could be used as evidence of "ghettofication", NOT ONE poster has explained how posting new "City Limit" signs around Kingwood actually causes an increase in crime.

Schools, or lack thereof, cannot be linked to the City. They have their own tax structure and district, unaffected by annexation. So, what is it? Can anyone name something specifically and directly related to annexation that caused Kingwood's (perceived) decline? I noted earlier that Kingwood is past its prime as a premier subdivision, having been passed up by the Woodlands and some of the Katy and Fort Bend areas. But, this is related to age, not annexation. What is it? Anything? Someone? Can anyone point out something true, something that is not a "suburban legend" or lame anecdote?

It was a thought experiment, conjured up to preempt a tangent.

Otherwise, I'm all on board with your line of reasoning.

[RedScare]

No prob, Niche. However, I am very interested whether someone can point to something the City did to cause Kingwood to decline, or if it is the usual disconnected logic of blaming the Houston bogeyman for unrelated woes.

By the way, to the poster who said Kingwood got screwed moneywise, their tax rate is 3.08%, up to 25% LESS than Woodlands neighborhoods that do NOT receive City services. Please explain your math.

[wxman]

What, you mean Jews?

Of course they're free to...even if it is a pointless go-nowhere shouting match. ...and on that same note, I'm free to voice my disapproval of it.

I've taken part in these before in previous threads, one of which was also related to Kingwood. No sense in covering the same ground twice and still going nowhere.

That's racist and uncalled for!

No prob, Niche. However, I am very interested whether someone can point to something the City did to cause Kingwood to decline, or if it is the usual disconnected logic of blaming the Houston bogeyman for unrelated woes.

By the way, to the poster who said Kingwood got screwed moneywise, their tax rate is 3.08%, up to 25% LESS than Woodlands neighborhoods that do NOT receive City services. Please explain your math.

And not recieving Houston services is a bad thing?

[RedScare]

And not recieving Houston services is a bad thing?

Well, let me put it this way. I have lived (in single family housing) in Houston, Fort Worth, The Woodlands and unincorporated Harris County. Houston city services were better than the other 3 in police, fire, garbage pickup, heavy trash pickup and water. The price was about equal to Fort Worth and unincorporated Harris County, and MUCH lower than the Woodlands.

When basing the equation on math, as opposed to hyperbole, the answer is an unqualified "Yes".

[Original Timmy Chan's]

While you are free to participate or not, Niche, you could at least stay marginally on topic. No one is advocating the destruction of the suburbs. The topic was the opinion that all of Kingwood's perceived woes are directly the result of the City of Houston's annexation in 1996. I have yet to see a post that actually addresses that. I have seen many that stated conclusions without any data to back it up, though. In fact, many of the conclusions are flat out wrong. It has already been pointed out that METRO does not serve Kingwood, except for Park&Ride service during rush hour, so the argument cannot be made that "ghetto types" are using public transit to access the Livable Forest (unless they pay $7.00 round trip). And, METRO is not a City agency, and is unrelated to annexation anyway. No one has posted statistics that Kingwood suffers from lack of fire protection, a City service. Other than the HOME GROWN armed robbers, Kingwood does not appear to be crime ridden. Besides, prior to annexation, Kingwood only received thin Harris County law enforcement. Even if this could be used as evidence of "ghettofication", NOT ONE poster has explained how posting new "City Limit" signs around Kingwood actually causes an increase in crime.

Schools, or lack thereof, cannot be linked to the City. They have their own tax structure and district, unaffected by annexation. So, what is it? Can anyone name something specifically and directly related to annexation that caused Kingwood's (perceived) decline? I noted earlier that Kingwood is past its prime as a premier subdivision, having been passed up by the Woodlands and some of the Katy and Fort Bend areas. But, this is related to age, not annexation. What is it? Anything? Someone? Can anyone point out something true, something that is not a "suburban legend" or lame anecdote?

RedScare hit it on the nose there...

Kingwood's decline, real or perceived, is not related to whether their taxpayers' checks go to a MUD or to the COH. It was going to happen either way.

Anyone know what the MUD taxes were before the annexation? COH taxes are $0.645. Suburban taxpayers like to complain about their property taxes increasing all the time...I assume their MUD taxes and services were not better than what they've got now through the COH (police, trash, fire, city water/wastewater).

[Ethanra]

They knew what happened to Clear Lake City and they didn't want that happening to them.

What happen to Clear Lake City? Clear Lake City is one of the best suburbs in the Houston Region. Clear Lake City has good schools, it has walkable neighborhoods that people actually do walk to the library, grocery store, little league fields, bowling alley, etc... Most other suburbs you have to get in your car and drive to get anything/anyewhere. You have a HPD command center in Clear Lake that is involved with the community. Pocket parks placed throughout the community plus larger ones that are close. There is a dozen other positives.....

[TheNiche]

That's racist and uncalled for!

It's racist to ask whether there are Jews in supposed ghettos?

Fwiw, it was meant to inspire a historically-based chuckle, not genocide or whatever such thing you associate with the word 'ghetto'.

[Trae]

Can Kingwood un-annex itself?

Oh, and Black people don't make an area ghetto, but many [white] people believe so. If there are a group of Black kids walking down the street (or even worse, riding bikes) in Kingwood, its "this place has gone ghetto". If it was a group of white or Asian kids, it wouldn't be like that.

[Mark F. Barnes]

No Trae they cannot un-annex themselves.

[editor]

Niche and Millenica: Take it to PM. You've both strayed way off topic. Instead of discussing the issue, you're arguing about arguing.

[KinkaidAlum]

My biggest guess as to what happened to Kingwood would be that it stopped being tightly controlled after Friendswood Development sold out. Additionally, every time I fly into IAH from BOS I notice that newer development is severely affected by the new regulations regarding flood control measures. The massive clear-cutting that takes place to put in new roads, schools, and cookie-cutter homes isn't very appealing, especially from the air! There is no Liveable Forest anymore.

Additionally, like all suburbs, Kingwood suffers when there is new development being built all around. Houses from the 1970s and 80s seem dated when some new megapalace is being built right up the road and often for the same price. Without having an excellent location near all employment bases, the older areas begin to decline. It's a natural cycle that happens in every suburb.

[MidtownCoog]

Kingwood is "built out" from what I understand.

Where is this "new" development?

[Jeebus]

What does black people have to do with being ghetto? Black people don't make a place ghetto. Ghetto people make it that way.

Maybe in some places around the world black does not equal ghetto. Here however, how do you explain: 3rd Ward, 5th Ward, Kashmere Gardens, Denver Harbor, South Inwood, Acres Homes, Independence Heights, South Union, South Park, Sunnyside, ALL the apartments on the southwest side in neighborhoods like Forum Place, Gulfton, Westwood, Aleif - and along streets like Hilcroft, Fondren, Gessner, Wilcrest, Kirkwood, Synott, Harwin, Bellaire, Beechnut, Bissonnet, Bellfort, & West Airport?

Those are all predominantly black neighborhoods, and they are all ghetto. At what point can we put down policital correctness so that we may call things as they are?

FYI Jew's made up the first ghettos in the middle ages.

Everybody in the city wants our tax money, but yet we have no right to vote for mayor, stadiums, rail, or any other city improvement. It's taxation without representation!

Are you saying Kingwood residents aren't allowed to vote in public elections concerning the City of Houston?

[Trae]

Maybe in some places around the world black does not equal ghetto. Here however, how do you explain: 3rd Ward, 5th Ward, Kashmere Gardens, Denver Harbor, South Inwood, Acres Homes, Independence Heights, South Union, South Park, Sunnyside, ALL the apartments on the southwest side in neighborhoods like Forum Place, Gulfton, Westwood, Aleif - and along streets like Hilcroft, Fondren, Gessner, Wilcrest, Kirkwood, Synott, Harwin, Bellaire, Beechnut, Bissonnet, Bellfort, & West Airport?

Those are all predominantly black neighborhoods, and they are all ghetto. At what point can we put down policital correctness so that we may call things as they are?

FYI Jew's made up the first ghettos in the middle ages.

Are you saying Kingwood residents aren't allowed to vote in public elections concerning the City of Houston?

Black still does not equate ghetto. In a lot of those neighborhoods you named, Hispanics are the majority. Alief also isn't all black, but a diverse community.

[mrfootball]

I think we've covered just about everything on this thread.

Might help to get the input from a few more actual Kingwood residents:

http://www.kingwood.com/message_board/message_board.php

or

http://kingwoodunderground.com/

[wxman]

Maybe in some places around the world black does not equal ghetto. Here however, how do you explain: 3rd Ward, 5th Ward, Kashmere Gardens, Denver Harbor, South Inwood, Acres Homes, Independence Heights, South Union, South Park, Sunnyside, ALL the apartments on the southwest side in neighborhoods like Forum Place, Gulfton, Westwood, Aleif - and along streets like Hilcroft, Fondren, Gessner, Wilcrest, Kirkwood, Synott, Harwin, Bellaire, Beechnut, Bissonnet, Bellfort, & West Airport?

Those are all predominantly black neighborhoods, and they are all ghetto. At what point can we put down policital correctness so that we may call things as they are?

FYI Jew's made up the first ghettos in the middle ages.

Are you saying Kingwood residents aren't allowed to vote in public elections concerning the City of Houston?

No...Kingwood can. But Conroe, TW, and others can't but yet are expected to contribute. Don't think so!

As far as being ghetto, there is trash in every race. And white trash is some of the worst.

[Ethanra]

Maybe in some places around the world black does not equal ghetto. Here however, how do you explain: 3rd Ward, 5th Ward, Kashmere Gardens, Denver Harbor, South Inwood, Acres Homes, Independence Heights, South Union, South Park, Sunnyside, ALL the apartments on the southwest side in neighborhoods like Forum Place, Gulfton, Westwood, Aleif - and along streets like Hilcroft, Fondren, Gessner, Wilcrest, Kirkwood, Synott, Harwin, Bellaire, Beechnut, Bissonnet, Bellfort, & West Airport?

Those are all predominantly black neighborhoods, and they are all ghetto. At what point can we put down policital correctness so that we may call things as they are?

FYI Jew's made up the first ghettos in the middle ages.

Are you saying Kingwood residents aren't allowed to vote in public elections concerning the City of Houston?

Many of those neighborhoods are hispanic and a couple are Asian. What is your define. of ghetto? Some of the neighborhoods you listed are avrg., just minority owned. Their is a white-trash trailor park in Cypress, does it mean that community is ghetto? Missouri City has a few black neighborhoods, does it mean it is ghetto? Just wondering what your define. of ghetto is....

[musicman]

Are you saying Kingwood residents aren't allowed to vote in public elections concerning the City of Houston?

they can vote. district e councilmember lives in kingwood as well.

[RedScare]

No...Kingwood can. But Conroe, TW, and others can't but yet are expected to contribute. Don't think so!

Umm...Kingwood residents pay Houston taxes, and vote in Houston elections. I believe they get representation for their taxation. Conroe residents pay City of Conroe taxes, and vote in Conroe elections. They get Conroe representation for their Conroe taxation. Last time I checked, Conroe, The Woodlands "and others" do not pay Houston taxes, and therefore, do not get to vote in Houston elections.

Are you demanding representation without taxation?

[Jeebus]

Many of those neighborhoods are hispanic and a couple are Asian. What is your define. of ghetto? Some of the neighborhoods you listed are avrg., just minority owned. Their is a white-trash trailor park in Cypress, does it mean that community is ghetto? Missouri City has a few black neighborhoods, does it mean it is ghetto? Just wondering what your define. of ghetto is....

Areas where crime is higher than average, the education level is lower than average, and the median income is lower than average. Just use this site to fact check: Houston Super Neighborhoods

I didn't list Missouri City as a ghetto because per the above criteria, it is not. Stop trying to incite racism just because the conversation involves minorities.

The white trailer-park in Cypress probably is ghetto. Most trailer parks are.

No...Kingwood can. But Conroe, TW, and others can't but yet are expected to contribute. Don't think so!

Do you have any facts to base your accusations? These neighborhoods are expected to contribute what exactly?

[houstonmacbro]

I love people who blame the big bad city for all their woes.

Earth to complainers; there'd be no suburban utopia without the big bad city. Plus, the big bad city still has neighborhoods, parks, restaurants, entertainment, and even schools (Bellaire, Lamar, HSPVA, Health, Criminal Justice) that blow yours out of the water!

Agreed! I mean, how can they blame everything on Houston when I would wager, more than 3/4 of them work in the city. You can't have it both ways.

Many of those neighborhoods are hispanic and a couple are Asian. What is your define. of ghetto? Some of the neighborhoods you listed are avrg., just minority owned. Their is a white-trash trailor park in Cypress, does it mean that community is ghetto? Missouri City has a few black neighborhoods, does it mean it is ghetto? Just wondering what your define. of ghetto is....

Remember 'the ghetto' used to be the inner city until land values and lofts shot up all over midtown and Third Ward.

Ghetto is any place that hasn't gentrifief yet, or that was, and now is, no more.

[Trae]

A lot of Third Ward isn't bad, and there is a large section of it with mansions (along Brays). Many (the majority) owned by Blacks.

No...Kingwood can. But Conroe, TW, and others can't but yet are expected to contribute. Don't think so!

As far as being ghetto, there is trash in every race. And white trash is some of the worst.

The hell are you talking about?

[houstonmacbro]

A lot of Third Ward isn't bad, and there is a large section of it with mansions (along Brays). Many (the majority) owned by Blacks.

The hell are you talking about?

Agreed. I am just saying that a lot of people I've heard talk think that any place with too many blacks, hispanics, etc. and that are poor are considered the ghetto.

[editor]

Enough with the discussion of "gehtto." We all know the origin of the word. If you're not going to talk about Kingwood, the thread will be closed.

[houstonmacbro]

Ouch ... we've been warned.

[Trae]

So, are the older homes in Kingwood perceived to be nice and somewhat upscale? Much like Nottingham or Williamsburg Settlement in Katy?

[millennica]

Enough with the discussion of "gehtto." We all know the origin of the word. If you're not going to talk about Kingwood, the thread will be closed.

I definitely don't want to cross the editor and be publicly sanctioned again. However, I want to point out the first 2 posts-- ricco67 and the editors-- mentioned that Kingwood residents were complaining that they felt the area was "going ghetto" and turning "from a suburban paradise into a ghetto," so I don't understand why clarifying what people mean by the word is inappropriate. Obviously it means something negative to the Kingwood residents if we are to believe ricco67's and the editor's posts. I don't want to speak for Redscare, but it would seem he understood the word as a code word for the presence of Blacks. Otherwise, he wouldn't have written this sentence. "As for Kingwood going ghetto, most people would not call 2.37 percent Black population 'ghetto' (except for a Kingwood resident, of course)" When Kinkaid weighed in with his comment about the schools, it seems to be that he also associated the term with the presence of Blacks. Otherwise why would he have written the following.

"Seems like there are a LOT more options for quality education within the city limits than there are up in Kingwood despite 85% of the students being white (the real reason Kingwood types would probably still choose Kingwood H.S)" This is the reason I weighed in with the comment that the discussion was not simply about schools because I thought there was another conversation taking place.

Perhaps I'm the only one, but it bothers me how people (not only on HAIF, but other message boards as well) throw the term around, expecting that people agree on its meaning, when based on this discussion with some agreeing it is a code word for Black and others not-- and others I've read leads me to believe that perhaps we don't. And in my estimation it is that confusion and lack of specificity that sometimes make me feel that the discussions on this board are talking about something that they really aren't talking about. Maybe this happens because all of us find it exceptionally difficult to have a real discussion about race and culture in the post civil-rights period.

Apologies, editor if I've strayed off topic.

[MidtownCoog]

Someone should start an off topic thread on "ghetto".

My Mom used the word once at at home owners meeting and people went crazy.