811 Main: Office Skyscraper At 811 Main St.

[Jax]

I contacted the developer and there IS going to be as much street retail as they can fit in this place. If you look back a few threads, I posted the email the developer sent me. I don't know how the streetscaping is going to be, but retail is a sure thing. I think it helps with their LEED certification, and they are shooting for higher than silver is possible.

[nate]

I'll ask again... how would the design of this building be any different if it were on the West Loop feeder road?

It would be setback at least 20 feet, have a small surface parking lot and a landscape barrier.

What more do you want of MainPlace? Plans call for street level retail and a lobby with direct access to the street.

Please state specifically how they could enliven the street environment. Then ask if your recommendations are commercially viable.

[Highway6]

While I agree that it would be better with some street treatments, the tower could easily be retrofitted with retail space and openings later. In fact, I'd say even moreso BECAUSE the entrance is on Rusk. For instance, 1000 Main wastes a lot of space on the entrance on Main.

One doesnt retrofit multi-story, entire footprint lobby spaces with retail.

You can't just throw up several storefront systems and some interior partitions.

When incorporating retail into a new office tower... the kind of retail you want, restaurants, delis, stuff to increase streetlife..... ya got to think about service entrances for the retail, possible service alley, public vs private entrances, secure building lobby/ elevator banks.. etc.

What you call wasted space on 1000 Main is exactly what we will have here... an office tower's grand lobby space. If they wanted streetlevel retail, it would have been incorporated into the design a long time ago.

At least with 1000 Main, they included two very visible access points to the basement retail/tunnels.

I agree with H-Town man in that this won't do much to add to the quality of pedstrian life though it will add more pedestrians.

I disagree with several of you though in that i don't really care if this one has retail.. I'm happy from the skyline perspective.

The Pavillions has some of us jaded to think all new office towers should be forced to have the Hello Deli and a starbucks jammed at the bottom. Look at BoA, Penzoil, Chase.. look at the 1000 Main, Calpine, Enron... none have any significant retail and the first three are probably considered the architectural gems of downtown. Pavillions is the exception.. but we also new from the get go that it would have a huge retail component.

Trust me, for the amount of streetlevel retail y'all want in a new project.... you will know when that project is announced if it's going to happen.

Speculating that maybe an office tower will throw in significant levels of retail later by cramming it into their beautifully designed lobby spaces, just because ya think that lobby space is wasteful.. is pointless.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Highway6

[Highway6]

What more do you want of MainPlace? Plans call for street level retail and a lobby with direct access to the street.

Every downtown building has a lobby with direct access to the street. This is not an indication of promoting a more viable, pedestrian friendly atmosphere.

Please state specifically how they could enliven the street environment. Then ask if your recommendations are commercially viable.

They could forego the grand lobby approach to modern hi-rise office towers and instead incorporate 2-3 levels of Pavillionsesque level of design and retail.

That being said.. they did not go this approach so there is nothing that can be added to the current design of this building that will significantly increase the pedestrian experience.

They included one level of retail at the base of the garage on one side of the block, and they maybe have a few hundred square feet at the opposite corner of the block for a coffee shop or a Fedex. Bravo.

What H-Town Man is saying is they could have done so much more, and chose not to.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Highway6

[Jax]

There will be retail space along Main Street…we fully intend to address the Main Street component of this project with landscaping, retail frontage, etc. While we don’t have anything of the scale of the Pavilions, we do have as much as is possible given the layout of our 3/4 block site.

From what I can tell, retail is going along the entire length of main, parking entrance on Walker (maybe retail), and grand lobby on Rusk...is that right Seems like a decent compromise to me. Of course it could always be better but this is better than most of the office buildings in Houston as far as enhancing the street life.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Jax

[Highway6]

From what I can tell, retail is going along the entire length of main, parking entrance on Walker (maybe retail), and grand lobby on Rusk...is that right Seems like a decent compromise to me. Of course it could always be better but this is better than most of the office buildings in Houston as far as enhancing the street life.

Jax, i could be completely wrong.. but this is how i read the pictures we have seen.

We're looking at 1/2 to 2/3 of Main will be retail. This is only the part at the garage.

Just becasue the entrance to the tower lobby space is on Rusk does not mean the tower lobby space facing Main is being used as retail instead of lobby.

The bottom picture below shows the corner of Main at Rusk...and it shows the interior lobby space turning the corner along Main.

The top picture, the siteplan from the Chronicle suggests the tower takes up half the block and that the perspective of the middle picture might be deceiving in the ratio of garage to tower along Main.

If the planned retail along 50-60% of Main ends up being multilevel, I think we should consider ourselves lucky.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Highway6

[GovernorAggie]

One doesnt retrofit multi-story, entire footprint lobby spaces with retail.

You can't just throw up several storefront systems and some interior partitions.

When incorporating retail into a new office tower... the kind of retail you want, restaurants, delis, stuff to increase streetlife..... ya got to think about service entrances for the retail, possible service alley, public vs private entrances, secure building lobby/ elevator banks.. etc.

The only reason that I suggested that is because I have seen this exact thing happen in another city--replacing a glass wall, no less. So it's not impossible.

[Jax]

Hmm.. interesting. You may be right. Did the Chron article label the first image, or was that you?

[Highway6]

Hmm.. interesting. You may be right. Did the Chron article label the first image, or was that you?

Those are my red and green labels.

[Highway6]

The only reason that I suggested that is because I have seen this exact thing happen in another city--replacing a glass wall, no less. So it's not impossible.

I'm not saying it's impossible.

I'm saying to get the quality and quantity of designed retail and public space necessary to increase the pedestrian quality of life takes planning.. and is not something thrown in after a building has been designed.

Cutting an entrance and adding a few hundred square feet of Kinkos doesnt cut it.

[Houston19514]

Here is an example of using architecture to enliven the street environment. Notice how the first four floors are not merely a continuation of the rest of the facade, but that the architect considered the streetscape (in addition to the skyline) in his design.

But the entrances appear to be recessed!! OMG, that's not good for pedestrians (or at least it wasn't in your prior post.)

I don't think we have seen any detailed renderings of the Main Street street level facade. They may not even exist at this point, pending what kind of retail they sign up. Frankly the first four floors being different from the rest of the building doesn't really do much for the pedestrian on the sidewalk either. I'm really not understanding what your beef is, other than to find SOMEthing, ANYthing to complain about.

(BTW, perhaps you should look at the MainPlace rendering again... the Main Street facade indeed has a setback at about the 3rd floor level along where at least most of the retail will apparently be. So it looks like the architect perhaps did indeed consider the streetscape in his design.)

Edited September 11, 2007 by Houston19514

[H-Town Man]

But the entrances appear to be recessed!! OMG, that's not good for pedestrians (or at least it wasn't in your prior post.)

Actually, the lower floors are jutting out, creating a street presence. You see this in most pre-war and new urbanist skyscrapers.

I'm really not understanding what your beef is, other than to find SOMEthing, ANYthing to complain about.

I don't really understand most of your responses to my posts over the years, other than to find SOMEthing, ANYthing to disagree with.

Highway6 - good points.

[Jax]

I like the recessed lower floors. The overhang would give pedestrians shelter from the sun.

[H-Town Man]

Look at BoA, Penzoil, Chase.. look at the 1000 Main, Calpine, Enron... none have any significant retail and the first three are probably considered the architectural gems of downtown.

That is true, although they are our gems primarily because of what they do for our skyline. On the street level, their environment is inhuman and forbidding.I welcome any addition to our skyline, but I'm not sure more skyline is what downtown Houston really needs right now. We have one of the most visually appealing skylines in the country, but on the street level downtown is still mostly a no-man's land. Downtown Austin or Fort Worth are more exciting for a pedestrian.

I like the recessed lower floors. The overhang would give pedestrians shelter from the sun.

That could have been done much more appealingly.

[Houston19514]

Actually, the lower floors are jutting out, creating a street presence. You see this in most pre-war and new urbanist skyscrapers.

And that is exactly what we have in the MainPlace design for the Main Street facade. The lower floors are "jutting" out, at least in the garage segment, which appears to cover 1/2 or more of the block. Again, your problem with the MainPlace design is what, exactly?

[H-Town Man]

And that is exactly what we have in the MainPlace design for the Main Street facade. The lower floors are "jutting" out, at least in the garage segment, which appears to cover 1/2 or more of the block. Again, your problem with the MainPlace design is what, exactly?

Gosh 19514, you're right. The architect of MainPlace was thoughtful enough to have the parking garage jut out towards Main St. I guess he must have cared about creating a quality street environment after all.

[bachanon]

Gosh 19514, you're right. The architect of MainPlace was thoughtful enough to have the parking garage jut out towards Main St. I guess he must have cared about creating a quality street environment after all.

I think what he is saying is that the retail will be jutting out in front of, or behind the garage structure. Currently, we have entire blocks of garages facing Main. A garage with retail facing Main will be a welcome sight. Am I missing something, or is H-Town?

[Houston19514]

Gosh 19514, you're right. The architect of MainPlace was thoughtful enough to have the parking garage jut out towards Main St. I guess he must have cared about creating a quality street environment after all.

Roll your eyes right on out of their sockets to avoid actually looking at the renderings if you want. The part that juts out towards Main Street is the retail portion of the building. People other than I have also asked you what it is about the building that should be different in order to produce better pedestrian life, and all you can come up with is, well, nothing.

You complain about recessed entrances and then post a picture of a building with recessed entrances as your model of what could be done. (and of course, so far as we know, the Main Street decide doesn't even have the pedestrian-life-destroying recessed entrances)

Then you tell us the good thing about your posted building is that it "juts out" at the lower floors, somehow thereby creating a friendly pedestrian atmosphere, but conveniently ignoring that the retail area along Main Street of MainPlace also "juts out" from the rest of the building. Do you actually have anything constructive to say or any actual reason for your criticism?

Edited September 11, 2007 by Houston19514

[Highway6]

MainPlace's garage has a retail mass jutting out. At street level, you're still looking at basically a shear vertical wall going 1/3 of the way up the way up a 10 story garage. It's just a glass wall 10' from the street like any other downtown block, and it appears to be mostly uncovered or a very shallow cover..

Judging from the pic. to me it looks like a a mini-multistory mall like the main part of the galleria, cut longitudinally, with a glass wall to the street.

So basically this retail is all in a climate controlled environment, separated from the outside.

It's not 3 delis, 2 laundrymats, a bookstore etc all lined up each with direct access to the street.... and a little sidewalk cafe at the end.

Will it get more people on the street at this location.. yes.. but It will do no more to facilitate a friendly pedestrian atmosphere than Houston Center does.

vs

The other two projects have a covered, multi-level, deep recessed pedestrian arcade.

When you're in those arcades, you cant see 10 levels of parking garage or 40 levels of skyscraper going up above you.

You see 2-3 stories of retail. This is what is referred to as being pedestrian-scaled.

You experience a wide (safe from cars) area to walk or congregate that is also protected from the rain or sun.

These two might just as well be the same mini-multistory mall with a glass wall as above.... but the difference is, these two promote gathering out on the sidewalk as well.

Which one would you rather be walking through ??

Presence of retail does not equal friendly walking environment.

Well designed friendly walking environment with access to retail is what equals a vibrant downtown.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Highway6

[Highway6]

Compare MainPlace with Blvd Place or Pavillions

The latter two have massive retail components designed in from the get go... They have friendly pedestrian environments designed in from the get go.

MainPlace.. has half a block of retail afterthought.

Mainplace will be a beautiful addition to our skyline.. it'll have a few retail stores tucked away inside the garage.. it will probably add some pedestrians to the block.... but.. it will do squat to make walking downtown a more pleasant or vibrant experience

[RedScare]

I just hope that there is enough room for the corner bum store to reopen.

[musicman]

Mainplace will be a beautiful addition to our skyline.. it'll have a few retail stores tucked away inside the garage.. it will probably add some pedestrians to the block.... but.. it will do squat to make walking downtown a more pleasant or vibrant experience

IMO retail doesn't make walking a pleasant or vibrant experience.

getting rid of the urine smell at lamar @ main would sure make it more pleasant to me.

[Jax]

Haha for once I agree with Musicman!

Although for me it's a combination of retail, and the lack of a urine smell.

Are you sure the retail will be tucked inside the garage? It still looks in the photo like it's right on the street, only at the bottom of the garage part of the structure.

[dalparadise]

That is true, although they are our gems primarily because of what they do for our skyline. On the street level, their environment is inhuman and forbidding.I welcome any addition to our skyline, but I'm not sure more skyline is what downtown Houston really needs right now. We have one of the most visually appealing skylines in the country, but on the street level downtown is still mostly a no-man's land. Downtown Austin or Fort Worth are more exciting for a pedestrian.That could have been done much more appealingly.

As for "inhuman environments at street level" I'd say that Pennzoil and Chase do an amazing job of humanizing their scale and sites without turning them into strip centers. The entrance to Pennzoil is almost on the scale of a private residence, the way it slopes down to sidewalk level and brings people inside before they actually enter the building. Chase actually made a large city square with sculpture the justification for its massive height and edge siting. You walk up tiny steps with long runs to get to it. I'd say that is a pretty good urbanist's approach to humanizing the scale. BofA is a scaling disaster, I agree, but it was designed to be freeway architecture at the height of that movement's heydey in the epicenter of its most prominent city. Plus, it's so beautiful, I think most give it a pass for the damage it did to the sidewalk experience. Regardless, there's an entire city block-sized park across the street where you are free to be as pedestrian as you want. Calpine I don't consider a major building in any regard, except that it is very new. It does happen to be in probably the most walkable areas of Downtown, near several cool eateries and bars and adjacent to major performing arts centers, so I'm not sure what your beef is there. I walk around it all the time and find it neither inhuman nor forbidding. 1000 Main closed the entire street in front of itself to make a pleasant pedestrian plaza. How much more freaking human can you get?

Edited September 12, 2007 by dalparadise

[WesternGulf]

I like the recessed lower floors. The overhang would give pedestrians shelter from the sun.

Ditto. I wish more Houston buildings of the 70's and 80's would have practiced this. Would have been a smart and cheaper practice in hot and humid Houston than building out the tunnel system with the ground floor retail one floor below ground in every building.

[Subdude]

I assume it would be the case, but can anyone confirm if Main Place will be connected to the tunnels? It seems like the only way to make the connection would be either north from McKinney place garage though Kirby Lofts, or east from 806 Main under Main St, which would require tunneling under the train tracks. I would be willing to bet most of the workers there would prefer a tunnel connection to street-level retail.

[Guest Marty]

Would they let retail in a building that size because if I work there or owned the building I would be concerned about the security with people walking in and out freely.

[Trae]

IMO retail doesn't make walking a pleasant or vibrant experience.

getting rid of the urine smell at lamar @ main would sure make it more pleasant to me.

Same. It doesn't have to be completely retail to make the walk nice.

[musicman]

Same. It doesn't have to be completely retail to make the walk nice.

there doesn't have to been any retail to make the walk nice.

[Jax]

Yeah but retail helps to attract people so you're not walking through a ghost town. And walking with other people around is one factor that makes a walk nice (for most of us anyways).