Mobility Projects Report For The Woodlands

[pineda]

From The Woodlands Association Board meeting held on January 25th, 2007:

The Board accepted a report to update current mobility projects in The Woodlands area including the following:

o Widening Research Forest to 3 lanes starts mid-2007.

o Extending Kuykendahl to FM 1488 starts during 2008.

o Plans for traffic signals on Research Forest and Woodlands Parkway.

o I-45 from FM 1488 to south Loop 336 is scheduled to be completed August 2008.

o Construction for FM 1488 expansion starts March 2007. The 4 mile segment from the FM 2978 intersection eastward will take 19 months to complete.

o The Engineering contract to widen FM 2978 from the Harris County line to FM 1488 will be released in early 2007.

o Planning for Grand Parkway continues with completion scheduled for mid-2012.

o Construction start of the Woodlands Parkway Park & Ride near Ashlane Way is expected in the near future.

[Mom22Blessings]

what about RF to 1488??

[bachanon]

i think there are traffic signals to be built along grogan's mill at woodloch forest, lake robbins and lake front circle (this year).

[ConstructionManagerMAS]

I'm with Mom22. I'm surprised they didn't mention Research Forest to FM2978. That seems logical considering the new Westwood Village shopping center.

[KatieDidIt]

I'm with Mom22. I'm surprised they didn't mention Research Forest to FM2978. That seems logical considering the new Westwood Village shopping center.

I've heard from residents that live in Alden Bridge that they were told just recently that RS was not going to be put through.

But how many times have we been told things weren't going to happen and then they do?

Something's gotta give, the traffic on the Prkwy is getting realy bad.

[Mom22Blessings]

I meant 2978. It's pretty ridiculous that you can see the back of houses in AB but those people can't get out through that way.

[seth]

I meant 2978. It's pretty ridiculous that you can see the back of houses in AB but those people can't get out through that way.

I am hoping they finally open it up now that the new shopping center with Target is being built near 2978 and 1488.

If you look up Westwood Village at the regency centers web-site:

<http://www.regencycenters.com/SplashNav.aspx?M1=Developments&M2=Developments.aspx> it shows Research Forest as being on

the south side of the development.

060024_sp.pdf

[woody_hawkeye]

The 3 lanes on RF are not clear. It appears to be 3 lanes going each way. If that is the case, then it stretches all the way from I45 to Kuykendahl? Not sure what this means.

[Mom22Blessings]

THAT's why they put the light up at 2978 and Egypt.......

[wxman]

When The Woodlands is built out, the projected population is 150,000+. That's not including places like Oak Ridge North, Spring (montgomery county side) and places of 242. I think we need a rapid transit system...aka light rail to accomodate all the growth. Buses will only add to the congestion. Not to mention a report out by Woods and Poole says that Montgomery county will more than double it's current population by 2020. That will put us in the range of 700,000 people. We are in a lot of trouble if we don't do something fast.

The Woodlands Parkway needs yet another lane. Research Forest needs two lanes and 242 needs two lanes. I-45 could probably use two more lanes as well.

[bachanon]

the powers that be are aware of the coming influx of people. hopefully, as some have said, they will be working towards growth. if they don't, it will be a nightmare.

this past week, it took me 45 minutes to get from grogan's mill to kuykendahl and 2920. it was rush hour, but for god's sake! what a mess. i can't imagine buying a house in sterling ridge and commuting to houston. i wouldn't own a house in the woodlands unless i lived in panther creek, grogan's mill or worked in the woodlands proper.

thankfully, this is why my home value is going up rapidly. people want to live in the woodlands, but they don't want to live in the back. grogan's mill is becoming more appealing. there are even teardowns occurring.

btw investors, you can still buy a crappy house in grogan's mill for 100k. as town center continues to explode, home values will rise in grogan's mill. buy now.

[ricco67]

I know it was discussed in another thread, but they really do need to set up some trolley system that can eventually be converted to something along a light rail down the road.

If they play nice and they're smart, they will be smart and pay into metro's coffers and get some comprehensive bus/trolley system (it's not big enough for a full fledged light rail now) that will expedite ingress and egress along several points of the woodlands. While everyone concentrates on the I-45 side, people on the far west end of WL needs help to be able to get out to 249 and 290.

[TheNiche]

I think we need a rapid transit system...aka light rail to accomodate all the growth. Buses will only add to the congestion.

Where does the light rail go? How do you get people from a set of extremely decentralized locations (homes) to another set of extremely decentralized locations (offices, hospitals, retail centers, and industrial facilities) using expensive fixed-guideway systems that utilize their own ROWs in spaces that would otherwise be roads and as such pose an opportunity cost that manifests itself in the form of additional congestion?

Suburban light rail does not work well as an effective congestion-reduction tool.

[KatieDidIt]

the powers that be are aware of the coming influx of people. hopefully, as some have said, they will be working towards growth. if they don't, it will be a nightmare.

this past week, it took me 45 minutes to get from grogan's mill to kuykendahl and 2920. it was rush hour, but for god's sake! what a mess. i can't imagine buying a house in sterling ridge and commuting to houston. i wouldn't own a house in the woodlands unless i lived in panther creek, grogan's mill or worked in the woodlands proper.

This is one of the major reason we are moving. I don't do the parkway except to take the kids up to the fields on Budde. Market Street is not worth the 30 minute drive at any given time of the day. I don't even want to talk about rush hour. We really feel trapped back here. The Parkway is a high blood pressure drive. If I go the back way to town (during non rush hour) and hit the beltway, I can be in West Houston in 45 minutes with almost no lights. So, You know which way I usually go.

They really should have designed the whole "parkway" like the did the Grogans Mill exit/underpass. Instead they opted for a gazillon red lights.

[ricco67]

This is one of the major reason we are moving. I don't do the parkway except to take the kids up to the fields on Budde. Market Street is not worth the 30 minute drive at any given time of the day. I don't even want to talk about rush hour. We really feel trapped back here. The Parkway is a high blood pressure drive. If I go the back way to town (during non rush hour) and hit the beltway, I can be in West Houston in 45 minutes with almost no lights. So, You know which way I usually go.

They really should have designed the whole "parkway" like the did the Grogans Mill exit/underpass. Instead they opted for a gazillon red lights.

When the woodlands were first conceived, I doubt that they could have foresaw the traffic jams that would inevitably would come. While WL seems to be awash in enough funds to do some good infrastructure improvements; I don't think they necessarily can at this particular juncture because it will involve pissing off a whole bunch of people and complaining about the traffic even more so.

Even if they can try to do some more overpass/underpass work, they will be limited on what they can do because people would cause such an outcry about how they want to keep the "wood" in "woodlands".

I don't envy the planners of WL, they have some tough decisions to make and quite a number of those decisions will be VERY unpopular.

[wxman]

First of all, light rail does work and would work up here as well. The track could be run down that useless HOV lane on 45 for starters and cross the freeway at distinct locations such as Sawdust, Woodlands Pkwy and maybe Research Forest. If you look through the windows on The Woodlands Express, the buses are full both going to and from work (at rush hour of course). People are itching for more park and rides already and they are getting ready to put one on Woodlands Pkwy. I'm not sure exactly how the train could get into The Woodlands, but where there's a will there's a way. And as a resident of The Woodlands, I WANT LIGHTRAIL!

They'd better do something quick because as stated in my earlier post, The Woodlands will be 150,000+ in a couple years and Montgomery County will be getting close to 1,000,000 people by 2020.

[TheNiche]

First of all, light rail does work and would work up here as well. The track could be run down that useless HOV lane on 45 for starters and cross the freeway at distinct locations such as Sawdust, Woodlands Pkwy and maybe Research Forest. If you look through the windows on The Woodlands Express, the buses are full both going to and from work (at rush hour of course). People are itching for more park and rides already and they are getting ready to put one on Woodlands Pkwy. I'm not sure exactly how the train could get into The Woodlands, but where there's a will there's a way. And as a resident of The Woodlands, I WANT LIGHTRAIL!

They'd better do something quick because as stated in my earlier post, The Woodlands will be 150,000+ in a couple years and Montgomery County will be getting close to 1,000,000 people by 2020.

Your suggestion that the HOV lane be used is an excellent example of how rail ROW could impose an opportunity cost by taking up valuable lane miles and displacing vehicles to already-congested mainlanes...never mind the ROW that would be utilized along the already-congested major thoroughfares within The Woodlands to provide transit to people that have intentionally been visually and physically located away from the major thoroughfares. Also never mind that everyone that does not and WILL NOT live in The Woodlands in 2020 because it is mostly built-out would seem to be excluded from your proposal.

A far better suggestion would be to align light/commuter rail along the railroad tracks near the Hardy Toll Road with spurs to the airport and Greenspoint...but why duplicate what busses can already do at a lower cost and less of an external impact to other travelers?

[wxman]

Well first of all, I was just giving an example. Nobody would be "left out" of my proposal. Secondly, the HOV lane is useless. And to say that displaceing a handfull of drivers in the morning or afternoon onto the mainlanes would not be enough to impact the rushour. Third, if they did away with the HOV all together and made it another lane, we'd probably be better off, not to mention the shoulders that is equal to that of 1 1/2 lanes in some parts. Fourth, having lightrail lay in place of the HOV is a good idea because people who utilize the Woodlands Express could opt to take the train therefore taking one more bus off the freeway. That goes for anybody on anyside of town. Fifth, the majority of "Houstonians" live outside the city limits. They'd better take the focus off the inner loop and look at the burbs. If Katy, Sugar Land, Bellaire, Pasadena and Clear Lake to name a few are growing like The Woodlands, we are in big trouble.

I'd also like to add that if the Hardy Toll Road would actually connect to DT, that might be a major player in congestion. But by the time drivers exit 610 fight the construction on there just to get back in line with gridlock, it just isn't worth it. Now I do know that plans are *in the works* (yeah, in 20 years maybe) to finish it through and to also extend it up to Conroe. That would do wonders for us.

[ricco67]

The (un) HOV is there because TWL just won't/can't pay taxes to metro to complete the system.

While a light/heavy rail connection to downtown would be awesome, currently it's not something that is doable at this time. What would really help, and can be implemented relatively quickly, would be a shuttle/BRT in a dedicated lane with stops at the beginning of various neighborhoods to bring people to the P&R to go to downtown or near the employment centers in the area.

If they are able to do something like that (within the next 5 years) traffic would be more tolerable and would be able to upgrade the system with minimal cost to a full fledged rail/BRT system that could connect to a commuter rail system.

[TheNiche]

Well first of all, I was just giving an example. Nobody would be "left out" of my proposal.

The nature of light rail is that stops occur at points. Its impact is for the most part limited to those points and areas within about a 1/4 mile of them...unless of course you tie an extensive shuttle service into each light rail station, and then you're talking about another expensive transit service that is also difficult to implement in the context of suburban sprawl...or you're talking about P&R lots, which would divert traffic to Woodlands Parkway. And that's just the set of problems that exist within The Woodlands--light rail certainly isn't feasible in those parts of Montgomery County that aren't The Woodlands, as they tend to be even more spread out and even basic bus service is infeasible--you aren't the only ones that live there, you know. ...you do know that, right?

Secondly, the HOV lane is useless. And to say that displaceing a handfull of drivers in the morning or afternoon onto the mainlanes would not be enough to impact the rushour. Third, if they did away with the HOV all together and made it another lane, we'd probably be better off, not to mention the shoulders that is equal to that of 1 1/2 lanes in some parts.

Folks from Texas Transportation Institute at A&M and just about any economist I've ever met would disagree with you. I strongly recommend that you verse yourself on the economic theory underlying HOV lanes and read their empirical studies on HOV lanes. Hint: one carpool in an HOV lane does not equate to a single car removed from the mainlanes. Also, freeways with HOV lanes tend to have better performance during traffic incidents than do freeways without HOVs, but yes, it would be optimal to have shoulders in addition to managed lanes.

Fourth, having lightrail lay in place of the HOV is a good idea because people who utilize the Woodlands Express could opt to take the train therefore taking one more bus off the freeway. That goes for anybody on anyside of town. Fifth, the majority of "Houstonians" live outside the city limits. They'd better take the focus off the inner loop and look at the burbs. If Katy, Sugar Land, Bellaire, Pasadena and Clear Lake to name a few are growing like The Woodlands, we are in big trouble.

Are you reading my posts? Do you understand that light/commuter rail cannot coexist with freeway traffic on the same right of way? Busses can.

Fifth, the majority of "Houstonians" live outside the city limits. They'd better take the focus off the inner loop and look at the burbs. If Katy, Sugar Land, Bellaire, Pasadena and Clear Lake to name a few are growing like The Woodlands, we are in big trouble.

I absolutely agree with you about this, but light rail is under no circumstances a viable suburban solution.

I'd also like to add that if the Hardy Toll Road would actually connect to DT, that might be a major player in congestion. But by the time drivers exit 610 fight the construction on there just to get back in line with gridlock, it just isn't worth it. Now I do know that plans are *in the works* (yeah, in 20 years maybe) to finish it through and to also extend it up to Conroe. That would do wonders for us.

The Hardy will be extended to downtown, and it is likely to happen reasonably soon. An extension to Conroe is still debatable just at this point, but I agree that they need to secure a ROW.

The (un) HOV is there because TWL just won't/can't pay taxes to metro to complete the system.

While a light/heavy rail connection to downtown would be awesome, currently it's not something that is doable at this time. What would really help, and can be implemented relatively quickly, would be a shuttle/BRT in a dedicated lane with stops at the beginning of various neighborhoods to bring people to the P&R to go to downtown or near the employment centers in the area.

If they are able to do something like that (within the next 5 years) traffic would be more tolerable and would be able to upgrade the system with minimal cost to a full fledged rail/BRT system that could connect to a commuter rail system.

If there were an entity that created a successful shuttle/BRT in a dedicated lane, how would a conversion to LRT (a big up-front investment) improve service enough to justify the cost and the years-long interruption of an already-successful service?

[wxman]

yes I do know Niche...thank for you smart ellic comment. What are we suposed to do, sit back and do nothing? Light rail won't work, buses aren't feasable and the mainlanes are conjested and hundreds of thousands of people continue to move in. I suppose everybody on this forum has opted for the status quo. What do you want to do? Widen the mainlanes so much you could use them as a landing stip for the Boeing 777? Gimme a break!

The only other option for traffic relief, besides the Hardy, would be to double deck the freeways. But I'm sure there is some reason why that wouldn't work either.

You'll have to forgive me, it's been a VERY long day at work.

[Guest danax]

This is one of the major reason we are moving. I don't do the parkway except to take the kids up to the fields on Budde. Market Street is not worth the 30 minute drive at any given time of the day. I don't even want to talk about rush hour. We really feel trapped back here. The Parkway is a high blood pressure drive.

I feel your pain but, as an observer, this is an interesting phenomenon, that is, having traffic jams within the suburbs, then with many still having to deal with a freeway rush hour commute on top of that. I see this as something that could set a new cycle in motion, that of suburbanites eventually repopulating the closer-in areas and, of more companies decentralizing to accomodate those workers who see the best years of their lives being spent suffering behind the steering wheel. I know this is already happening to some degree, but once all of the burbs get hit with the same situation, there'll be nowhere to go. That said, the poor performing schools outside the established burbs that will keep most suburbanites testing the limits of commuter tolerance. L.A. has shown that the limit is beyond 2 hours each way.

Commuter rail seems like the obvious solution but the funding will likely have to become a municipal priority and not a federal prayer.

[musicman]

I feel your pain but, as an observer, this is an interesting phenomenon, that is, having traffic jams within the suburbs, then with many still having to deal with a freeway rush hour commute on top of that.

i have both....the rush hr commute isn't bad because i'm headed in the opposite direction of traffic BUT d--n if the clear lake traffic isn't getting worse too! it really makes going in early and leaving early worth the effort!

[RedScare]

yes I do know Niche...thank for you smart ellic comment. What are we suposed to do, sit back and do nothing? Light rail won't work, buses aren't feasable and the mainlanes are conjested and hundreds of thousands of people continue to move in. I suppose everybody on this forum has opted for the status quo. What do you want to do? Widen the mainlanes so much you could use them as a landing stip for the Boeing 777? Gimme a break!

The only other option for traffic relief, besides the Hardy, would be to double deck the freeways. But I'm sure there is some reason why that wouldn't work either.

You'll have to forgive me, it's been a VERY long day at work.

How are busses not feasible? My brother has been taking the Woodlands Express into town for 10 years. When he got transferred to Greenway Plaza, the bus goes THERE, too.

[hbcu]

I always thought you need to develop roads, infrastructure, etc. before you put down thousands of households with no way out......it makes no sense to master plan a huge neighborhood with the only way out being a two-lane, poorly paved street with no shoulders and a 4-way stop sign

if rail ever did serve its rightful purpose....the problem I see is if I stay in the furthest area west in the Woodlands...outside of park and ride, will the day come where I can actually walk to my house to the rail station and leave the car in the garage?

when they drop that huge neighborhood in Magnolia soon...will 249 be somewhat up and running? Will 1488 be 4 lanes from 249 to I-45? Will they fix the odd turn you got to make on 1488 west coming from Waller?

[bachanon]

I always thought you need to develop roads, infrastructure, etc. before you put down thousands of households with no way out......it makes no sense to master plan a huge neighborhood with the only way out being a two-lane, poorly paved street with no shoulders and a 4-way stop sign

if rail ever did serve its rightful purpose....the problem I see is if I stay in the furthest area west in the Woodlands...outside of park and ride, will the day come where I can actually walk to my house to the rail station and leave the car in the garage?

when they drop that huge neighborhood in Magnolia soon...will 249 be somewhat up and running? Will 1488 be 4 lanes from 249 to I-45? Will they fix the odd turn you got to make on 1488 west coming from Waller?

what's really amazing is the people who will buy way back there and then complain how difficult it is to get around.

most of the homes for creekside and the neighborhood in magnolia will not be delivered until '08 and '09.

the 1488 widening is underway.

lake woodlands is an alternative route to the woodlands parkway, as are 2920 via gosling & kuykendahl.

traffic signals are underway or planned for all intersections along woodlands parkway and lake woodlands drive. "smart" traffic signals are in the works or already installed for all traffic lights in town center. i've heard that timed/sensored "smart" signals may be in the future for other main arteries. throughout the woodlands.

if the grand parkway segment is built south of the woodlands, it will relieve traffic along woodlands parkway.

[KatieDidIt]

what's really amazing is the people who will buy way back there and then complain how difficult it is to get around.

I can agree with that regaurding the ones who have bought in the last year. But four years ago, heck even last year, it was a breeze. 10-15 minutes tops to I-45.Who knew this place was going to pack in so fast and all the red lights were going to go in. The reason people want to be back here is because of Coulson-Tough and Deretchin Elem.

[musicman]

The reason people want to be back here is because of Coulson-Tough and Deretchin Elem.

moving for a school is one thing, but when location makes your life miserable EVERYDAY? it isn't worth it.

[ricco67]

I always thought you need to develop roads, infrastructure, etc. before you put down thousands of households with no way out......it makes no sense to master plan a huge neighborhood with the only way out being a two-lane, poorly paved street with no shoulders and a 4-way stop sign

if rail ever did serve its rightful purpose....the problem I see is if I stay in the furthest area west in the Woodlands...outside of park and ride, will the day come where I can actually walk to my house to the rail station and leave the car in the garage?

when they drop that huge neighborhood in Magnolia soon...will 249 be somewhat up and running? Will 1488 be 4 lanes from 249 to I-45? Will they fix the odd turn you got to make on 1488 west coming from Waller?

I am somewhat familiar with how TWL is layed out, so I figured that a trolly that stops at the entrances at some of the more remote neighborhoods would probably be best and then drop off (with perhaps a limited amount of parking for those that may be in a hurry) at a centralized "BRT" or Rail station to complete their trip from there.

The reason why I say "trolly" for the neighborhoods (and a few strip centers) is so people within the neighborhoods that don't have cars (Wives/Elderly/Housekeepers/kids/Broken down cars) are more able to at least hit the center to complete some basic errands as well as commuting to work either at the Center or in Houston Proper.

Conroe's attempt to annex TWL would not be in TWL's best interest, they (TWL) would be better off joining Houston, or at least pay Metro Taxes so they can get some transportation issues resolved.

TWL would be a city in it's own right, but it would it max out to a certain size before it would increase in density. Given the traffic and relative remoteness of the area, even THAT would peak at a certain number before it's own infrastructure would make it die on the vine.

Their very long term survival depends on a partnership, if not an annexation, with Houston.

[TheNiche]

yes I do know Niche...thank for you smart ellic comment. What are we suposed to do, sit back and do nothing? Light rail won't work, buses aren't feasable and the mainlanes are conjested and hundreds of thousands of people continue to move in. I suppose everybody on this forum has opted for the status quo. What do you want to do? Widen the mainlanes so much you could use them as a landing stip for the Boeing 777? Gimme a break!

The only other option for traffic relief, besides the Hardy, would be to double deck the freeways. But I'm sure there is some reason why that wouldn't work either.

You'll have to forgive me, it's been a VERY long day at work.

Doing nothing would be far preferable to spending hundreds of millions of dollars to make your situation worse. But no, you'll need to expand the width of your roads and highways, build grade-seperated intersections and flyovers, and perhaps expand the role of The Woodlands Express.

The biggest challenge will be improvements to the aterials.

I feel your pain but, as an observer, this is an interesting phenomenon, that is, having traffic jams within the suburbs, then with many still having to deal with a freeway rush hour commute on top of that. I see this as something that could set a new cycle in motion, that of suburbanites eventually repopulating the closer-in areas and, of more companies decentralizing to accomodate those workers who see the best years of their lives being spent suffering behind the steering wheel. I know this is already happening to some degree, but once all of the burbs get hit with the same situation, there'll be nowhere to go. That said, the poor performing schools outside the established burbs that will keep most suburbanites testing the limits of commuter tolerance. L.A. has shown that the limit is beyond 2 hours each way.

Commuter rail seems like the obvious solution but the funding will likely have to become a municipal priority and not a federal prayer.

The obvious solution is that most new employment growth will occur in the suburbs. Congestion as defined by the average velocity of movement of traffic during peak hours will continually get worse, but average commute time will either stay about the same or decline because most people will work closer to home.