Actual TOD in America

[lockmat]

For those who don't know. TOD is Transit Oriented Development. I was thinking about putting this in the 'meanwhile in the rest of the world' but thought this was a more relevant place.

My question is for those of you who are in the know or who travel often and see these kind of things.

Have y'all actually seen significant TOD develop along transit routes across America? Personally, I'm hoping that as Houston's LRT develops that TOD will exhist all along the lines. I'd like to live in a place like that, and obviously we don't have hardly if any of that happeneing now. Mostly b/c the lack of transit, duh.

In a related question, how does the market work with TOD and urbanity(?)? Is the only way for city planners and developers to know there is a demand for it is if the current condos, townhomes and such are being filled up right now? I mean, it's not like I can make my demand be known by going to a developer and telling him my high interest. I can't even show my demand by purchasing a home like that b/c I can't afford it. Most of these places are only affordable to people with a pretty good chunk of change. Is there ever going to be a market where urban and TOD will be available with those of lesser income?

I searched for a thread about this and couldn't find it. If there is one, just merge it, sorry.

[WesternGulf]

Washington DC's greatest streetwalls are usually lined up with the subway lines. Usually in older cities with the oldest transit systems such as Boston, DC, Philly, San Francisco, and Chicago, some of the greatest density is found above subway or rail lines.

Some of DC's high density areas above subway lines.

Edited January 12, 2007 by WesternGulf

[lockmat]

Washington DC's greatest streetwalls are usually lined up with the subway lines. Usually in older cities with the oldest transit systems such as Boston, DC, Philly, San Francisco, and Chicago, some of the greatest density is found above subway or rail lines.

Some of DC's high density areas above subway lines.

I guess I'm asking about cities that have just in recent years (10-20?) started developing TOD.

[WesternGulf]

San Diego and Portland are probably the modern posterchilds.

[TheNiche]

For those who don't know. TOD is Transit Oriented Development. I was thinking about putting this in the 'meanwhile in the rest of the world' but thought this was a more relevant place.

My question is for those of you who are in the know or who travel often and see these kind of things.

Have y'all actually seen significant TOD develop along transit routes across America? Personally, I'm hoping that as Houston's LRT develops that TOD will exhist all along the lines. I'd like to live in a place like that, and obviously we don't have hardly if any of that happeneing now. Mostly b/c the lack of transit, duh.

In a related question, how does the market work with TOD and urbanity(?)? Is the only way for city planners and developers to know there is a demand for it is if the current condos, townhomes and such are being filled up right now? I mean, it's not like I can make my demand be known by going to a developer and telling him my high interest. I can't even show my demand by purchasing a home like that b/c I can't afford it. Most of these places are only affordable to people with a pretty good chunk of change. Is there ever going to be a market where urban and TOD will be available with those of lesser income?

I searched for a thread about this and couldn't find it. If there is one, just merge it, sorry.

There are TODs out there. Off the top of my head, I know that they exist meaningfully in Washington D.C. and Portland, OR. And I'm sure that they've been attempted elsewhere.

TODs aren't affordable. They're new and typically are tall and built on extremely valuable land, hence expensive.

The market for them is very difficult to prove up, so they tend to be treated by lenders like other comparable projects when estimating financial feasibility. If the lender is reasonable about it, they'll add in some premium in terms of pricing or market capture, but it is usually a fairly arbitrary premium because there is no basis for comparison with anything like it within most markets and the lenders would rather err on the side of caution. If a lender likes the project but is still uncomfortable, they might comission a market study, in which case you might actually find that indeed someone does call you up and ask for you to rate your level of interest.

The Houston market has a few challenges on TOD, and IMO we did it all wrong in Midtown, where TOD was originally intended. First of all, TOD usually doesn't work by way of market forces alone...at least not very quickly. Quick TOD around transit takes land use controls or other special backroom deals. But by creating a TIRZ in Midtown, pumping so much investment into that area, and building the rail line, the City influenced investor expectations so greatly that land values shot up to the point that it became impossible even to build a midrise along the rail line. And where construction was possible, it had to be priced so high that only the very affluent were able to afford it. ...but the affluent urbanistas are a third wave that typically only come in after the initial waves build enough low- and medium-density housing to support a decent commercial base and clear up the riff raff. Those folks also typically have a higher propensity to drive and don't necessarily like mingling with bus riders, which our LRT couldn't exist without because we built it in an underpopulated area. But without that supportive middle-class and considering the extraordinarily high land prices, the number of units that can be developed and absorbed in Midtown in any given year was reduced to a trickle of what would've been possible without so much subsidy. Its growth was stunted before it even had the potential to reach a critical mass upon which further development at high prices could really snowball.

[lockmat]

There are TODs out there. Off the top of my head, I know that they exist meaningfully in Washington D.C. and Portland, OR. And I'm sure that they've been attempted elsewhere.

TODs aren't affordable. They're new and typically are tall and built on extremely valuable land, hence expensive.

I've posted the revitilization plans for the 3rd and 5th wards in the past. I don't know if you've had a chance to look at them, but although the residents still want less density, the plans still show they plan to build high to mid density mixed developments along where the LRT might pass through and along other major roads.

Do you think that just outside of those areas that are just on the fringes but not actually in those neighborhoods, are probably where middle class type TOD or mid to high density urban mixed development could happen?

[TheNiche]

Do you think that just outside of those areas that are just on the fringes but not actually in those neighborhoods, are probably where middle class type TOD or mid to high density urban mixed development could happen?

TOD is not a middle class kind of thing...unless you count a Tax Credit apartments adjacent to a bus stop to be TOD, and I don't. That's the kind of thing that would be most likely in the 5th Ward within the forseeable future, IMO. Third Ward still has a ways to go. They're on the first wave, and even that has seemed to stall out on the peripheries for the time being. Land owners seem willing to sell, but have watched as the townhomes with views of downtown from across 59 sold at really respectable prices and as METRO has narrowed down the routes for the University Line, then priced their land at levels that probably aren't justifiable quite yet...so that'll hurt it.

The East Downtown warehouse district seems to be gaining momentum recently. They started out with a couple of second-wave developments, such as Lofts at the Ballpark and Alexan Lofts, that didn't do so well. But now that they've got some townhomes of respectable value being developed (overflow from what should've been in Midtown), I think that there's soon going to be new potential for retail development. At first, it'll most likely be ugly strip centers, but it'll evolve with time. That'll eventually draw in another midrise development to test the waters, and if that goes well, more will follow. Only after the gritty character has been tamed somewhat by development on the ground should major investments in infrastructure and transit be made.

[Houston19514]

Washington DC's greatest streetwalls are usually lined up with the subway lines. Usually in older cities with the oldest transit systems such as Boston, DC, Philly, San Francisco, and Chicago, some of the greatest density is found above subway or rail lines.

In DC, it's more like the subway lines are lined with the greatest "streetwalls". DC's subway just opened in approximately 1980. Fro the most part, those dense areas were dense long before they started planning the subway.

[dfwcre8tive]

I pulled the following from the APTA website (http://www.apta.com/research/info/briefings/briefing_8.cfm):

Examples of Transit-Oriented Development in the U.S.

Below are listed several TOD projects that are representative of the abundance of TOD activity to be found across the U.S.

Oakland, CA

The city of Oakland's reports much progress in its plans and activities for developing its eight BART heavy rail stations into transit-oriented villages such as Fruitvale, a $100 million mixed use project that was once a dingy and dangerous neighborhood short of jobs and housing.

Websites: http://www.business2oakland.com/main/docum...OW.Spring03.pdf

http://www.fruitvalevillage.net/ (Fruitvale Transit Village)

Tampa, FL

Tampa's historic replica streetcar system, opened in October 2002, has linked its downtown business center with historic Ybor City and a new entertainment and residential district.

Website: http://www.tecolinestreetcar.org/main.htm

Hudson County, NJ

Hudson-Bergen Light Rail System and Economic Development on the Waterfront. Neal Fitzsimmons & Whitney Birch, November 2003.

As the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail System has been implemented, developers are investing in properties along the alignment, are showing more attention to the residential market, and are "selling" the amenities and connectivity that the light rail line provides.

Source: 9th National Light Rail Transit Conference, sponsored by APTA and TRB.

Website: http://trb.org/publications/circulars/ec058/ec058.pdf

Denver, CO

TOD is an integral part of the planning for Denver RTD's T-REX light rail system's 13 transit stations. Its stated goals are to build transit ridership and discourage sprawl.

Website: http://www.trexproject.com/trex_channels/b...ss/oriented.asp

Portland, OR

Tri-Met's Community Building Sourcebook includes descriptions of 19 bus or rail TOD projects in Portland, including Orenco Station, the largest master-planned community on the MAX system.

Website: http://www.trimet.org/inside/publications/pdf/sourcebook.pdf

Dallas, TX

Research by economists at the University of North Texas reports that the Dallas Area Rapid Transit is driving more than $3.3 billion in development throught its 45-mile light rail system.

Source: http://www.dart.org/WeinsteinDARTDevelopment2005.pdf

Minneapolis, MN

All along Metro Transit's Hiawatha Line light rail, which began revenue service in June, 2004, are springing up examples of new housing and commercial development in a corridor that once had large tracts of vacant and under-utilized land. Over the last five years, more than 5,400 new housing units have been built within walking distance of the rail line, with another 7,000 units on the drawing board.

Source: http://www.metrocouncil.org/planning/sor2006/sor2006.htm

[lockmat]

TOD is not a middle class kind of thing...unless you count a Tax Credit apartments adjacent to a bus stop to be TOD, and I don't. That's the kind of thing that would be most likely in the 5th Ward within the forseeable future, IMO. Third Ward still has a ways to go. They're on the first wave, and even that has seemed to stall out on the peripheries for the time being. Land owners seem willing to sell, but have watched as the townhomes with views of downtown from across 59 sold at really respectable prices and as METRO has narrowed down the routes for the University Line, then priced their land at levels that probably aren't justifiable quite yet...so that'll hurt it.

The East Downtown warehouse district seems to be gaining momentum recently. They started out with a couple of second-wave developments, such as Lofts at the Ballpark and Alexan Lofts, that didn't do so well. But now that they've got some townhomes of respectable value being developed (overflow from what should've been in Midtown), I think that there's soon going to be new potential for retail development. At first, it'll most likely be ugly strip centers, but it'll evolve with time. That'll eventually draw in another midrise development to test the waters, and if that goes well, more will follow. Only after the gritty character has been tamed somewhat by development on the ground should major investments in infrastructure and transit be made.

Is TOD not a middle class thing because for the most part it's brand new development when it happens? And what about cities that have established transit like NYC, Boston etc...is housing close to stations an expensive thing there too? I mean, there are poorer neighborhoods that have stations too of course. It just seems like if rail is gonna go through a poor neighborhood like one of the wards, then that area would keep close to its former economic development. I know the city isn't trying to weed those people out, just revitalize it.

And is TOD just not a middle class thing here because it's not very prevelant and limited so far(In Houston)? And one last question...If TOD is expensive, do you think they'll build middle class urban developments at least a couple blocks away and not right on top of the stations where the more affluent residences might be?

I know it's a million questions, but maybe some of you can split the load

Or if you guys have a book that concentrates on that subject, I'd love know what it is so I can read it. Then maybe I won't ask so many questions.

Thanks

I pulled the following from the APTA website (http://www.apta.com/research/info/briefings/briefing_8.cfm):

Examples of Transit-Oriented Development in the U.S.

Below are listed several TOD projects that are representative of the abundance of TOD activity to be found across the U.S.

And thanks for the links. I'll def. check 'em out.

Edited January 12, 2007 by lockmat

[lockmat]

Niche...this fruitvalevillage says it has "Forty-seven units of mixed-income housing". Kinda sucks that its not that many units, but do you think that "mixed-income" is the exception to the rule?

I'm just hoping that the City of Houston and it's developers don't have their head in the sand and miss this trend that's going on around the nation.

[TheNiche]

Is TOD not a middle class thing because for the most part it's brand new development when it happens? And what about cities that have established transit like NYC, Boston etc...is housing close to stations an expensive thing there too? I mean, there are poorer neighborhoods that have stations too of course. It just seems like if rail is gonna go through a poor neighborhood like one of the wards, then that area would keep close to its former economic development. I know the city isn't trying to weed those people out, just revitalize it.

And is TOD just not a middle class thing here because it's not very prevelant and limited so far? And one last question...If TOD is expensive, do you think they'll build middle class urban developments at least a couple blocks away and not right on top of the stations where the more affluent residences might be?

I know it's a million questions, but maybe some of you can split the load

Or if you guys have a book that concentrates on that subject, I'd love know what it is so I can read it. Then maybe I won't ask so many questions.

Thanks

Yeah, make no mistake about it: older TOD developments can become more affordable with time, but creating new ones requires a pretty affluent buyer. When rail comes through, land prices go up as do rental rates. Anybody not tied down gets swept away. Owner-occupants and landlords will then either stick around or cash out at their leisure (although sometimes property taxes displace even well-established residents, too).

The further away from a station, the less of a price impact is had as a result of the LRT, so yes, something more affordable is more reasonable at a distance.

Niche...this fruitvalevillage says it has "Forty-seven units of mixed-income housing". Kinda sucks that its not that many units, but do you think that "mixed-income" is the exception to the rule?

Yeah, that's either subsidized or mandated by government decree.

[lockmat]

know of any plans for Houston to continue trying to implement TOD? I thought the report for the richmond line has mentions of TOD all throughout it. It may even call the whole study a TOD, I think.

If they continue building LRT and don't incoroprate TOD, the lines will not come close to their full potential.

And who decides to implement TOD anyway? The city or the market/developers?

[TheNiche]

know of any plans for Houston to continue trying to implement TOD? I thought the report for the richmond line has mentions of TOD all throughout it. It may even call the whole study a TOD, I think.

If they continue building LRT and don't incoroprate TOD, the lines will not come close to their full potential.

And who decides to implement TOD anyway? The city or the market/developers?

Metro's HQ building at the Downtown TC might qualify as transit-oriented development, but it does nothing to bolster the residential population along the line. Morris Architects tried to generate enough interest to justify a TOD in Midtown, but failed. They also couldn't do anything with Central Square because the a-hole owner wouldn't sell at a reasonable price. So now they're in First City Tower. The TMC Transit Center project got nixed by TMC, Inc. in a confounded and wasteful process. It sounds like there might be some government-backed TOD at Fannin South. So the bottom line is that the private sector has only really built anything where it probably would've been built anyway, and government likes the LRT because it justifies their own actions. Atlanta has had a similar result with MARTA.

The City of Houston has no say over proposals for new development unless they are building office space for their own purposes. METRO has limited power of eminent domain and could be much more proactive about it if they wanted to be, but they're hurting for political capital right now and aren't going to take on that fight any time soon. They've also got land in several places near their transit centers, most notably at Wheeler, the TMC, and Fannin South at which they could conceivably develop TOD...but so far, they've botched it and lost a lot of trust from the private sector on the TMC Transit Center fiasco.

I've contemplated several ways that they might stimulate more immediate TOD projects. One idea is to plan to put lines down a corridor and not place stops anywhere except at the most critical places, agreeing on a first-come-first-serve approach to placement of less critical stops. If they make all the landowners compete for ideal stop placement by agreeing to develop TOD even as the line is being built, I think that they might get a really strong response from the private sector. I'm sure that there are other ways, though, short of using eminent domain.

[rantanamo]

TOD in Dallas that's possible, existing, planned or under construction:

Park Lane Place(under construction)

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=2075

Jefferson at the West End(planned)

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=2333

Cityville at Southwestern Medical Center(Under Construction)

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=4282

Cityplace West/West Village area(existing/under construction and best example of a nodal neighborhood type TOD in Dallas)

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=6172

Texas Stadium redevlopment(planning stages)

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3097

Mockingbird Station(existing and best example of a singular TOD development in Dallas)

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthre...ingbird+Station

The Venue in Richardson(under construction) and other Galatyn Park Station development(planned)

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=4813

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=6514

Las Colinas in Irving(existing, planned and under construction as far as TOD goes)

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthre...age=1&pp=50

Downtown Garland(planning stages)

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3857

Downtown Plano(existing)

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthre...astside+Village

It could be argued that once Victory is at or near finish-out that it is transit oriented. Not necessarily built because of rail, but will be very convenient to rail after phase IV.

[Houston19514]

The TMC Transit Center project got nixed by TMC, Inc. in a confounded and wasteful process.

Did I miss something? When did the TMC Transit Center mixed-use project die?

[KinkaidAlum]

Hadn't heard that either. I thought Transwestern was very committed to the TMC project. Anyone know what happened?

[TheNiche]

Did I miss something? When did the TMC Transit Center mixed-use project die?

The TMC, Inc. had veto power over it. Long story short, they used it...but only after METRO made the private sector submit two rounds of qualifications and proposals, which altogether, probably cost several million dollars worth of planning and research. It is a huge black eye for METRO's credibility because the fault was basically in the communication process between all the stakeholders, which METRO was responsible for.

It also didn't help that the pilings on the existing Transit Center structure, which were supposed to be built for a building of eight stories in height, were inadequately engineered and needed to be dug out and completely replaced for any viable TOD project. Chalk that up to a few more million dollars of capital expenditure that are essentially wasted.

Edited January 15, 2007 by TheNiche

[Houston19514]

The TMC, Inc. had veto power over it. Long story short, they used it...but only after METRO made the private sector submit two rounds of qualifications and proposals, which altogether, probably cost several million dollars worth of planning and research. It is a huge black eye for METRO's credibility because the fault was basically in the communication process between all the stakeholders, which METRO was responsible for.

It also didn't help that the pilings on the existing Transit Center structure, which were supposed to be built for a building of eight stories in height, were inadequately engineered and needed to be dug out and completely replaced for any viable TOD project. Chalk that up to a few more million dollars of capital expenditure that are essentially wasted.

Source?

Edited January 16, 2007 by Houston19514

[TheNiche]

Source?

Me.

I'm sorry that I can't say much further except to say that I was involved in the matter. Perhaps one day my identity will be revealed...but with 2,900+ posts to date, many controversial, I'd rather not kill my chances at holding a political office in the far-flung future.

[Houston19514]

Me.

I'm sorry that I can't say much further except to say that I was involved in the matter. Perhaps one day my identity will be revealed...but with 2,900+ posts to date, many controversial, I'd rather not kill my chances at holding a political office in the far-flung future.

Okay. But why would TMC have a "veto", or is that a bit of an exaggeration? I do recall a number of the TMC member institutions were concerned about the traffic patterns caused by the development, but that doesn't make a veto.

[nmainguy]

Is TOD not a middle class thing because for the most part it's brand new development when it happens? And what about cities that have established transit like NYC,

You ask great questions, lock. New Yorkers are a different breed from most so they may not be the best example of the everyday commuter. They are used to walking to a train or subway platform more-so than others in most urban areas. We have a place the East Side and walk about 9 blocks to a subway station. My neice lives in a lower to middle-class neighborhood in Astoria Queens and takes the subway daily to Manhattan for her job and auditions-and to see her favorite uncle when I'm there! So I wouldn't use the NYC model as a template for the rest of the country. It's quite efficient in moving locals in and about the city just as LRT could be in the inner loop

BTW, I'm sorry to hear from a HAIF buddy you were brow-beaten on the Richmond Rail site for being inquisitive. Just keep your eye on the prize.

[nmainguy]

Okay. But why would TMC have a "veto", or is that a bit of an exaggeration? I do recall a number of the TMC member institutions were concerned about the traffic patterns caused by the development, but that doesn't make a veto.

Ummm...that may be because a certain someone who is so distainful of politicians now hints he or she may be one in the "far-flung future"?

TMC may or may not have a veto-my educated quess is not-but there are far more verifiable sources for accurate information than what has been posted in this thread.

[JSB]

Is TOD not a middle class thing because for the most part it's brand new development when it happens? And what about cities that have established transit like NYC, Boston etc...is housing close to stations an expensive thing there too? I mean, there are poorer neighborhoods that have stations too of course. It just seems like if rail is gonna go through a poor neighborhood like one of the wards, then that area would keep close to its former economic development. I know the city isn't trying to weed those people out, just revitalize it.

And is TOD just not a middle class thing here because it's not very prevelant and limited so far(In Houston)? And one last question...If TOD is expensive, do you think they'll build middle class urban developments at least a couple blocks away and not right on top of the stations where the more affluent residences might be?

I know it's a million questions, but maybe some of you can split the load

Or if you guys have a book that concentrates on that subject, I'd love know what it is so I can read it. Then maybe I won't ask so many questions.

Comparing development in Houston to development in a much denser Northeastern city like Washington is difficult. In Washington, driving into the city is much worse, because the freeway system is more limited and congested, parking is more scarce and expensive and housing is more expensive even in the suburbs. It is definitely much more expensive to buy housing near the Metro, whether in the middle of Washington or way out in the suburbs. The alternatives for inexpensive living and commuting are better in Houston.

[lockmat]

Comparing development in Houston to development in a much denser Northeastern city like Washington is difficult. In Washington, driving into the city is much worse, because the freeway system is more limited and congested, parking is more scarce and expensive and housing is more expensive even in the suburbs. It is definitely much more expensive to buy housing near the Metro, whether in the middle of Washington or way out in the suburbs. The alternatives for inexpensive living and commuting are better in Houston.

Yeah, I know the cities aren't the same, but I guess the main point of my questions is this. Is TOD housing anywhere, whether that be Portland, LA, or NY city or even TOD that's closer to the 'burbs...Is it the general rule that TOD is always more expensive close to stations and less expensive the further from the station you go?

I'm pretty sure Niche answered my quesetion on that and in general, said yes.

It just seems like the exceptions would be stations that are located in poorer neighborhoods, but I could be wrong.

[musicman]

It just seems like if rail is gonna go through a poor neighborhood like one of the wards, then that area would keep close to its former economic development. I know the city isn't trying to weed those people out, just revitalize it.

If the old, urban, poor neighborhood you reference is basically built out and the train line is added. where is the revitalization going to occur specifically?

[TheNiche]

Okay. But why would TMC have a "veto", or is that a bit of an exaggeration? I do recall a number of the TMC member institutions were concerned about the traffic patterns caused by the development, but that doesn't make a veto.

Well that I can explain. The site of the Transit Center was formerly owned by the TMC, Inc. As part of the agreement to sell the property to METRO, they included language that permitted them veto power over anything built on the site.

[JSB]

Yeah, I know the cities aren't the same, but I guess the main point of my questions is this. Is TOD housing anywhere, whether that be Portland, LA, or NY city or even TOD that's closer to the 'burbs...Is it the general rule that TOD is always more expensive close to stations and less expensive the further from the station you go?

I'm pretty sure Niche answered my quesetion on that and in general, said yes.

It just seems like the exceptions would be stations that are located in poorer neighborhoods, but I could be wrong.

I guess that in most if not all cities, it depends on the alternatives, which should drive the demand for living next to transit that takes you where you want to go. If there is no particular demand for housing next to a rail line that takes you into downtown, because the alternatives are easy or cheap, then I suspect that it would not necessarily be more expensive to live there.

Consider the alternatives in Houston for someone who works downtown:

1) Live outside downtown and take MetroRail to work.

2) Live downtown.

3) Live outside downtown and take a bus to work.

4) Live outside downtown and drive to work.

The demand for (1) is going to depend on the cost, availability and ease of (2), (3) and (4).

Edited January 16, 2007 by JSB

[TheNiche]

Ummm...that may be because a certain someone who is so distainful of politicians now hints he or she may be one in the "far-flung future"?

TMC may or may not have a veto-my educated quess is not-but there are far more verifiable sources for accurate information than what has been posted in this thread.

I'm young. I don't know what my future holds in store for me. But I've had to develop a network of contacts throughout the public, private, and even non-profit sectors over the last several years, and without the cooperation of those people (with whom I'm frequently ideologically opposed), I cannot make a living. The thought has occured to me that my services might be bought off by the governmental dark side at some point if the price is sufficient to compensate for the negative nonpecuniary aspects of the job.

Perceived neutrality is a good thing...a reputation for being a shrill partisan hack is not. And with as much volume of input as is stored on HAIF, someone like yourself could very easily ruin me in both the private and public realms. This is why I will not disclose my source. It is easily tracable back to me.

[lockmat]

If the old, urban, poor neighborhood you reference is basically built out and the train line is added. where is the revitalization going to occur specifically?

You know what musicman, I think my head is spinning. For some reason I thought LRT might run through or on the border of the 3rd or 5th ward. Is it? Scott runs right along 5th, which I believe is one of the LRT options, but I'm not sure if it's that exact stretch that runs along that neighborhood that's in the plans. I scanned both the 3rd and 5th redevelopment plans again and didn't see anything about LRT. I may have gotten confused and mixed up LRT with major thoroughfares that run through them. Can anyone help me out on that?

But if it does in fact run through one of them, hah, may bad...this is what I was thinkin:

Well, I don't know if the neighborhood will be build "out." I was just thinking that if city planners do what their plans say, they intend to kind of revitalize those specific neighborhoods for those current residents, not for new ones to move in.

My thought that if a rail is built through those neighborhoods, that developement for outsiders would happen just outside those neighborhoods.

But the revitalization you're asking me of is actually inside the neighborhoods, everywhere.

Here are links to the documents for the 3rd and 5th ward redevelopment plans:

http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/ComPlann...WardFullDoc.pdf

http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/ComPlann...WardFullDoc.pdf

Hope I understood your question correctly. If not, I nullified the purpose of this post.