METRORail University Line

[musicman]

If you took the number of people who would of switched there vote from yes to no because of Richmond, it would have still passed. Some how I find it hard to believe that the anti-rail people actually voted yes.

it wasn't about rail vs no rail. METRO preferred to present this as an overall plan because they knew their support for rail alone would be weak because it will only serve a small portion of the population vs their total serve area. they had to group bus/hov/rail/etc to the election so they would get as much support as possible.

[CDeb]

it wasn't about rail vs no rail. METRO preferred to present this as an overall plan because they knew their support for rail alone would be weak because it will only serve a small portion of the population vs their total serve area. they had to group bus/hov/rail/etc to the election so they would get as much support as possible.

They did it exactly as it should have been done. It's about the overall system, not just the rail system.

[musicman]

They did it exactly as it should have been done. It's about the overall system, not just the rail system.

but it is the changes that have been made since the vote that have caused the backlash. not sure if METRO had a REAL plan.

[JJxvi]

One thing that confuses me about the "ballot wording" arguments...Westpark the street doesnt exist until Kirby...what street is the "Westpark corridor" between downtown and Kirby?

[KinkaidAlum]

One thing that confuses me about the "ballot wording" arguments...Westpark the street doesnt exist until Kirby...what street is the "Westpark corridor" between downtown and Kirby?

Exactly.

It scares me to think that so many wealthy white folks from Afton Oaks would have such difficulty with reading comprehension.

[CDeb]

Exactly.

It scares me to think that so many wealthy white folks from Afton Oaks would have such difficulty with reading comprehension.

I'm guessing it's more about having any knife in a gunfight.

[AftonAg]

If you took the number of people who would of switched there vote from yes to no because of Richmond, it would have still passed. Some how I find it hard to believe that the anti-rail people actually voted yes. Face the facts, Metro got what they wanted and you and your group help make them look like they compromised to get it. Suckers.

As long as we are talking facts I suppose you have some data to back your first statement up. I would be most interested to know how that data was gathered and by whom. I think it is just speculation or wishful thinking on your part.In your last statement you give METRO far too much credit - I doubt that anyone believes that METRO was farsighted enough to play the Houston public as you suggest. The other fallcy in that last statemnet is that you assume like so many others have that the anti rail coalition is just AO - IT IS MUCH MORE!

I'm guessing it's more about having any knife in a gunfight.

of course you are ASS/U/MING that every AO voter took the time to read every word on the ballot - I doubt that was the case.

[Jax]

There is some interesting info about voters along Richmond - beore and after Culberson / Wong voiced their anti-rail views

here,

and here.

[AftonAg]

There is some interesting info about voters along Richmond - beore and after Culberson / Wong voiced their anti-rail views

here,

and here.

The links are to sites that most folks would consider biased and all of the information is less than a year old, and the referendum was in 2002 as I recall. This hardly verifies your statement Jax . . . . but at least you went to the trouble of searching for the facts and for that I applaud you.

[musicman]

There is some interesting info about voters along Richmond - beore and after Culberson / Wong voiced their anti-rail views

here,

and here.

these are almost a yr old now. are these somehow related to the meeting yesterday?

[Jax]

I thought about not posting it because I knew you would think it was biased. I think the numbers are accurate though, whether you take the discussion seriously or not.

Nope, not related to the meeting yesterday, but relevant to the discussion I thought (or at least interesting). if not, just disregard them.

Edited August 28, 2007 by Jax

[musicman]

I thought about not posting it because I knew you would think it was biased.

Nope, not related to the meeting yesterday, but relevant to the discussion I thought (or at least interesting). if not, just disregard them.

CTC is biased. go to a couple of their meetings and find out. disregarding.

[CDeb]

of course you are ASS/U/MING that every AO voter took the time to read every word on the ballot - I doubt that was the case.

No, I am assuming that the good citizens of AO are following the natural human tendency to grasp at any straw, no matter how ludicrous, to oppose something deemed undesirable.

[TheNiche]

One thing that confuses me about the "ballot wording" arguments...Westpark the street doesnt exist until Kirby...what street is the "Westpark corridor" between downtown and Kirby?

Exactly.

You are each missing the point as much as they are. If you read the ballot, METRO is effectively given the authority to put the line wherever they want.

Whatever name they gave to the route on the ballot never mattered in any capacity. If JJxvi raises the question about "what street is the "Westpark corridor" between downtown and Kirby," the answer is that there is no street; and perhaps a retort would be that as such there should be no rail there because there is no corridor by that name. But that isn't the answer. The name doesn't matter...except insofar as it confused stupid or careless voters.

Edited August 28, 2007 by TheNiche

[wakester]

As long as we are talking facts I suppose you have some data to back your first statement up. I would be most interested to know how that data was gathered and by whom. I think it is just speculation or wishful thinking on your part.In your last statement you give METRO far too much credit - I doubt that anyone believes that METRO was farsighted enough to play the Houston public as you suggest. The other fallcy in that last statemnet is that you assume like so many others have that the anti rail coalition is just AO - IT IS MUCH MORE!of course you are ASS/U/MING that every AO voter took the time to read every word on the ballot - I doubt that was the case.

Data, you want data to back up my argument? I will refer you to post # 2888 :

And as for providing Links for Highway6 I am not going to do your research

Not sure where you got that I was ASS/U/MING ( really what is that suppose to mean? I guess you are calling me an ASS? really not sure. Maybe I should ask my 13 year old nephew, that is around his maturity level) OK that I was assuming that every AO took time to read the ballot? I would say that you are not really putting fellow AOers in a very good light. They vote for things without knowing what they are voting for? Maybe what really happen is that your fellow AOers meant to vote NO and actually voted for Pat Buchanan. I would demand a recount. Check for pregnant chads!

[TheNiche]

If you took the number of people who would of switched there vote from yes to no because of Richmond, it would have still passed. Some how I find it hard to believe that the anti-rail people actually voted yes.

A small fraction of people outside of the area of contention tend to change their vote if it appears as though a powerful government agency is trying to ramrod something down a neighborhood's throat. Although they are relatively few in number, throughout METRO's service area, it could very well have tipped the scales. All it would've taken to threaten the outcome was 2% of voters. When you're playing with those margins, any tiny little bit of spin becomes highly valuable.

1) Metro is going to get the route that it wants. Down Richmond to Greenway plaza. If anything, the Afton Oaks route was a "Red Herring" to make the Richmond-Cummins-Westpark route look like a compromise.

2) You and the anti-rail group are a little full of yourself if you think that the townhall meetings and different route proposals were because of you. Hello, it is called the law. They are required to do it.

Face the facts, Metro got what they wanted and you and your group help make them look like they compromised to get it. Suckers.

I've been saying this for a long time. Glad to see someone caught on to it. METRO isn't always very good at transit, but they are profoundly good at politics.

[AftonAg]

CTC is biased. go to a couple of their meetings and find out. disregarding.

I have been to a CTC meeting and that is where I drew my conclusion. Like it or not Musicman I am entitled to my own opinion - and sometimes it doesn't match yours

[AftonAg]

Data, you want data to back up my argument? I will refer you to post # 2888 :

Not sure where you got that I was ASS/U/MING ( really what is that suppose to mean? I guess you are calling me an ASS? really not sure. Maybe I should ask my 13 year old nephew, that is around his maturity level) OK that I was assuming that every AO took time to read the ballot? I would say that you are not really putting fellow AOers in a very good light. They vote for things without knowing what they are voting for? Maybe what really happen is that your fellow AOers meant to vote NO and actually voted for Pat Buchanan. I would demand a recount. Check for pregnant chads!

I can only speak for those that I was actually in the voting booth with as to whether or not they read everything, and/or understood everything on the ballot. . . . . . those meaning me. I seriously doubt that every AO resident that voted read all of it and/or understood all of it. If that reflects poorly on my neighborhood so be it. All you have to do is read some of the posts on here (or any other forum) to realize that the number of idiots among the general population is a surprisingly high percentage. I am quite certain that Niche, Musicman and a few of the other posters on here that I respect probably feel the same way. I am also certain that there is a large number of posters on here that think I am an idiot - while they may deny it, most of them feel that way because I don't agree with the majority opinion of this post.

[musicman]

I have been to a CTC meeting and that is where I drew my conclusion. Like it or not Musicman I am entitled to my own opinion - and sometimes it doesn't match yours

i was responding to jax, not you. and i agree we are entitled to our own opinions. never thought otherwise.

[JJxvi]

You are each missing the point as much as they are. If you read the ballot, METRO is effectively given the authority to put the line wherever they want.

Whatever name they gave to the route on the ballot never mattered in any capacity. If JJxvi raises the question about "what street is the "Westpark corridor" between downtown and Kirby," the answer is that there is no street; and perhaps a retort would be that as such there should be no rail there because there is no corridor by that name. But that isn't the answer. The name doesn't matter...except insofar as it confused stupid or careless voters.

I am not missing the point. You are stating exactly what my belief is, my question is only to show that claims that the ballot specified Westpark are ridiculous. The specific wording in the ballot indicated we were authorizing Metro to build a line from "Wheeler Station to Hillcroft Transit Center." The name/heading for this corridor was given as "4. WESTPARK"

Westpark was the name of the corridor because the Hilcroft Park and Ride is the destination (ie on Westpark) not because it was supposed to travel completely on Westpark Dr, which nevertheless is impossible since westpark dr does not travel from Hilcroft Transit Center all the way into downtown at Wheeler Station. Another street or ROW would have to be used for the eastern section of the "WESTPARK" line. A street like Richmond, maybe since coincidentally Wheeler sStation is at Main St and Richmond/Wheeler...

Edited August 28, 2007 by JJxvi

[KinkaidAlum]

The links are to sites that most folks would consider biased and all of the information is less than a year old, and the referendum was in 2002 as I recall. This hardly verifies your statement Jax . . . . but at least you went to the trouble of searching for the facts and for that I applaud you.

Only AftonAg would think ELECTION RESULTS are inherently biased. Maybe you think local elections should have an electoral college too?

You are each missing the point as much as they are. If you read the ballot, METRO is effectively given the authority to put the line wherever they want.Whatever name they gave to the route on the ballot never mattered in any capacity. If JJxvi raises the question about "what street is the "Westpark corridor" between downtown and Kirby," the answer is that there is no street; and perhaps a retort would be that as such there should be no rail there because there is no corridor by that name. But that isn't the answer. The name doesn't matter...except insofar as it confused stupid or careless voters.

Wow. Did his factitiousness really go that far over your head?

[AftonAg]

i was responding to jax, not you. and i agree we are entitled to our own opinions. never thought otherwise.

Sorry Musicman my mistake. That you would have thought otherwise was a surprise to me as you are one of the few on here that sees clearly the majority of the time.

[AftonAg]

I can only speak for those that I was actually in the voting booth with as to whether or not they read everything, and/or understood everything on the ballot. . . . . . those meaning me. I seriously doubt that every AO resident that voted read all of it and/or understood all of it. If that reflects poorly on my neighborhood so be it. All you have to do is read some of the posts on here (or any other forum) to realize that the number of idiots among the general population is a surprisingly high percentage. I am quite certain that Niche, Musicman and a few of the other posters on here that I respect probably feel the same way. I am also certain that there is a large number of posters on here that think I am an idiot - while they may deny it, most of them feel that way because I don't agree with the majority opinion of this post.

The ASS/U/MING is a very old joke, and slightly out of context. What it means is this - when ever one assumes they make an Ass of u or me. The point is that assumptions are always dangerous to base an argument on - if the assumption is wrong the argument is then pointless.

[AftonAg]

Only AftonAg would think ELECTION RESULTS are inherently biased. Maybe you think local elections should have an electoral college too?Wow. Did his factitiousness really go that far over your head?

Election results are fact, no further discussion required. So having said that you must agree that George Bush soundly defeated Gore and won the 2000 Presidential election fair and square right? no bias, just fact. Yet you boldly state that only I would think Election Results are inherently biased. Go on with your righteous self.

[TheNiche]

Wow. Did his factitiousness really go that far over your head?

Apparently yes. I fail to see how his remarks were at all factitious.

He argued poorly. The issue is not that a corridor named in the ballot does not exist. It is that the name doesn't matter.

You replied by saying "exactly," but he was inexact.

[nmainguy]

I am also certain that there is a large number of posters on here that think I am an idiot -

Thank you for the opportunity to agree. Yes, I think you are an uninformed imposter; i.e idiot-your word. Again you have choosen to prove yourself to be the fraud you introduced yourself as: someone with little or no knowledge of the neighborhood you claim to live in; woefully lacking in any facts regarding ballot process and a consistant pattern of immature lanquage that makes even the most simpleton among the HAIFarati question your verasity. The only thing more pathetic is the credibility given you by some of your enabelers.

Reply or not-I don't subscribe to forums any longer.

[AftonAg]

Thank you for the opportunity to agree. Yes, I think you are an uninformed imposter; i.e idiot-your word. Again you have choosen to prove yourself to be the fraud you introduced yourself as: someone with little or no knowledge of the neighborhood you claim to live in; woefully lacking in any facts regarding ballot process and a consistant pattern of immature lanquage that makes even the most simpleton among the HAIFarati question your verasity. The only thing more pathetic is the credibility given you by some of your enabelers.

Reply or not-I don't subscribe to forums any longer.

I must point out that Nmainguy was caught posting under the alias Aftonowl. Claiming to live in Afton Oaks and be a pro rail advocate. A rather nasty flame war ensued the details of which aren't worth repeating. I will not dignify his comments further as it might lend credibility to a real imposter.

[Transit Nut]

Did anyone else attend yesterday's meeting? One of the earlier posts said that the pro-Richmond comments outnumbered the against comments by about 10 to 1, but the Chronicle said it was about even. Anyone have a 3rd point of view?

I'm also surprised that I couldn't find any coverage by the 3 main TV stations. Maybe it was due to the Astros' news.

[AftonAg]

Apparently yes. I fail to see how his remarks were at all factitious.He argued poorly. The issue is not that a corridor named in the ballot does not exist. It is that the name doesn't matter.You replied by saying "exactly," but he was inexact.

Regardless of the wording, existence of a Westpark corridor etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum - The ballot read Westpark corridor and the very instant that METRO announced that the Westpark corridor really meant Richmond a hue and cry went up immediately from the anti rail on richmond coalition, there wasn't any strategizing, no attack plan - just a cry of foul. A cry that resonates to this day and will continue to resonate to the day the first train turns south on Cummins . . . . .

Did anyone else attend yesterday's meeting? One of the earlier posts said that the pro-Richmond comments outnumbered the against comments by about 10 to 1, but the Chronicle said it was about even. Anyone have a 3rd point of view?I'm also surprised that I couldn't find any coverage by the 3 main TV stations. Maybe it was due to the Astros' news.

The comments were about even - perhaps a posters report was biased? No TV because there was no bloodshed, there was no violence, and all in all it was a rather calm and respectful group which translates to boring to the big 3. Don't even try it - I already said I didn't go to the meeting, but that doesn't mean that I haven't spoken to several of the anti's (people that I trust to be truthful) that were at the meeting just to get their perspective.

[Jeebus]

I must point out that Nmainguy was caught posting under the alias Aftonowl. Claiming to live in Afton Oaks and be a pro rail advocate. A rather nasty flame war ensued the details of which aren't worth repeating. I will not dignify his comments further as it might lend credibility to a real imposter.

I did a search for a member named Aftonowl so I could read these flame-war posts you refer to. I found nothing though. What page was this flame war on?