Our Own Fair Spring

[Gary]

Aside from the tasteless comments made earlier, I don't care what color either the victim or the perpetrator was. This is a horrible crime that shows two people that have no business in our society. To even consider something like this shows no concience regardless of the reasoning.

I don't want to start a death penalty thread (I really don't), but this is one of those cases when I firmly believe in it. Of course that is if this guy dies.

Damn this kind of stuff ticks me off!!!!

[RedScare]

agree, I think we are too close in for them to divuldge all the details yet.

You are right about the holes though DJ, I hadn't noticed. They did arrest the two #$%#$'rs pretty quickly though...if no one knew until 10 hours later, how would they have found out who did it so quickly?

I think the hate crime/no hate crime will probably be determined once all the parties (judges and lawyers and such) are picked. Isn't that a fairly political thing??? The article said it wouldn't tack on any extra time (why not???) so, is it a matter of what "spin" the lawyers want to put on things?

A Hate Crime is not a crime in and of itself. It is an additional allegation, which, if proven, bumps the punishment for the original crime up one level. So, if the original crime is Aggravated Assault, the punishment is 2-10 years. If the Hate Crime allegation is proven, it goes to 2-20 years.

In this case, the defendants are charged with Aggravated Sexual Assault, with a possible 5-99 year punishment. It cannot go any higher, so as west20th said, the Hate Crime allegation is largely symbolic. In fact, it adds one more thing for the DA to prove, so why make your job tougher. If the victim dies, it becomes Capital Murder, and you can't get any higher than that, either.

There are some political arguments around the Hate Crime statute, but I don't think that will affect this case. I also wonder about the Hate Crime aspect, since it appears that the assault started for an unrelated reason. Certainly, all of the slurs and other aggravating facts will be brought out, regardless of the Hate Crime allegation, so the jury would know everything either way. I do hope that political groups don't get to caught up in the legal terminology, and instead direct their anger at those who deserve it.

[Gary]

I do hope that political groups don't get to caught up in the legal terminology, and instead direct their anger at those who deserve it.

Amen!

[DJ V Lawrence]

It has nothing to do with informed and everything to do with whether you want to come off as being p.c. or not. You choose not to be.

Couldn't agree more.

This is a serious subject. y'all need to stick to the topic before this DJ gets out his pimp powder...

I do hope that political groups don't get to caught up in the legal terminology, and instead direct their anger at those who deserve it.

Oye Oye Oye.

A Hate Crime is not a crime in and of itself. It is an additional allegation, which, if proven, bumps the punishment for the original crime up one level. So, if the original crime is Aggravated Assault, the punishment is 2-10 years. If the Hate Crime allegation is proven, it goes to 2-20 years.

In this case, the defendants are charged with Aggravated Sexual Assault, with a possible 5-99 year punishment. It cannot go any higher, so as west20th said, the Hate Crime allegation is largely symbolic. In fact, it adds one more thing for the DA to prove, so why make your job tougher. If the victim dies, it becomes Capital Murder, and you can't get any higher than that, either.

There are some political arguments around the Hate Crime statute, but I don't think that will affect this case. I also wonder about the Hate Crime aspect, since it appears that the assault started for an unrelated reason. Certainly, all of the slurs and other aggravating facts will be brought out, regardless of the Hate Crime allegation, so the jury would know everything either way.

But if people saw this person getting attacked and did nothing, wouldn't the two defendants technically have the arguement that they didn't intend to murder? I'm NOT defending these two, but I want to see how the law would work in this case. I'm assuming there are witnesses, because the victim is in critical condition fighting for his life, and there's no way that the two attackers would just come out and say they beat someone up and tell the police all the insults they said during it. Someone else must have heard them saying those racial slurs, right?

Has the question about the party host's age been asked? 12 and 18 sounds like a pretty big age difference for a house party, doesn't it? My sisters are in high school, and they told me that junior high and high schoolers don't usually associate together.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Truely atrocious and i am ALL for hate crimes legislation and laws. Tragic stuff like this needs to be dealt with using a firm hand....

[Original Timmy Chan's]

Is there a way to suspend the whole "due process" and "appeals process" thing and send these guys straight to their deathbeds? Like by next Tuesday, maybe?

If there's a place for the death penalty, it's this case.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Is there a way to suspend the whole "due process" and "appeals process" thing and send these guys straight to their deathbeds? Like by next Tuesday, maybe?

If there's a place for the death penalty, it's this case.

Hold your horses there cowboy/cowgirl

Due process is excellent, shows the world in detail just how bad this kind of behavior is when theres a trial, even more so when it is long and drawn out in great detail :):)

[mrfootball]

Here's the kid's (who was attacked) MySpace website:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendID=60335323

[N Judah]

If he did in fact go after a 12 yr old girl, then I do think some kind of beatdown was probably appropriate, though obviously it should have been done without the pipe and racial slurs.

At any rate I hope the two perps get some jail time.

[jmancuso]

wow...i mean just...wow.

highway6, you wouldn't happen to be an enthusiast of white linens would ya?

[nmainguy]

If he did in fact go after a 12 yr old girl, then I do think some kind of beatdown was probably appropriate, though obviously it should have been done without the pipe and racial slurs.

[Boris]

This article in todays Chronicle answers some of your questions DJV.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/3828548.html

Glad to see that 99% of respondents on this thread disagree with hwy6.

Adios

[bachanon]

come on! my twelve year old niece tried to pass herself off as 16 or 18 when she was that age. he (the kid who was beaten) was 16 for christ's sake. it's not like he was 35. this mentality that it's ok to go apes*** on people is seriously whack!

i saw an episode of csi or some other dumb ass detective show recently. a detective in the states followed an investigation where an underage girl was duped into leaving the country with an older guy who then used her as a prostitute and in pornography. while in the other country, the detective did not feel he was bound by US laws and took the opportunity to beat the sh** out of his suspect because he was so disgusted at the alleged crime.

what kind of message does that scenario send out?!!!!

the correct scenario of the above mentioned tv character would have been to refrain from said beating because "due process" was a conviction of his. yet, it was more fun for the tv audience to see the criminal get beaten.

does anyone wonder how these vile kids felt they had the right to go apes*** on this poor boy?

i am disgusted and horrified over this event.

[westguy]

The middle school girl was at a high school party. She probably didn't want anyone to know her age. It isn't a pedophile situation when they're all young teenagers.

[RedScare]

The middle school girl was at a high school party. She probably didn't want anyone to know her age. It isn't a pedophile situation when they're all young teenagers.

Actually, it is starting to sound like it wasn't a party at all. Today's article suggests that the only people present were the girl and her 16 year old brother, who lived at the residence, the 2 thugs, and the victim. The reason no witnesses said anything is that the thugs stayed at the house, threatening the girl and 16 year old, for a time after the beating. The mother, asleep at the time, was told of the assault the next morning by the 16 year old brother.

[mrfootball]

Did they catch them in bed or something?

Seems plausible...considering the nature of the crime. Or else they ripped his close off of him.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Actually, it is starting to sound like it wasn't a party at all. Today's article suggests that the only people present were the girl and her 16 year old brother, who lived at the residence, the 2 thugs, and the victim. The reason no witnesses said anything is that the thugs stayed at the house, threatening the girl and 16 year old, for a time after the beating. The mother, asleep at the time, was told of the assault the next morning by the 16 year old brother.

I was thinking the same thing. When I first heard the word "party", I pictured at least 10-20 people at a house unattended by the parents. You're right; it sounds like it was only the 4 teens and the mom who was asleep.

A few statements/questions on the Chronicle article...

A confrontation broke out when the victim was accused of trying to kiss the 12-year-old girl.

- The 2 thugs claim they assaulted the victim because they were offended that he was trying to kiss the 12-year old? I don't buy that at all, because in Texas, it's usually the older brother that would say something first (like myself).

Detectives think the 16-year-old boy saw the attack, along with his 12-year-old sister, but they did not summon help sooner because they were threatened by Tuck and Turner, who continued hanging around the house.

...then later...

Tuck and Turner were detained when they later returned to the home, Denholm said.

- After the attack, the thugs hung around the house and threatened harm on the residences if they told police. However, the article also says that the thugs were arrested when they CAME BACK to the house. The thugs left at some point between the time of the assault, and the time the mother woke up, right?

The boy apparently did not know his accused attackers, but he met them through a mutual acquaintance on the night of the incident, Harris County prosecutor Mike Trent said.

-How well did the family (16 year old, 12 year old, mother) know the attackers, and were any of them aware of the tattoos?

[nmainguy]

-How well did the family (16 year old, 12 year old, mother) know the attackers, and were any of them aware of the tattoos?

I don't think the punks who sodomized this kid with a piece of PVC pipe-and then went further by kicking it even further up the kid's rectum with steel toed boots were going to tell the mom what they were really into.

I intentionally posted graphicly to illustrate how horrindous this was in response to what appears to have been an innocent kiss between a couple of kids for Christ's sake

[DJ V Lawrence]

I don't think the punks who sodomized this kid with a piece of PVC pipe-and then went further by kicking it even further up the kid's rectum with steel toed boots were going to tell the mom what they were really into.

I intentionally posted graphicly to illustrate how horrindous this was in response to what appears to have been an innocent kiss between a couple of kids for Christ's sake

That's just the thing; I don't think the assault had anything to do with a 16 year old attempting to kiss a 12 year old, and two older dudes try to be heroes and teach a lesson. That sounds stupid. It doesn't sound like a planned-out attack either; knowing thatthe victim and attackers met for the first time that night. But there's gotta be more to the story as to what triggered the attack.

No matter what the reason was, it won't justify why they did it. But I'm curious what can trigger that kind of hate in a person.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

But I'm curious what can trigger that kind of hate in a person.

2 words come to my mind..... stupidity and infantility.

Those can trigger that sort of hate, especially when mixed together. Not a gumbo i want to eat, how about you?

[VicMan]

Why are people calling for the death penalty for the attackers?

Don't you guys realize that being cellmates of "Bubba" for life is helluva lot worse than dying?

[DJ V Lawrence]

Why are people calling for the death penalty for the attackers?

Don't you guys realize that being cellmates of "Bubba" for life is helluva lot worse than dying?

Maybe they're into Bubba. Jail ain't all that bad if you love thy cellmate. The death penalty's fool-proof.

Check this out...

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3829809.html

Read everything from top to bottom. This one may have answered my question as to what the REAL motive was behind the attack...

The victim was beaten because he allegedly tried to kiss a 12-year-old girl living at the home where the party was held, authorities have said.

Zack Burton, 16, who has known the victim since junior high, said he doesn't believe it. He's had a serious girlfriend for four years, he said.

"They're like the model couple at school," Burton said. "(He's) cool. He's a real positive person

[VicMan]

Maybe they're into Bubba. Jail ain't all that bad if you love thy cellmate. The death penalty's fool-proof.

Actually, isn't that easily solved by switching to another "Bubba" that the criminal absolutely hates?

Or put the prisoner in maximum security with nothing fun to do - only icky-tasting food.. etc.

Again, there are worse things than dying.

[Trae]

^^^I mean yeah, he could be raped by that Bubba he dislikes.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Actually, isn't that easily solved by switching to another "Bubba" that the criminal absolutely hates?

Or put the prisoner in maximum security with nothing fun to do - only icky-tasting food.. etc.

Again, there are worse things than dying.

Can you imagine what this Tuck guy could be capable of if he were released back into society and didn't change his mindset? Imagine for a second that Tuck and his friend weren't there at that house. They'd still be at school, and in the long run, Tuck would have done something a lot worse. He's not the kind of person I'd want my child to have as a classmate if I was a parent.

Not saying he deserves the death penalty or not, but it will take a LOT for a person like Tuck to be able to convince the public that he's a changed man if they went the prison route, and gave him the chance for paroll, which can happen (even though most of us don't want to imagine that right now).

[VicMan]

Did I ever say he should be released into society?

Maximum security prisons are hard to escape from. He would have to be a brainiac and have a healthy dose of dumb luck in order to get out.

What I meant as, a continuously painful, meaningless existence is a lot worse than death.

Can you imagine what this Tuck guy could be capable of if he were released back into society and didn't change his mindset? Imagine for a second that Tuck and his friend weren't there at that house. They'd still be at school, and in the long run, Tuck would have done something a lot worse. He's not the kind of person I'd want my child to have as a classmate if I was a parent.

Not saying he deserves the death penalty or not, but it will take a LOT for a person like Tuck to be able to convince the public that he's a changed man if they went the prison route, and gave him the chance for paroll, which can happen (even though most of us don't want to imagine that right now).

[YakuzaIce]

How in the world could the mother, Sharon Tuck, claim her son doesn't have Nazi sympathies WHEN HE HAS NAZI SYMBOLS TATTOOED ON HIS BODY? Is she blind, naive, or possibly taking drugs with her son? If these stories are true, doesn't Tuck sound like a ticking time-bomb?

But were they actually Nazi symbols, or were they just swastikas (or it may have been something else) assumed to be Nazi symbols? Perhaps he practices Hinduism or Jainism. Ok, yeah I doubt that is what it was, but I am just throwing out a possibilty (which doesn't hold a chance considering his other actions).

[DJ V Lawrence]

Did I ever say he should be released into society?

Don't worry, I know you never said that, and I know what you're saying. But even if he gets a maximum sentence doesn't mean 100% that he will never be up for release.

[bachanon]

What I meant as, a continuously painful, meaningless existence is a lot worse than death.

sounds like this kid is already living a "painful, meaningless existence". what he needs is a "wake-up" call. what he and his buddy did is horrific and deserves punishment. i can't help but think that they have no idea "what's up". it seems that we are breeding this type of person more than ever. revenge is not a virtue. granting opportunity to get someone's sh** together is.

i'm getting sick of this "they deserve it" mentality. this is the same frame of mind that these attackers had.

no one deserves to get their head kicked in and sodomized....neither do the attackers.

justice is not vengeance.

[DJ V Lawrence]

sounds like this kid is already living a "painful, meaningless existence". what he needs is a "wake-up" call. what he and his buddy did is horrific and deserves punishment. i can't help but think that they have no idea "what's up". it seems that we are breeding this type of person more than ever. revenge is not a virtue. granting opportunity to get someone's sh** together is.

i'm getting sick of this "they deserve it" mentality. this is the same frame of mind that these attackers had.

no one deserves to get their head kicked in and sodomized....neither do the attackers.

justice is not vengeance.

It's not just about vengence. It's a question of if these two are capable of doing something as hateful as this again, and if people are willing to take the chance of having them become their neighbor with the verbal assurance that they "changed".

Out of curiousity, does anyone here think the trial will stay in Houston? I wonder how far away the trial would take place for this to be deemed a "fair trial".