Domes- Why?

[VelvetJ]

OK, so I had a heated debate lastnight with a friend that all started with our disagreement over whether the roof should have been open or closed during the World Series. I say it should have been closed, he says it should have stayed open due to baseball, as well as football, being designed to be played outside. He also didn't buy into the noise being a factor when the roof is closed. In fact he attended one of the games while we were playing Atlanta and he didn't understand why the roof was closed because the weather was so great outside. He feels the teams should just go out on the field and play solid baseball and the roof shouldn't be a factor one way or the other ( I agree the players should go out and play to be best of their ability by the way) .But that's not the issue here.

While we were playing in Chicago this past weekend, I had another friend tell me that she thought Chicago had an advantage because they were use to playing in cold weather and the Astro's were not. Well I brought this up last night and my friend made a interesting point. He said for example, when teams from Florida go up to play in the north many times the northern teams are at an advantage, and the same is true in the reverse order when Green Bay travels to say Tampa or Miami and have to play in extreme heat. He also mentioned that no football team with a roof has ever won a superbowl.

My quesiton is, is it necessary for Sports facilities in Houston to have any type of roof? Some make the argument that if the professional sports facilities in Florida don't need domes, why does Houston have them? If they can deal with the elements there, why can't we here? Is Houston and New Orleans any hotter than Miami, Tampa, and Jacksonville? If baseball and football were made to be played outside, why do we need domes in Houston?

[TAK]

houston has less breeze and more concrete than Miami, Tampa, and Jacksonville. i'm guessing the heat index in Houston is higher (average temperatures about the same, though.)

houston has an Indoor & A/C culture. the florida cities you mention are more beach/outdoor/recreation cultures.

just my 2 cents...

[RedScare]

VelvetJ, the stadiums are not covered for the benefit of the players. They are covered and air conditioned for the benefit of the paying customers. As an example, look at the attendance for Houston versus Miami for the last several years. Houston has been in the top 10 since Minute Maid opened. Miami, in spite of contending for the Wild Card and the NL East, has been near the bottom every year, including 28th out of 30 this year. (Tampa was last, even though they play in a Dome.)

Football could be played outdoors, since it is played largely in the fall, and even if it is hot, each game is an event. Baseball is played every day and in the summer. The heat would take a toll on attendance.

As for the roof open debate, I call BS. Even though I think it should be the home team's call, the stadium is plenty loud with the roof open. The Astros lost because they gave up 5 runs in one inning, and did not get timely hitting.

Also, the stadium was not as loud during the series, because the REAL fans who went to the games all year, including the NLDS and NLCS, could not get or afford World Series tickets. The big spenders who can throw $1000 at a ticket got them, and they just don't yell as loud. If you watched both home games, you could see them everywhere, standing with their arms crossed! Those losers along 3rd base didn't even try to catch the foul ball that cost us an out. PUSS*ES!

No, the roof didn't cost us the game, big spending Wusses did.

[dbigtex56]

Gee, if we were still playing at the AstroDome, wonder if we would have been required to rip the roof off?

While fixed roof stadia were problematic (Astroturf, anyone?), they still allowed games to be played which otherwise would have had to be postponed. With the expense of tickets and television coverage, such innovations as roofed stadia (and night games) help keep the sport alive.

Artificial light didn't destroy baseball, and we've been playing under roofs for more than 40 years now. Not all changes threaten the traditions of baseball. The option of leaving the roof open or closed should have been left up to the home team.

[Houston19514]

One of the main reasons for the roof on Reliant Stadium is the Rodeo.

I've had the same thoughts. There are many summer days where the heat index is higher in DFW and, yes, even as far north as St. Louis, than it is in Houston. But STL and DFW fans manage to go to outdoor games. Maybe Houstonians just got spoiled with having the world's first indoor stadium and all. That, and most Houstonians, espcially those in the media, seem to believe that Houston is the hottest place in the country.

Having said that, I think the Commissioner's late and seeemingly random decision to force the roof open was total BS (although I too doubt that it really made any difference).

[RedScare]

One of the main reasons for the roof on Reliant Stadium is the Rodeo.

Good call, 19514. Indeed, the Livestock Show & Rodeo was intent on keeping it's title as "The World's Largest Indoor Rodeo". An open air stadium would have cost them. They ponied up (like the pun?) a bunch of cash toward that retractable roof, so they could keep the slogan.

[HeightsGuy]

Nobody has mentioned mosquitos yet. I believe that was one of the top reasons 'ol Roy built the dome in the first place.....

[Houston19514]

Nobody has mentioned mosquitos yet. I believe that was one of the top reasons 'ol Roy built the dome in the first place.....

That's another thing on which Houstonians (including, or rather, especially, the media) seem to think they have cornered the market. In my experience, Houston's mosquito "problem" is no worse than other places, and a good deal better than some.

[ToolMan]

Velvet, I agree with you friend about the roof. I always complain when they have the roof closed on a beautifull day (just like the Atlanta game). It just seems more like a real game with the roof open. I was pissed off when the roof was closed last Sunday during the Texans game on a nice 75 degree game.

Yes, Houstonian's are spoiled when it comes to watching games in weather). Go to St. Louis\Arlington during the summer and watch the game - go to Chicago\Green Bay and watch a football game in the winter.

And RedScare, you better not be the lawer defending those jackasses wanting to sue the MLB for opening the roof this week.

[The Great Hizzy!]

That's another thing on which Houstonians (including, or rather, especially, the media) seem to think they have cornered the market. In my experience, Houston's mosquito "problem" is no worse than other places, and a good deal better than some.

Bingo.

Newsflash: mosquitoes are along the Atlantic coast, from Florida (the worst) to New York. I can't imagine what turd with too much time on his/her hands decided to make mosquitoes a Houston thing. But I've learned that people, for the most part, aren't very bright and are prone to believing whatever BS someone throws their way, just so long as it's the right person doing it.

As for the reasons for the roof, all the explanations offered here are pretty accure, for the most part. The Astrodome was built for the Astros (who played during the summers, the hottest and primarily most uncomfortable climatic time of the year). Fan comfort was the key concern, not the players. Furthermore, having a roof offered some other advantages, such as hosting concerts and non-outdoor sports events such as basketball.

It's not that outdoor pro sports can't be played in Houston (Rice and UH play football games outdoor every year), it's that you can manipulate weather conditions/comfort for the benefit of the fan more, and having a comfortable environment stands a good chance of keeping attendance up.

A prime example, even the tough-guy sports fan would rather be watching the first two games of the WS in temperatures above fifty degrees with no rain. That was never going to be a problem in Houston but it was in Chicago.

[RedScare]

And RedScare, you better not be the lawer defending those jackasses wanting to sue the MLB for opening the roof this week.

Had not heard that one, ToolMan, but I wouldn't take a case like that on a bet. I might shine my shoe on their butts for asking, though.

[TJones]

Had not heard that one, ToolMan, but I wouldn't take a case like that on a bet. I might shine my shoe on their butts for asking, though.

Red, you would love this case, it is hilarious, they are sueing for the fact that they suffer from asthma, and by MLB making them open the roof, put them at a health risk. Holy frivolous lawsuits Batman !

[ToolMan]

Lawyer plans to sue MLB over Minute Maid Park roof mandate

10/27/05 - KTRK/HOUSTON) - The World Series may be over, but the case to keep the roof of Minute Maid Park open is far from being shut.

Houston attorney Lisa Sechelski is planning to file a class action lawsuit against Major League Baseball and Commissioner Bud Selig.

She claims some fans got sick because they weren't given adequate notice that the roof would be open and therefore, weren't prepared for temperatures in the 50's. Some think the lawsuit is a joke, but Sechelski says she's serious.

"They expected to go and enjoy a game instead they were met with conditions they weren't prepared for," said Sechelski.

"I'd be surprised if a judge let this case get very far. But again there may be facts that none of us know about," said U of H law professor Richard Alderman.

The lawsuit does not involve the Astros. They actually wanted the roof to be closed

[RedScare]

Red, you would love this case, it is hilarious, they are sueing for the fact that they suffer from asthma, and by MLB making them open the roof, put them at a health risk. Holy frivolous lawsuits Batman !

And just how did these poor unfortunate pukes get to the stadium....in a plastic bubble, like David the Bubble Boy?

What friggin losers. That's why I want to go back to bartending.

[HeightsGuy]

Well, now that we've mucked about with different reasons the Dome was built, let's agree on another important reason that architects and engineers should all agree with:

Why Not?!

[gto250us]

I don't know why they don't tear down that damn Astrodome. It was a miserable baseball stadium and the fact that nobody knows what to do with it now proves that it is not good for anything. This cith has torn down useful historical structures at the drop of a hat, why agonize over that crappy dome?

Lawyer plans to sue MLB over Minute Maid Park roof mandate

10/27/05 - KTRK/HOUSTON) - The World Series may be over, but the case to keep the roof of Minute Maid Park open is far from being shut.

Houston attorney Lisa Sechelski is planning to file a class action lawsuit against Major League Baseball and Commissioner Bud Selig.

She claims some fans got sick because they weren't given adequate notice that the roof would be open and therefore, weren't prepared for temperatures in the 50's. Some think the lawsuit is a joke, but Sechelski says she's serious.

"They expected to go and enjoy a game instead they were met with conditions they weren't prepared for," said Sechelski.

"I'd be surprised if a judge let this case get very far. But again there may be facts that none of us know about," said U of H law professor Richard Alderman.

The lawsuit does not involve the Astros. They actually wanted the roof to be closed

Typical lawyer response for not getting his own way.

[TJones]

And just how did these poor unfortunate pukes get to the stadium....in a plastic bubble, like David the Bubble Boy?

What friggin losers. That's why I want to go back to bartending.

Perhaps a magical force field surrounded them. Maybe they got to drive right up to their luxury box, TV parking you know.

[skwatra]

I don't know why they don't tear down that damn Astrodome. It was a miserable baseball stadium and the fact that nobody knows what to do with it now proves that it is not good for anything. This cith has torn down useful historical structures at the drop of a hat, why agonize over that crappy dome?

completely disagree. it was an engineering marvel at one time, there was nothing like it in the world. it's a symbol of our city, and they could find a very good use for it, whether it be for soccer, evacuees, or a mall/hotel/convention center. and now with astroworld going, maybe parking can be resolved with reliant.

[Jeebus]

As for the roof open debate, I call BS. Even though I think it should be the home team's call, the stadium is plenty loud with the roof open. The Astros lost because they gave up 5 runs in one inning, and did not get timely hitting.

Exactly.

[skwatra]

As for the roof open debate, I call BS. Even though I think it should be the home team's call, the stadium is plenty loud with the roof open. The Astros lost because they gave up 5 runs in one inning, and did not get timely hitting.

No, the roof didn't cost us the game, big spending Wusses did.

first off, i'm not blaming the roof for why we lost. we lost because of what you said, i'm not trying to come up with excuses. i argued all the following points with friends just before game 3-

the stadium is plenty loud with the roof open, buts its louder, even intimidating with it closed. and closed is what the astros are used to from june on. more then anything, i think it was a big psychological hit. baseball is quite a mental sport, and the players are generally very superstitious. suddenly changing the environment a few hours before game time for something you feel hurts you, not good.

and look at the stats which you can't argue with. are record is so much better with the roof closed.

why i'm pissed about it - we've been at MMP for 6 years, 4 playoff runs. did MLB ever come in and say anything? why wait for the most important games in franchise history to step in? that's BS.

[gto250us]

I have agreat idea for the dome. Fill all the seats with all the lawyers in Houston and then fill the whole thing with concrete. folks will come from around the world to see it. Hell, Fetitta can sell tickets to get in. What a great idea.

[RedScare]

There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Let's put this open/closed roof record in perspective.

The Astros were 15-11 with the roof open. The roof was closed from June 2 till the end of the season. The Astros SUCKED prior to June 2. Their road record was 5-22.

After June 2, with the roof closed, they were 38-17. On the road, they were 31-23. Using percentages, it is even more obvious.

April to June 2 - .577 home

June to October - .691 home Difference - .114 increase

April to June 2 - .185 away

June to October - .574 away Difference - .389 increase

So, 15-11 during the early part of the season was actually a very good record, compared to their away record. After June 2, they were great at home AND away. The roof had nothing to do with it. It was home field advantage, not closed roof advantage. After all the talk of the 'Stros coming back from 15-30 to win the pennant, I don't know why no one saw this.

[Houston19514]

There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Let's put this open/closed roof record in perspective.

The Astros were 15-11 with the roof open. The roof was closed from June 2 till the end of the season. The Astros SUCKED prior to June 2. Their road record was 5-22.

After June 2, with the roof closed, they were 38-17. On the road, they were 31-23. Using percentages, it is even more obvious.

April to June 2 - .577 home

June to October - .691 home Difference - .114 increase

April to June 2 - .185 away

June to October - .574 away Difference - .389 increase

So, 15-11 during the early part of the season was actually a very good record, compared to their away record. After June 2, they were great at home AND away. The roof had nothing to do with it. It was home field advantage, not closed roof advantage. After all the talk of the 'Stros coming back from 15-30 to win the pennant, I don't know why no one saw this.

EXCELLENT WORK!! That very thought had crossed my mind, but I had not taken the initiative to put the numbers together.

My problem with the whole roof open order is the weasely way the commish did it. He did it to Arizona, what three, four years ago. Why didn't he make it a formal rule after that? He knew the whole time leading to the end of the season that the Astros were leaving the roof closed even in good weather, why didn't he announce a general policy then? He SURELY saw the Astros keeping the roof closed for the playoff games against both Atlanta and St. Louis. Why was it not important then? And THEN, when the Astros won the playoffs against STL, he knew they had kept the roof closed, but kept silent about it, until after the World Series had started and then waited some more until after we'd played a game in Chicago and then waited some more until after we'd played another game in Chicago, and then waited some more until the day between Chicago and Houston and even then couldn't "announce" his order until THE DAY OF THE FREAKIN' GAME, Game 3 of the FREAKIN' World Series. What, he didn't know it was coming? The World Series suddenly snuck up on him? Did someone just step in his office Monday afternoon, and say, hey Commish, did you know the Astros have a ROOF on their stadium? What a freakin' idiot!

[skwatra]

i knew you were going to bring that up Red. there were similar statistics or lies last from year, but i can't find them (when the roof was open/closed).

but if you assume it was open until june 2nd

april to june 2 - .536 home

june to october - .623 home Difference - .087 increase

april to june 2 - .583 road

june to october - .526 road Difference - .057 Decrease

so they were better at home late in the season with the roof closed, and they were worse on the road.

and you also have to include the capacity, its not that loud (compared to the playoffs) open or closed during the regular season.

bottom line is the players prefer it closed as many of them stated (can't argue with that one), MLB has never said anything before, and it definately would make a psycholigical difference in their game, especially making a change that late that the astros were not expecting.

[RedScare]

I agree that none of this changes my opinion that the home team decides open or closed. I was merely pointing out that the team was playing badly in the beginning, and that had more effect than the roof.

And, as 19514 said, waiting till the day of the game for Selig to call it is BS as well.

[TJones]

Minute Maid Park was made for the home town crowd to appreciate, and for the away crowds to be in awe of. I guess Selig decided that the whole "home field advantage" thing should just be thrown out the window. It should have been up to the Home Team as to whether to leave it closed or open it up.

[gto250us]

completely disagree. it was an engineering marvel at one time, there was nothing like it in the world. it's a symbol of our city, and they could find a very good use for it, whether it be for soccer, evacuees, or a mall/hotel/convention center. and now with astroworld going, maybe parking can be resolved with reliant.

The Astrodome may have been some kind of marval but ultimatley it was a failure. First, they tried to grow grass indoors. Dah - that was a failure. They then had to come up with artificial grass. That was a success until we ended up with hundreds of athlete injured because of it. How many stadiums have now replaced turf with grass? Most of them. So, that idea was a failure.

The idea of a multipurpose statdium was a failure. Sure, it took 25 years for folks to accept that they are no good for either baseball or football. Many were built in 60s & 70s. How many are left? Not many and those that are are slated to be replaced with a baseball stadium AND and football stadium. Thus that idea was a failure.

The idea of a domed stadium was a failure. Again, many were built but they are most all being replaced. If they want them enclosed they make them with retractable roofs, Thus the idea of a domed stadium was a failure.

face it, the place is a mess and is not good for anything - TEAR IT DOWN

[YakuzaIce]

The Astrodome may have been some kind of marval but ultimatley it was a failure. First, they tried to grow grass indoors. Dah - that was a failure. They then had to come up with artificial grass. That was a success until we ended up with hundreds of athlete injured because of it. How many stadiums have now replaced turf with grass? Most of them. So, that idea was a failure.

The idea of a multipurpose statdium was a failure. Sure, it took 25 years for folks to accept that they are no good for either baseball or football. Many were built in 60s & 70s. How many are left? Not many and those that are are slated to be replaced with a baseball stadium AND and football stadium. Thus that idea was a failure.

The idea of a domed stadium was a failure. Again, many were built but they are most all being replaced. If they want them enclosed they make them with retractable roofs, Thus the idea of a domed stadium was a failure.

face it, the place is a mess and is not good for anything - TEAR IT DOWN

Well considering it was a marvel from an engireering standpoint, no it was not a failure. The only reason it could not have grass was because players complained of glare when catching fly balls. Thus causing us to paint the roof.

Also how was it a failure because decades later retractable roofs have become more common. Using that logic the piston engined planes were failures because later on the jet engine was invented.

Just because something better came along doesn't mean the the invention which led to the advancement was a failure.

[MidtownCoog]

Using that logic the piston engined planes were failures because later on the jet engine was invented.

LOL!

And Gothic churches in Europe are failures becase Lakewood Church moved to the Summit/Compaq Center!

[RedScare]

The Catholic Church is a failure since Protestants broke away.

The Model T was a failure since it was replaced by the Model A.

Railroads were a failure since airplanes were invented.

Ditto ships.

Telephones are a failure since cell phones were invented.

Cable TV was a failure since Satellite TV was invented.

Wow. Never realized how many failures this world has produced.