Mexicans Taking Over Houston

[Guest danax]

There's no other place on the planet where there is such a contrast in economies, which creates a huge pressure differential causing the illegals to take flight. So it's easy to understand why they're here. If I were a Mexican, I would probably be here too. However, I would try to learn the language, not just to improve myself but as a form of respect to the Americans. You could also say that our economy and historically industrious ways would be a positive influence on the Mexican people down there and might cause them to copy us to some extent in order to upgrade their own economy but perhaps 1) they feel helpless down there due to centuries of banana republic governments 2) cultural pride 3) they are really not that interested.

As for speaking our language, they are 1) the only culture here that does not automatically try to learn English and 2) the only culture here that can exist without having to learn English. So, it's a vicious circle in that sense.

[debmartin]

"Okay I know my spelling and grammer is bad. I cannot hide that. But I have never been very good at putting down to writting what I want to say. LOL.

We can only do our best with what we have."

(quote, hunter)

well stated hunter.

personally i feel it is inconsiderate to call attention to someone's spelling and/or grammar on a forum because it is designed to be completely informal. in almost every case you can still understand the point or meaning, and picking apart the post for errors takes away from the message, or perhaps that's the point. to focus on the way something's being said is a good way to distance yourself from what is being said, especially if what is being said does not line up with your own point of view. i'd rather read words that come from the heart, with conviction and passion instead of a spell-checked, toned-down version.

debmartin

[713 To 214]

"To err is human.." but to butcher the language you speak like an illiterate child is no excuse. I make my fair share of typos like everyone else, but there are extremes & limits. One should be able to type the same words he/she is able to pen on paper. People assume that since it's electronic, that it doesn't matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here, here!!!!

[editor]

As for speaking our language, they are 1) the only culture here that does not automatically try to learn English and 2) the only culture here that can exist without having to learn English. So, it's a vicious circle in that sense.

Not even remotely true. Think about America's Chinatowns. I've only been to the ones in New York and Chicago, but in both there are thousands of people, recent immigrants and those who have been here for generations, who do not speak, read, or understand English; or even care to.

I've heard the same is true for the Russian neighborhoods of Brooklyn, but I haven't been there to verify this for myself.

Two examples from Chicago: The city has a huge Polish population with its own newspapers, TV and radio stations, churches, and more. Tens of thousands of people in the community only speak Polish. Some of the ones I've met are second-generation in their teens and 20's and have never been interested in learning English because they haven't needed or wanted to.

Chicago also has a large Latvian/Estonian/Lithuanian population. My wife took me to a party in the city's "Ukrainian Village" neighborhood. Most of the people there were 20-something models and others involved in the fashion industry. There were maybe five of us at the party who spoke English. The rest decided to pick Russian as a common language for the evening. Since I couldn't communicate, I was having a pretty miserable time, so we left early. As I was leaving, one of the Lithuanian girls said something in English, and the little knot of friends she was with were aghast. I don't know exactly what they said to her, but the body language was clearly a scolding for speaking English.

I've heard about communities of people in the mountains of places like West Virginia and Virginia and Georgia who are so isolated they don't speak English -- just whatever language their forefathers spoke when they arrived from across the Atlantic.

So, I guess my point is that while it bothers me that Mexican culture is so prominent in a city that prides itself on being "diverse" like Houston, I sometimes have to take a breath and stand back and remember that it's like this everywhere in the country, and in most other countries as well.

[debmartin]

"i'd rather read words that come from the heart, with conviction and passion instead of a spell-checked, toned-down version." (quote, debmartin)

"One should be able to type the same words he/she is able to pen on paper. People assume that since it's electronic, that it doesn't matter." (quote 27)

27 i wonder if you have adult adhd which causes you to skim over words instead of reading for comprehension or if you and i just cannot connect. in my sentence above i'm trying to say that some people are less inhibited when they type their thoughts without trying to set them down in proper form. i never said they wrote with the presence of mind to assume because it's electronic it doesn't matter.

in your sentence above you say one should be able to type as one writes with pen on paper, making the assumption that everyone can write correctly with pen on paper. i have worked with adult ABE students with literacy issues, everyday people employed in a variety of fields who are able to articulate adequately but fare worse trying to write. one of the best ways to help people overcome writing problems is to encourage them to write, period. so many people are ashamed of their writing capabilities they would rather reply with a word or two - others jump right in and just write what comes to mind to get their thought across. writing pen on paper is almost a thing of the past, which is a big help for those with writing problems like dyslexia. i was only trying to make the point that you should overlook poor writing technique whenever possible to preserve the meaning. and don't for one minute think that someone who writes poorly is unaware of that fact and needs to be reminded - believe me, they know.

debmartin

[ricco67]

Deb,

I agree that it is bad form to point out failings in one's english in a forum such as this. Lord knows I manager to mangle the language and I'm a native speaker, but I digress. But when one is having a discussion on immimgrants and their LACK of language skills, then I believe it's open season on such a discussion.

If a native speaker is unable to spell out and word his argument properly, then the argument seems quite laughable.

It's akin to a White surpemist showing up at a meeting with his asian wife.

Editor,

[brownnosing]Excellent points in your post [/brownnosing] and you brought some excellent examples on how not only "The hispanic community" are those that seem to embrace (hold a "death grip?") on their language and culture.

as far as the model that spoke english, she probably said something out of turn or something insulting phrase that caused such a stir in their little group.

Ricco

[2112]

Just what the hell is wrong with me wanting to hold on to my Mexican culture? I can

[Guest danax]

Not even remotely true.  Think about America's Chinatowns.  I've only been to the ones in New York and Chicago, but in both there are thousands of people, recent immigrants and those who have been here for generations, who do not speak, read, or understand English; or even care to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I meant "here" as in Houston. I don't about Chicago or New York.

[citykid09]

The issue is not embrassing Mexican culture, the issue is illegals coming over here when they aren't supposed to be here. And then expecting us Americans to cater to there every need. It's not going to happen, atleast if I have anything to do with it. I like when diffrent cultrures, bring there culture to town and make it more diverse. Now when they begin to take over an area, you no there illegals, especially when they don't even no a bit of Eglish and they have to past a English test to get in to the country legally.

[Parrothead]

Just what the hell is wrong with me wanting to hold on to my Mexican culture? I can

[2112]

2112 Who were you replying too?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The entire thread.

See what some of you don

[Parrothead]

2112, I have to quote you from your first post in this thread, I believe it is on page two or three:

Dear CityKid,

I believe a response is in order. As a Mexican-American, I am completely offended by your total lack of regard to my people and my nationality. Let me clarify what that means so that even you can understand: It means I am American, an American that happens to have family and cultural ties to Mexico. I was born here. So were my parents. Half of my family was born in Mexico and are Mexican citizens. We have family reunions in both Mexico City and in Houston. We also have brothers, and uncles, and grandfathers that fought and died for America, proudly wearing the American flag on their uniform.

If you were born here and your parents were born here, you are an American pure and simple--not a Mexican-American.

My great-grandfather is Scottish. I make a darn good Shortbread and I have a handful of cousins in Edinburgh and Aberdeen, but I am not a Scottish-American.

I am an American. I have a Scottish heritage. I am proud of it. And rightfully so, you should be proud of your Mexican heritage.

I think it is great that your family fought and died for America. Mine did too. My grandfather fought in WWI in Europe and was shot in the butt by a German. My father was in the South Pacific during WWII and fought off dengue fever on Guadalcanal.

So what?

Many immigrants and citizens in this country CHOOSE to fight for it. That is their right, their duty, and their privilege. I appreciate that your family fought alongside mine, but using it in your debate and calling yourself a "Mexican American" when clearly you are not almost seems elitist.

[2112]

The only reason I'm so adamant about illegal immigration enforcement is because of certain elements that are coming into this country, not to work and make a better life for themselves, but to harm us as a nation, a society & as a culture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most of that population are here to work, and work HARD, for pennys, mind you. They literally risk thier lives to come here and work thier butts off for nothing doing the crapy jobs the rest of us don't want.

When you come to this country with nothing, not even the language, it is going to take a generation or so. Thier children will assimilate and become productive citizens. But how can anyone expect immigrants who spend all of thier time working laboriously to quickly assimilate. Maybe if they are young, then yes. But if you are a typical immigrant over the age of 25, it's almost too late. Your entire existence is work work work, so that the children will have better lives. That is where the payoff is.

They are here to work. That's what they do.

[2112]

...calling yourself a "Mexican American" when clearly you are not almost seems elitist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In your view, what is the difference between an American who calls himself "Mexican-American" and one who calls himself "hispanic"?

[Parrothead]

I have always been taught that hispanics are of Latin American descent, and could be from a lot of different places--but mainly Mexico, and some countries in Central America. I remember hearing that people from Puerto Rico do not like being called Hispanics, and neither do Belizeans. I don't know why that is, but I digress.

A Mexican-American is a name given to someone born in Mexico that has emigrated to the United States and has become a citizen. That's what I was taught. Has that changed? Is it always going to change according to whomever we offend in this PC world of ours? Perhaps we should break it down to region/territory or state. "Yes, as a matter of fact, I am a Coahuilan-Mexican-American, mainly a Saltillo-Coahuilan-Mexican-American."

Are there any Canadian-Americans? Lest you count Alannis Morissette, who decided to become an American citizen for the sole purpose of bitching about this country without hearing backlash. As if that would stop me, right? Yes, Alannis, you're an American now, bully for you. You're still an idiot.

Ah, I digress again.

But then, we could get on the whole topic of hyphenations and how ridiculous they are across the board. Last I checked, my friend Mark, who is black, has never been to Africa in his life. Nor have his parents, nor his grandparents. Ah well. What can ya do?

"...cause we are living in a P.C. world, and I am a P.C. girl." (not.)

^sung to Madonna's "Material Girl"

[2112]

Ok, so would you say using the two phrases clearly means two different things?

[2112]

I think part of the problem is that different people use the term, uhh, differently. To Americans of Mexican decent (happy now?), the term CLEARLY only means "Americans of Mexican decent

[Parrothead]

Huh? Am I "happy now"? Was I unhappy before?

The only real problem I have is people who hyphenate their citizenship and want to be treated differently for all the "sacrifices" they've made. That seriously irritates the he*l out of me. I guess ultimately I could care less if there is a distinction or not if the motives are pure enough. Hispanic, Mexican American, Latino, whatever....pick one and let's be done with it....I am just a da*ned American and that's all I ever want to be.

[bruce_oneal]

But then, we could get on the whole topic of hyphenations and how ridiculous they are across the board.  Last I checked, my friend Mark, who is black, has never been to Africa in his life.  Nor have his parents, nor his grandparents. Ah well.  What can ya do? 

"...cause we are living in a P.C. world, and I am a P.C. girl."  (not.) 

^sung to Madonna's "Material Girl"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i understand your issue with hyphenated americanisms. i am 'black' american, but not really ...

MY SKIN IS NOT BLACK ... it is BROWN. in some ways i like BLACK but in other ways i do not ... no other ethnic group (besides white americans ... and that is really not correct either because not many of them are the color of a sheet of paper either i suppose) is determined by a color. you do not hear talk of brown americans, yellow americans, olive americans, etc..

african-american is really not a lot better, but it at least defines a place of ethnic origin, just as japanese-american, or asian-americans, etc. it is not perfect, but i suppose it is better.

i would like to one day just be an american, but my skin color just won't let that happen too often. i am ALWAYS going to be seen as black (brown) in this color conscious world.

thoughts?

[Guest danax]

2112, I would probably feel somewhat defensive too but I think that it is natural for any group of people to have mixed feelings about any culture that shows explosive growth to the point where you find yourself living in a true, bi-cultural city. The original post in this topic was about how the "Hispanic culture" is "taking over". If suddenly Mexico City realized that they had more "gringos" or "bolillos" living there than Mexicanos and that they were out reproducing the Mexicanos by 2 to 1 and that the media was half English etc., I bet there would be some mixed feelings and comments, at a minimum. In fact, I bet the miltary, politicians and many people would be up in arms and passing laws quickly to protect their culture. Cultural pride goes both ways and there's bound to be a reaction when you see your culture being

" taken over".

I think you know that I have family and neighborhood ties with the Hispanic culture, but there are some negative aspects too to the "culture" that people notice, mainly the graffiti all over town, the trashy neighborhoods and the trend towards large masses of uneducated people reproducing like mad. And then throw in the fact that a lot of them are here illegally ( I know, they're just workers, I'd probably be doing it too) and when all of this is on a fast-track growth curve, it's surprising that there isn't more of a public reaction.

C'mon man, I'm not bashing all Hispanics at all, but can we talk about these things without everyone getting bent out of shape?

That said, I think they are good people and that we can all love each other.

[Hunter]

Just what the hell is wrong with me wanting to hold on to my Mexican culture?  I can

[Parrothead]

i understand your issue with hyphenated americanisms.  i am 'black' american, but not really ...

MY SKIN IS NOT BLACK ... it is BROWN.  in some ways i like BLACK but in other ways i do not ... no other ethnic group (besides white americans ... and that is really not correct either because not many of them are the color of a sheet of paper either i suppose) is determined by a color.  you do not hear talk of brown americans, yellow americans, olive americans, etc.. 

african-american is really not a lot better, but it at least defines a place of ethnic origin, just as japanese-american, or asian-americans, etc.  it is not perfect, but i suppose it is better.

i would like to one day just be an american, but my skin color just won't let that happen too often.  i am ALWAYS going to be seen as black (brown) in this color conscious world.

thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I don't even understand why we need any ethnic origin/hyphenation at all, because to me, that just continues to seperate everyone. Caucasians come from all over but they don't feel the need to use any ethnic origin in their name. However, my original point was that I guess the names don't bother me as much as how they are used and twisted, mainly because they can be and no one, least of all Caucasians, can say a word about it lest they be branded a racist.

It's funny, because we have a few friends that are Indian that work with my husband. They never have considered themselves Indian-Americans. They're Indians from India. The only one that isn't is Krishna, he calls himself "an American born in New Delhi" and we all say, "Which new deli?" and he just gets the biggest kick out of it. It just doesn't seem to be an issue with them, I don't really know why that is.

[2112]

My post above was supposed to be funny. I guess no one is familiar with that "song" in "Up in Smoke". Funny movie. I also like their other movie that featured the horse anus and the retrieved license plate. Remember that one?

[bruce_oneal]

My post above was suppose to be funny.  I guess no one is familiar with that "song" in "Up in Smoke".  Funny movie.

I also like thier other movie that featured the horse anus and the hidden licence plate.  Remember that one?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yikes! what kinda kinky stuff are you folks watching... ?

just kidding!

[2112]

yikes!

[2112]

I had a dream last night where I was standing in some line to buy something, and a short woman behind me actually found me attractive. As she was leaving, she handed me a five-dollar tip and said, with a sensual smile:

[713 To 214]

When you come to this country with nothing, not even the language, it is going to take a generation or so. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you come here LEGALLY, then you will be forced to learn english in far less time than that, because your proficency in english will be teseted as part of the process to gain American Citizenship.

Thier children will assimilate and become productive citizens.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not if they keep pulling their kids out of school so that their kids can accompany them, as their personal translator, while they go to pay bills, or other instances where they are forced to communicate in english. I know several people like this, so, I have a feeling that you know at least one.

But how can anyone expect immigrants who spend all of thier time working laboriously to quickly assimilate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Study english for 30 minutes to an hour each day. Study at night, on the way to work, on your day off. I'm sorry, that is not an excuse to me. If one takes the time everyday to learn 5 new words in english, his/her vocabulary would improve dramatically in a relatively short period of time. Additionally, that person should be presented with the opportunity, everyday, to practice his/her english by communicating with other english-speaking people in our society. If someone risked their life to come here and made all of those other additional sacrifices to have a better life, it just seems logical to me that learning english should be in line with the rest of those sacrifices. In other words, learning english is part of having that better life.

[jmancuso]

actually a "mexican-american" could mean an american of mexican decent or a mexican who moved to the US to become an american. the former would be 2nd, 3rd or greater generation and the former would be first generation.

i could be labeled as an italian-american becuase of my italian heritage but other than loving the godfather movies and can make a good speghetti sauce, i have little ties with italy (or the other countries of my heritage).

"hispanic" means people of latin american decent except brazil as they speak portuguese, not spanish. people from spain are not "hispanic" either becuase they are lumped together with them other europeans and who needs them?

"latin-american" means people from (or of) the whole enchillada...so to speak.

[Hunter]

Not if they keep pulling their kids out of school so that their kids can accompany them, as their personal translator, while they go to pay bills, or other instances where they are forced to communicate in english.  I know several people like this, so, I have a feeling that you know at least one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have meet many that refuse to put them in school because the kids will be forced to learn English. I even meet one family that moved to a new school district and tried to force the school to hire special teacher that knew Spanish just so their kids could go to school. The school offered to hire some Bi lingual teacher to help the kids and family to learn English but they refused.

[jmancuso]

I had a dream last night where I was standing in some line to buy something, and a short woman behind me actually found me attractive.  As she was leaving, she handed me a five-dollar tip and said, with a sensual smile: