Final high speed rail public meeting January 5

[Slick Vik]

Final public meeting regarding high speed rail from Houston to Dallas is tomorrow at Lutheran High School. I'll be there but I expect it will mostly be people that live near 610/Shepherd area complaining.

 

http://gardenoaks.org/gazettes/2015/Flyer%20Insert%20-%20High-Speed%20Rail.pdf

[Ross]

Wouldn't you complain about this if it ran through your neighborhood Vik? Northwest Mall is the appropriate terminus location. There's no need to go all the way downtown.

[BigFootsSocks]

I wouldn't bevause Id think of the immense value this had for Texas. I wouldn't be so selfish to stop a quiet train from passing through. This is progress and those who oppose it are against it for entirely selfish reasons.

[jgriff]

Is there a detailed map of the proposed route through Houston available? All of them that I've seen don't show enough detail to see exactly where this might go. 

[mollusk]

Considering that the in town routing is pretty much along existing (Diesel powered) freight lines, this sounds like a lot of fear without a whole lot of thought behind it... the basic autonomic "no" response.  At in town speeds, the HSR ought to sound much like the light rail, which can barely be heard from immediately adjacent buildings unless it's signaling at a grade crossing.  Crikey, people on foot manage to wander out in front of that thing. 

 

It would still be interesting to see how things would compare for a Northwest Mall terminal vs. downtown, 

[Slick Vik]

Wouldn't you complain about this if it ran through your neighborhood Vik? Northwest Mall is the appropriate terminus location. There's no need to go all the way downtown.

No I would understand it's for the greater good. It needs to go downtown and there is no doubt about that

[cfewell22]

I live along the current freight train at 43rd and Magnum in Oak Forest. The train is so loud and the horn they blow is incredibly loud. Having a quiet high speed train that is elevated would not even be noticeable compared to the amazingly loud train that already comes through a hundred times a day and at all hours of the night and morning. I have personally used the exact same trains that are being proposed while traveling in Japan. They are very quiet and are comparable to the light rail. Also i highly doubt they intend on going full speed once in the city limits...... The train needs to have its end point in downtown and that is the only way having a high speed train between the two cities makes any sense. What are people going to do once they get to the northwest transit center? Every great city has a train station in there city core and we need one as well. 

[kbates2]

I have to disagree with Ross as well, I believe the station needs to be downtown.

[Slick Vik]

At the meeting. Bunch of Ross clones here. Seems more like a neighborhood association protest than anything.

[Ross]

I have to disagree with Ross as well, I believe the station needs to be downtown.

 

Why? What extra benefit comes from having the station Downtown, where there's little room for parking, and far from the center of mass of people likely to use the service. What benefit is there to having the train spend an extra 15-30 minutes winding its way through neighborhoods to Downtown, when everyone could be off the train and on their way to their final destination at a terminus at Northwest Mall?

 

None of my colleagues who live in GOOF are in favor of a near 40 foot train trestle through their neighborhood.

[Luminare]

Anyone have the full scoop from the meeting? Details?

[UtterlyUrban]

Why? What extra benefit comes from having the station Downtown, where there's little room for parking, and far from the center of mass of people likely to use the service. What benefit is there to having the train spend an extra 15-30 minutes winding its way through neighborhoods to Downtown, when everyone could be off the train and on their way to their final destination at a terminus at Northwest Mall?

None of my colleagues who live in GOOF are in favor of a near 40 foot train trestle through their neighborhood.

1) what public transport connects to the NW mall? Is their light rail within a few blocks? If there isnt't, Is there a large bus transit center nearby? Are their dozens of bus routes bringing folks there from around the city? Hmmmm. Downtown already has that infrastructure.

2) does the NW mall have 100,000 business people M-F within a 1 sq mile radius? Exactly the kind of folks who might need to dash to Dallas for a day and who could walk to a downtown train station?

3) there is tons of parking at the NW mall. There is also tons downtown. And, if they build a station, they will build a garage too (my guess).

4) any idea why Amtrak, greyhound, and megabus (hugely popular btw... Lines and lines of folks waiting to take the megabus.... No parking on site.... Hugely popular still ....right across from metro transit center and a couple of blocks to rental car agencies....) all have stations downtown instead of the NW mall area?

I am quite sure that your colleagues are against the train going through their neighborhood. If it stops at NW mall, that would mean that it only goes through OTHER people's neighborhoods on its way north and south. Apparently, that is fine with them. Or, are they saying that they don't want the line built at all?

If they don't want the line built at all, it means that they don't want it in ANYONE'S back yard. That is fine. If they want it built but only if it impacts someone else's neighborhood, that is little more than a NIMBY-ism in my opinion.

Edited January 6, 2015 by UtterlyUrban

[DNAguy]

Why? What extra benefit comes from having the station Downtown, where there's little room for parking, and far from the center of mass of people likely to use the service. What benefit is there to having the train spend an extra 15-30 minutes winding its way through neighborhoods to Downtown, when everyone could be off the train and on their way to their final destination at a terminus at Northwest Mall?

 

None of my colleagues who live in GOOF are in favor of a near 40 foot train trestle through their neighborhood.

 

Is there any better acronym than 'GOOF' when describing these homeowners and their concerns.... ok, ok too easy.

 

Anyhow, you're missing the biggest and most ridiculous fallacy in your argument. You already have longer, louder, and slower trains going through your neighborhood. Your NIMBY-ism is showing so you better zip up your fly and tuck it back in. It's blinding you from seeing the forest from the trees here. 

 

If you think that NW mall is better b/c its closer to the 'real center' of Houston, it has real estate to accommodate a large station / development, it has the ability to connect w/ downtown AND the Galleria areas if/when METRO / COH invest in better public transportation, and it most likely will be cheaper then I might be more on your side.

 

Saying downtown is an inferior spot loses me though. It is most likely the best possible spot. as detailed by the post above. It has multiple locations (Hardy yards AND old Post Office) that can accommodate a large station / development. It is the center of Houston's public transportation and freeway system, it can be connected to the Galleria area (and already is connected to the Medical center) if/when METRO/COH invest in better public transportation,but is not the cheaper option.

 

So it comes down to cost.... which will most likely get you your outcome as this will be privately financed.

 

But what I can't understand is why you don't fight like hell to try and get this line THROUGH your neighborhood with the understanding / agreement from the developers that a.) it can't be elevated b.) Sections must be trenched and sound barriers installed at all at-grade rail locations. 

Edited January 6, 2015 by DNAguy

[kbates2]

1) what public transport connects to the NW mall? Is their light rail within a few blocks? If there isnt't, Is there a large bus transit center nearby? Are their dozens of bus routes bringing folks there from around the city? Hmmmm. Downtown already has that infrastructure.

2) does the NW mall have 100,000 business people M-F within a 1 sq mile radius? Exactly the kind of folks who might need to dash to Dallas for a day and who could walk to a downtown train station?

3) there is tons of parking at the NW mall. There is also tons downtown. And, if they build a station, they will build a garage too (my guess).

4) any idea why Amtrak, greyhound, and megabus (hugely popular btw... Lines and lines of folks waiting to take the megabus.... No parking on site.... Hugely popular still ....right across from metro transit center and a couple of blocks to rental car agencies....) all have stations downtown instead of the NW mall area?

I am quite sure that your colleagues are against the train going through their neighborhood. If it stops at NW mall, that would mean that it only goes through OTHER people's neighborhoods on its way north and south. Apparently, that is fine with them. Or, are they saying that they don't want the line built at all?

If they don't want the line built at all, it means that they don't want it in ANYONE'S back yard. That is fine. If they want it built but only if it impacts someone else's neighborhood, that is little more than a NIMBY-ism in my opinion.

 

(Hoodlum from Trading Places voice) YEAH.

[BigFootsSocks]

I don't want to attack Ross for his entitled opinions, but as I've said before, there's a lot of talk for commuter rail as a package with this HSR. If it goes to the NW Mall site, there's a really good chance that could happen. However, I think the homeowners along that corridor are simply grasping at straws in order to attack this; HSR going through this area won't be blasting through at 200, 100, or even 50 mph. They'll be quiet and out of sight (for the most part) while the regular freight trains will still be making a lot of commotion. A downtown station would more than likely spur downtown's renaissance even further.

[Slick Vik]

I was at the meeting. What an utter waste of time. It was like going to a meeting in the 1800's of the idea of ending slavery was proposed. Is eckels alive? People were angry basically your stereotypical pitchfork crowd. I wanted to comment but they may have killed me. But it was a bunch of uneducated imbecile NIMBY's. They would be okay with trains going on Washington but not in their neighborhood. Yea good luck with that when there are a lot of rich NIMBY's on that corridor also. It was all fear mongering and no substance. And as someone else said they already have much louder trains going through there. And if it ends at NW transit center then commuter rail will go down the same corridor. Which wil get hell also.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Slick Vik

[Tower26]

There are areas around downtown that can host a station mainly on the northeast corner and eastside of downtown around 610 and 59/69 and the warehouse district .Some of that area is railroad territory . Congress Yard several blocks east .I&GN Interchange near 59/69 , Jensen and a block east of where SP's 23rd St. Hardy Shops once stood  where UHD North Campus is . 

[Luminare]

I'm wondering if any of these shenanigans really even matters in the first place? I could see the impact if this was a government project, but it's completely private enterprise. Meaning if they get approval from the EPA, Feds, and the City of Houston then they can do whatever they want. If the city and TCR want the station in downtown then they will get it to downtown with or without the support of these NIMBY's. Much of these meetings seem to be simply to save face, gather info, and are most likely a government requirement, but even with last mile costs, etc... It's the greatest economic choice to put it in downtown. Not for the short term, but for the long term.

[Slick Vik]

I'm wondering if any of these shenanigans really even matters in the first place? I could see the impact if this was a government project, but it's completely private enterprise. Meaning if they get approval from the EPA, Feds, and the City of Houston then they can do whatever they want. If the city and TCR want the station in downtown then they will get it to downtown with or without the support of these NIMBY's. Much of these meetings seem to be simply to save face, gather info, and are most likely a government requirement, but even with last mile costs, etc... It's the greatest economic choice to put it in downtown. Not for the short term, but for the long term.

The scoping meeting was in October but only people educated in the project showed up. Someone in a neighborhood association found out later and now these meetings are to save face. But the comments mean nothing.

[Nate99]

Community meetings where there is an opposition to a project typically go that way Vik. You can have something as minor as a new power line in an existing ROW and the loonies descend from the rafters quoting what they thought they remembered from that time their cousin told them about Erin Brockovich.

 

I would defer to the legal process, but if Ashby Highrise has taught us anything, it is that with enough lawyering, you can string out nearly anything in court as long as your checks keep clearing.  

 

Property rights are what they are, no more no less, and over the fence is not your back yard.

 

Edited January 6, 2015 by Nate99

[Slick Vik]

Community meetings where there is an opposition to a project typically go that way Vik. You can have something as minor as a new power line in an existing ROW and the loonies descend from the rafters quoting what they thought they remembered from that time their cousin told them about Erin Brockovich.

I would defer to the legal process, but if Ashby Highrise has taught us anything, it is that with enough lawyering, you can string out nearly anything in court as long as your checks keep clearing.

Property rights are what they are, no more no less, and over the fence is not your back yard.

The scoping process was done a long time ago. Someone found out way later and demanded meetings with eckels.

[DNAguy]

I was at the meeting. What an utter waste of time. It was like going to a meeting in the 1800's of the idea of ending slavery was proposed. Is eckels alive? People were angry basically your stereotypical pitchfork crowd. I wanted to comment but they may have killed me. But it was a bunch of uneducated imbecile NIMBY's. They would be okay with trains going on Washington but not in their neighborhood. Yea good luck with that when there are a lot of rich NIMBY's on that corridor also. It was all fear mongering and no substance. And as someone else said they already have much louder trains going through there. And if it ends at NW transit center then commuter rail will go down the same corridor. Which wil get hell also.

[ADCS]

I'm wondering if any of these shenanigans really even matters in the first place? I could see the impact if this was a government project, but it's completely private enterprise. Meaning if they get approval from the EPA, Feds, and the City of Houston then they can do whatever they want. If the city and TCR want the station in downtown then they will get it to downtown with or without the support of these NIMBY's. Much of these meetings seem to be simply to save face, gather info, and are most likely a government requirement, but even with last mile costs, etc... It's the greatest economic choice to put it in downtown. Not for the short term, but for the long term.

 

Given that scoping was for environmental concerns, and as mentioned, was completed a while ago, this is all about sound and fury signifying nothing. If the residents had legitimate environmental impact concerns, there might be interference with the project. However, pure NIMBYism isn't going to derail (sorry) much of anything.

 

I'm sure the residents will be going to court soon; however, I don't see how they have much standing to contest the process.

[MaxConcrete]

Given that scoping was for environmental concerns, and as mentioned, was completed a while ago, this is all about sound and fury signifying nothing. If the residents had legitimate environmental impact concerns, there might be interference with the project. However, pure NIMBYism isn't going to derail (sorry) much of anything.

 

I'm sure the residents will be going to court soon; however, I don't see how they have much standing to contest the process.

 

I agree that the opposition will have no political effect and any legal challenge will fail as long as the public hearing process is being conducted in compliance with the law (and it almost surely is, since the coordinating agencies are experienced). The City of Houston and Harris County both support the project, and from the political perspective that is all that matters.

 

However, an opposition lawsuit would impose legal costs on Texas Central High-Speed Railway and could potentially cause delays. And that could make the inner loop section less attractive to TCHSR, causing TCHSR to select the Northwest Mall terminus option. Of course, that is exactly what the opposition wants.

 

As I posted in November, http://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/29470-high-speed-rail-texas-triangle/?p=485125, the inner loop section is likely to cost between $750 million and $1 billion. So if it can barely be justified from the investment perspective, a lawsuit and delay could be enough to cause TCHSR to drop it.

[Slick Vik]

I agree that the opposition will have no political effect and any legal challenge will fail as long as the public hearing process is being conducted in compliance with the law (and it almost surely is, since the coordinating agencies are experienced). The City of Houston and Harris County both support the project, and from the political perspective that is all that matters.

However, an opposition lawsuit would impose legal costs on Texas Central High-Speed Railway and could potentially cause delays. And that could make the inner loop section less attractive to TCHSR, causing TCHSR to select the Northwest Mall terminus option. Of course, that is exactly what the opposition wants.

As I posted in November, http://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/29470-high-speed-rail-texas-triangle/?p=485125, the inner loop section is likely to cost between $750 million and $1 billion. So if it can barely be justified from the investment perspective, a lawsuit and delay could be enough to cause TCHSR to drop it.

Except that it makes logical sense to go to the center of the city instead of an empty parcel that connects to nothing.

[ADCS]

I agree that the opposition will have no political effect and any legal challenge will fail as long as the public hearing process is being conducted in compliance with the law (and it almost surely is, since the coordinating agencies are experienced). The City of Houston and Harris County both support the project, and from the political perspective that is all that matters.

 

However, an opposition lawsuit would impose legal costs on Texas Central High-Speed Railway and could potentially cause delays. And that could make the inner loop section less attractive to TCHSR, causing TCHSR to select the Northwest Mall terminus option. Of course, that is exactly what the opposition wants.

 

As I posted in November, http://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/29470-high-speed-rail-texas-triangle/?p=485125, the inner loop section is likely to cost between $750 million and $1 billion. So if it can barely be justified from the investment perspective, a lawsuit and delay could be enough to cause TCHSR to drop it.

 

This is true, which is why that suit will hinge on the neighborhood(s)' standing in court. If the court finds that there is no potential injury to be remedied (very possible, given that we're talking about an existing rail corridor), then legal costs for TCR will be very much attenuated, and most likely already factored into the costs of construction.

 

On the other hand, if the court does find that the residents have standing, then that will almost certainly guarantee that the station would be at NW Mall, unless the legal budget is relatively high already.

[Luminare]

Literally all they have to do is supply existing evidence of use (example being Japan) and studies of the actual train itself and this case wouldn't last long in court at all. I would imagine that whoever is the local representative of these areas will put up a fight just so their citizens can see something being done, but behind all that it would just be settled out of court. A waste of court time and peoples money just because a few NIMBY's are that stubborn. It does more harm than good and it's just so they will have piece of mind. It should be a swift case and because of that shouldn't last very long.

[IronTiger]

I think that Japan is a poor example since density is substantially higher here. But typically judges tend to be pro-transportation, like the alternate proposal to Katy Freeway, a narrower depressed highway with rail running through.

[Slick Vik]

I think that Japan is a poor example since density is substantially higher here. But typically judges tend to be pro-transportation, like the alternate proposal to Katy Freeway, a narrower depressed highway with rail running through.

Every country in the world with high speed rail has high density?

[IronTiger]

Every country in the world with high speed rail has high density?

As you should know, rail is only effective at areas with high density, which is why rail works in places like Japan, South Korea, Western Europe, India, and Northeast United States. Therefore, taking an example like Japan, which is far higher density on average than Texas, isn't really applicable in this case.