Subways: Are They Possible?

[arche_757]

I'd love to see that data about number of jobs inside the loop, but I've never been able to find it. I don't think that its as high as is generally assumed though. I'm also not really sure that it's a fair barometer when considering potential impact of commuter rail. Commuter rail (like all rail) works great if you can move a large number of people from point to point, but overall transit time starts to become a factor if you're asking people to switch modes during their commute.

I agree with your comments about MARTA, I wouldn't consider it a complete failure, but I wouldn't necessarily consider it a success either. It's borderline in my opinion and definitely an interesting discussion as to how much value it has provided.

 

Well, Downtown employs 150,000 people.  TMC has what 85-100k?  Throw in Greenway plus all the other stores/shops/businesses inside the Loop and the numbers are probably quite high.  My guess is roughly 25-35% of all jobs in Houston are within that area, and another 6% or so in Uptown.  I think that's a fair assumption?

[HoustonIsHome]

And I'll still bet that in another 20 years when Dallas has grown by another 2 million it will be more successful. Transit is about offering options to people so cars needn't be the only way to get around. Look, Dallas built a system that it will grow into. They could have done a better job, but in the long run (decades) the system will likely be judged a worthwhile system - not the best, not the worst, but something to help give people transportation options.

Transit construction takes time to come full circle - sometimes years, sometimes less.

subway - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subway

light rail - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/light-rail

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_rail_terminology

Dallas built a system that was way too big for its britches.

It will always be slow, and there is little guarantee that much TOD will develop

[arche_757]

They always have the McKinney Avenue Trolley!

[Slick Vik]

No, it really wouldn't. I can't think of a city where commuter rail dumps people onto a slow light rail that stops every half mile, or a city where all the most major roads are narrow roads where you can't turn left due to a train.

I can, Istanbul

[IronTiger]

I think in terms of definitions, it's these:

- Commuter rail: passenger rail that goes on standard gauge tracks, usually self-powered, services entire region

- Light rail: typically surface (sometimes elevated, less often underground) rail that is powered with power lines

- Heavy rail: entirely grade-separated, multi-car system (4+) that runs on an electrified third rail, usually commuter-grade

- Subway: typically used in terms of heavy rail systems, but could be used in a light rail system

- Elevated rail: elevated heavy rail

Chicago, Washington DC, MARTA, NYC, Miami: all of these are heavy rail based systems

Minneapolis, DART, Houston METRO, Phoenix LRT: all of these are light rail systems

[HoustonIsHome]

I can, Istanbul

Geneva

Dublin

Both have commuter rail dumping you unto street cars/light rail

[cloud713]

All this MARTA talk is besides the point. MARTA is urban rail it is not a commuter rail system.

Like I said we need rail and lots of it in the core. So using MARTA as justification for commuter rail is off track

agreed.

that trenched commuter rail line idea super neighborhood 22 was throwing around a couple years ago, between the Post Office site or Hardy Yards/Burnett Station and a new TC (really just a LRT station next to the mall parking lot) at Northwest Mall, tying into an extended Uptown/Post Oak line would be ideal IMO. obviously it would eventually continue all the way out to Cypress.

also an express commuter or LRT hybrid route down Westpark from Wheeler Station out to Hilcroft for the time being, before extending out down Westpark to the end of METROs ROW in the suburbs near/past(?) Cinco Ranch, would also be ideal, to accommodate for inner city growth/travel needs.

i still say they should of planned/built the Hardy Tollroad downtown connector with additional ROW set to the side for commuter rail, along side the highway.

then of course a subway down Westheimer, and Kirby (north of Halcombe/Bellaire). and streetcars. lots and lots of streetcars, to extend the "last mile" range effect of the more expensive modes of rail, so the mass transit system is easily accessible by even more users. the streetcar plan for EaDo is a great start/example to pave the way for other areas to follow. then add some streetcar lines around Montrose and the TMC/Hermann Park/Rice, Upper Kirby/Greenway, and the greater Uptown area.

[Slick Vik]

Geneva

Dublin

Both have commuter rail dumping you unto street cars/light rail

And streetcars are being built all over the us now too. Cincinatti, Kansas City, Detroit, Atlanta, DC, San Antonio, Salt Lake City, Seattle, Portland, Dallas, and possibly Miami and Tampa.

Regarding BRT, it's good to a certain point. I've been to cities where it's taxed regardless of how many buses run. Mexico City, Leon Mexico, and Istanbul.

[IronTiger]

The idea that "light rail lines won't work as commuter lines because there's no way other way to get around the city" is a stupid argument. In New York City, the subways that everyone adores as a "world class transit system" are, at best, about 4-5 blocks from each other, or 9-11 blocks, which means that you'll end up walking or taking a taxi to cover that distance.

In fact, taxis are probably missing the link Houston needs. Do they have even have a system?

[Slick Vik]

The idea that "light rail lines won't work as commuter lines because there's no way other way to get around the city" is a stupid argument. In New York City, the subways that everyone adores as a "world class transit system" are, at best, about 4-5 blocks from each other, or 9-11 blocks, which means that you'll end up walking or taking a taxi to cover that distance.

In fact, taxis are probably missing the link Houston needs. Do they have even have a system?

Nothing wrong with a little bit of a walk. We have taxis but outside of midtown and airports you rarely see them

[Montrose1100]

The idea that "light rail lines won't work as commuter lines because there's no way other way to get around the city" is a stupid argument. In New York City, the subways that everyone adores as a "world class transit system" are, at best, about 4-5 blocks from each other, or 9-11 blocks, which means that you'll end up walking or taking a taxi to cover that distance.

In fact, taxis are probably missing the link Houston needs. Do they have even have a system?

I read somewhere we have the 3rd largest fleet of taxis in the country. The Hail a cab app works wonders and even during peak hours I have gotten a cab in less than 10 minutes. However, outside of the Loop, the system is poor. I once waited 3+ hours at some country bar inside the beltway.

[mollusk]

A subway is just rail running underground.. at least to me.  

 

True.

 

The Market Street Subway in downtown San Francisco is a prime example.  It has Muni Metro (light rail) on one level and BART (heavy rail) on another.  And the F Market street car on the street level (along with busses IIRC). 

[citykid09]

Wow! I did not realize that the Muni Metro had stations like this. I have traveled by BART before but never Muni. If METRO light rail stations in Houston were like this or had their own right of way, I would be just fine with light rail. I know not all of the Muni Metro System has its own right of way, but they also have BART, street cars, etc for their transportation options.

 

 

 

 

While I'm posting pictures I might as well post one of the main reasons I hate Houston's METRO Light Rail

Because it doesn't have this:

Its kind of hard to tell if your ticket is still good or not when you don't have a controlled environment and its really easy to cheat and ride for free with what Houston has.

 

 

 

[livincinco]

Well, Downtown employs 150,000 people. TMC has what 85-100k? Throw in Greenway plus all the other stores/shops/businesses inside the Loop and the numbers are probably quite high. My guess is roughly 25-35% of all jobs in Houston are within that area, and another 6% or so in Uptown. I think that's a fair assumption?

I think that might be a little on the high side, especially the Uptown number, but it's a reasonable estimate. I'm not sure that really helps the case for commuter rail though, because it highlights the problems related to a hub and spoke system. If we assume for the moment that Downtown is the hub for commuter rail, then I think that it's a stretch to assume that large numbers of people will take commuter rail to Downtown and switch to light rail to take them to TMC, Greenway, Uptown, etc. because the transit time starts to get onerous. Traffic in Houston is bad, but it's not close to the point that mass transit provides a comparable transit time.

Commuter rail generally isn't successful unless congestion/personal transportation cost gets so bad that it becomes an attractive alternative and I don't see Houston getting to that point in the foreseeable future because jobs are so disbursed (by your estimate 65-75% of jobs are outside the loop) and the highway network is so extensive.

[IronTiger]

I think that might be a little on the high side, especially the Uptown number, but it's a reasonable estimate. I'm not sure that really helps the case for commuter rail though, because it highlights the problems related to a hub and spoke system. If we assume for the moment that Downtown is the hub for commuter rail, then I think that it's a stretch to assume that large numbers of people will take commuter rail to Downtown and switch to light rail to take them to TMC, Greenway, Uptown, etc. because the transit time starts to get onerous. Traffic in Houston is bad, but it's not close to the point that mass transit provides a comparable transit time.

Commuter rail generally isn't successful unless congestion/personal transportation cost gets so bad that it becomes an attractive alternative and I don't see Houston getting to that point in the foreseeable future because jobs are so disbursed (by your estimate 65-75% of jobs are outside the loop) and the highway network is so extensive.

Yup. That's what I've been saying all along, commuter rails won't work because of all of those transfers.

[IronTiger]

What makes you think just creating lines will make people ride the raid and made it a successful system? You think that kust because the red line connects business centers that any line connecting to a business center will have riders? Talk to DART on that one.

Listen. The red line is successful because it replaced a taxed bus system. That area was already overflowing with riders. All Metro did was put those preexisting riders on rail. What DART did was create new transit corridors and just expected new riders to abandon their cars and use these new corridors instead. You have the same flawed thinking.

The DART Red Line actually didn't create a new corridor and has one of the best riderships on the system (the northeast line). It didn't create a new transit corridor and instead followed the Central Expressway southwest with about a 3-mile tunnel under the freeway for a cost of $115 million (take note).

The METRORail Red Line also worked the same way but had a light rail following predominantly Main Street.

As for how long the Green Line takes, from Carrollton to downtown is about 17 miles. Not sure if it's that's what you're counting in the "hour and a half" measurement, but to the end of the line of Houston Red from downtown is about 7 miles, with 17 miles, you'd end up south of Pearland (Bailey and 288), assuming the line started to follow 288. Not bad.

If that's the measurement that takes an "hour and a half", then certainly the commuter rail some of you are hawking would end up being something like that (counting transfers and all), and if the answer is "the freeways are quicker", than that's another issue altogether, because we don't know how the long the freeways will last before getting too miserable.

[totheskies]

I'd love to see that data about number of jobs inside the loop, but I've never been able to find it. I don't think that its as high as is generally assumed though. I'm also not really sure that it's a fair barometer when considering potential impact of commuter rail. Commuter rail (like all rail) works great if you can move a large number of people from point to point, but overall transit time starts to become a factor if you're asking people to switch modes during their commute.

I agree with your comments about MARTA, I wouldn't consider it a complete failure, but I wouldn't necessarily consider it a success either. It's borderline in my opinion and definitely an interesting discussion as to how much value it has provided.

 

No disrespect, but why would one have cause to even question the number of people working inside the loop, or in any specific area?  Are traffic patterns not proof enough??  If there were so few jobs in the inner loop, then why on earth are the inbound freeways so clogged up in the mornings, and outbound freeways clogged up in the evenings?  If everyone worked in Sugar Land, Kingwood or Katy, wouldn't it be the other way around?  Houston's employment demographics are not some scheme cooked up by a biased media group.      

 

But if we must... 

 

Downtown Employment:  150,000 

 

Texas Medical Center Employment:  106,000 (as of 2012) 

 

University populations (students, faculty and staff combined):  

UH:  46,000 (why staff isn't included here, I'm not sure.  But 3,500 staff members work at UH central).  

UHD: 14,898  

TSU:  11,000

UST:  4,000

Rice:  9,537

Total:  81,435 student population.  Didn't have time to look up HCC, but they have several inner loop and inner city campuses as well.  

 

And this doesn't even include Greenway Plaza, The Galleria, Rice Village, West Gray, The Museum District, Reliant arena, or the thousands of establishments in between which employ people outside of these specific areas.  There is NO reason to doubt the number of jobs inside the loop, or the fact that people need transportation options in the area!!!  

[livincinco]

No disrespect, but why would one have cause to even question the number of people working inside the loop, or in any specific area? Are traffic patterns not proof enough?? If there were so few jobs in the inner loop, then why on earth are the inbound freeways so clogged up in the mornings, and outbound freeways clogged up in the evenings? If everyone worked in Sugar Land, Kingwood or Katy, wouldn't it be the other way around? Houston's employment demographics are not some scheme cooked up by a biased media group.

But if we must...

Downtown Employment: 150,000

Texas Medical Center Employment: 106,000 (as of 2012)

University populations (students, faculty and staff combined):

UH: 46,000 (why staff isn't included here, I'm not sure. But 3,500 staff members work at UH central).

UHD: 14,898

TSU: 11,000

UST: 4,000

Rice: 9,537

Total: 81,435 student population. Didn't have time to look up HCC, but they have several inner loop and inner city campuses as well.

And this doesn't even include Greenway Plaza, The Galleria, Rice Village, West Gray, The Museum District, Reliant arena, or the thousands of establishments in between which employ people outside of these specific areas. There is NO reason to doubt the number of jobs inside the loop, or the fact that people need transportation options in the area!!!

No disrespect, but understanding commute patterns is pretty critical to know before investing hundreds of millions of dollars in transit. Nobody is questioning that there are a lot of jobs inside the loop, but remember that the discussion was in context of commuter rail. Commuter rail would most likely end at a single location and then require other forms of transit to get people to their ultimate destination. Total point to point transit time becomes a key concern in that kind of situation.

I appreciate your passion, but I would suggest that providing transportation options isn't really effective unless they are options that people will actually use.

[HoustonIsHome]

Commuter rail doesn't have to stop at one location. In Greater London for example. The commuter rails has few stops outside the metro, once it gets to the urban area it mirrors the urban rail and they share the same stops. In other writes the commuter rail becomes indistinguishable from the urban rail in the city but goes on to be commuter rail out of it.

[cloud713]

I think that might be a little on the high side, especially the Uptown number, but it's a reasonable estimate. I'm not sure that really helps the case for commuter rail though, because it highlights the problems related to a hub and spoke system. If we assume for the moment that Downtown is the hub for commuter rail, then I think that it's a stretch to assume that large numbers of people will take commuter rail to Downtown and switch to light rail to take them to TMC, Greenway, Uptown, etc. because the transit time starts to get onerous. Traffic in Houston is bad, but it's not close to the point that mass transit provides a comparable transit time.

Commuter rail generally isn't successful unless congestion/personal transportation cost gets so bad that it becomes an attractive alternative and I don't see Houston getting to that point in the foreseeable future because jobs are so disbursed (by your estimate 65-75% of jobs are outside the loop) and the highway network is so extensive.

Yup. That's what I've been saying all along, commuter rails won't work because of all of those transfers.

 

i think certain lines would work just fine...

the Westpark Line would be the best obviously, as it could possibly drop people off in the Westchase district, goes right past Uptown/the end of the uptown line, so those could be linked together. then it goes just south of Greenway, requiring just a pedestrian bridge or tunnel across/under 59. and then it would finally terminate at Wheeler Station, just a couple LRT stops from downtown..

the Hempstead/290 line would work pretty good too, connecting into a northern extension of the Post Oak LRT line at Northwest Mall, before going on straight into downtown/Post Office/UH-D sites, or the Hardy Yards at Burnett Station

a 288 line or a Sugar Land-90A to 288 line could connect into Fannin South Transit Station, before going on to the Texas Medical Center. they could even potentially elevate that line past the 288/59 merger on into downtown.

 

Commuter rail doesn't have to stop at one location. In Greater London for example. The commuter rails has few stops outside the metro, once it gets to the urban area it mirrors the urban rail and they share the same stops. In other writes the commuter rail becomes indistinguishable from the urban rail in the city but goes on to be commuter rail out of it.

that kind of reminds me of the "hybrid LRT" system weve discussed for certain routes, it just sounds like they have the types of trains switched around, using commuter rail for both tasks instead of LRT. i wonder which would be more effective?

[HoustonIsHome]

that kind of reminds me of the "hybrid LRT" system weve discussed for certain routes, it just sounds like they have the types of trains switched around, using commuter rail for both tasks instead of LRT. i wonder which would be more effective?

I think their system is quite effective.

Their metro area is almost exactly the sand size as the city of Houston. But their are rail lines that serve outside the metro area.

My cousin lives about 50 miles from the core of the metro and the rail takes about 1hr from his city to the core. But its not every day everyone goes to the tower of London to oogle the queen's jewels. London is a multipolar metro like Houston so the jobs are spread. So it makes sense that the commuter rail doesn't just have one stop in the core.

A Houston example would be a commuter rail from TW that stops in Spring, Greenspoint, over to the airport, Northline, downtown (one stop) then midtown, Greenway, uptown, hilcroft tc then out to sugar land. It would share stops on the red and university lines but you wouldn't have to actually get off and take those lines. Btw those cities have multiple entities controlling rail. A day pass would allow you on all the trains but that doesn't mean ask the trains will be metro. The woodlands may develop a line, Galveston may develop a line, etc etc. That's why I think the city should focus on the city and let the burbs take care of the burbs. The transit options are strengthened by duplicity.

[IronTiger]

See, I don't get why DART gets lambasted for "low ridership" because it partially functions like a commuter rail and why that's a bad thing, then the same types of people turn around and complain why we don't have commuter rail in Houston (often pointing fingers at politicians). This isn't to condemn commuter rail, I'm rather fond of the idea myself. In fact, Denver, which I don't think has been brought up, has built that type of system, a "streetcar" style light rail then going down south following (gasp!) existing railroad corridors. This all builds out to a distance of 13 miles at least to the south, equivalent of reaching Beltway 8.

[HoustonIsHome]

See, I don't get why DART gets lambasted for "low ridership" because it partially functions like a commuter rail and why that's a bad thing, then the same types of people turn around and complain why we don't have commuter rail in Houston (often pointing fingers at politicians). This isn't to condemn commuter rail, I'm rather fond of the idea myself. In fact, Denver, which I don't think has been brought up, has built that type of system, a "streetcar" style light rail then going down south following (gasp!) existing railroad corridors. This all builds out to a distance of 13 miles at least to the south, equivalent of reaching Beltway 8.

DART IS a commuter system.

And I don't think people complain on the liw ridership because it is a commuter rail.

I have heard:

It is slow

Didn't go where I want to go

Has stops that are just a grassy pasture.

You get to your desination on the burbs and then you are stuck

Is more expensive than taking my car

It is the longest light rail system but poor ridership.

I think DART is fine if you don't go too far. The bus and trolley system in the city esp downtown, uptown etc is fine. You get to certain suburban stops and you gotta phone a friend

[totheskies]

No disrespect, but understanding commute patterns is pretty critical to know before investing hundreds of millions of dollars in transit. Nobody is questioning that there are a lot of jobs inside the loop, but remember that the discussion was in context of commuter rail. Commuter rail would most likely end at a single location and then require other forms of transit to get people to their ultimate destination. Total point to point transit time becomes a key concern in that kind of situation.

I appreciate your passion, but I would suggest that providing transportation options isn't really effective unless they are options that people will actually use.

 

With that point, I agree completely, and I've never said that we shouldn't have a studies before expanding transit options.  But again, why would you have reason to believe that the inner loop employment numbers are underestimated?  

[Slick Vik]

Dart is working on streetcars to give people options once they enter the city. I think the big thing missing is an east west line from belt line to Richardson on 635. However if tex rail gets built from Fort Worth to Richardson that would be a big step up.

[IronTiger]

DART IS a commuter system.

And I don't think people complain on the liw ridership because it is a commuter rail.

I have heard:

It is slow

Didn't go where I want to go

Has stops that are just a grassy pasture.

You get to your desination on the burbs and then you are stuck

Is more expensive than taking my car

It is the longest light rail system but poor ridership.

I think DART is fine if you don't go too far. The bus and trolley system in the city esp downtown, uptown etc is fine. You get to certain suburban stops and you gotta phone a friend

A lot of that could be said of ANY light rail line, including Houston's.

Though it does argue the question: how long can a hybrid LRT go before it becomes impractical? What about commuter rail?

[samagon]

I can, Istanbul

 

 

Geneva

Dublin

Both have commuter rail dumping you unto street cars/light rail

 

Amsterdam

Munich

etc.

 

In the USA though...

[citykid09]

When you guys talk about commuter rail I hope you are talking about a system like BART:

 

But I know you are all really talking about a rail line like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqUt1IldUhU

 

I think a BART type system would take care of commuter and urban needs and the light rail would work to get people where they needed to go from there.

[arche_757]

I'm speaking of a BART type system.  The other system is what I would consider inter-city/heavy rail type.

 

I agree a system like what BART has would be a step in the right direction.

[IronTiger]

I'm speaking of MBTA commuter rail-type trains. The Northwest corridor is one of the few (and maybe The Woodlands/I-45) places where we don't need extensive new infrastructure for commuter rails.