Hardy Toll Road Extension

[Triton]

10 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Greenwashing the neighborhood to hide the bigger problem of a 4 lane highway cutting through increasing air pollution for the "parks"

But it's likely going to work. Although there's some that still don't like this project, adding all of these sporting areas and parks and the big shocker, capping parts of the toll road, was a surprise by those here on the Northside. Those on the fence seem more supportive now.

So far, the big complaint I still hear is that if they really are going to build this toll road through, they wish there was greater connectivity with the community it's traversing through. Perhaps add more ramps to get on and off of the toll road besides the one all the way at Calvacade. It's just too exclusive for those commuting to Spring and the Woodlands. At least build some ramps at Quitman. It's difficult to explain but the Northside has always felt a bit... cut off.. from the highway system. Some like that but some also believe that is the reason we haven't seen more development here and another reason why we probably won't ever get a major grocer here except for the Fiestas we have.

[hbg.50]

8 hours ago, Triton said:

But it's likely going to work. Although there's some that still don't like this project, adding all of these sporting areas and parks and the big shocker, capping parts of the toll road, was a surprise by those here on the Northside. Those on the fence seem more supportive now.

So far, the big complaint I still hear is that if they really are going to build this toll road through here, that they wished there was more connectivity with the community it is actually going through. Perhaps add more ramps to get on and off of the toll road besides the one all the way at Calvacade. It's just too exclusive for those commuting to Spring and the Woodlands. At least build some ramps at Quitman. It's difficult to explain but the Northside has always felt a bit... cut off.. from the highway system. Some like that but some also believe that is the reason we haven't seen more development here and another reason why we probably won't ever get a major grocer here except for the Fiestas we have.

After reading The Chronicle article the big “aha” for me was that both Hardy and Elysian streets will be left in tact.  Both of those streets could use some major beautification.  It seems the toll road is going east of Elysian along the train tracks and will be completely new.  Is this really for Spring and the Woodlands commuters?  I think all of north Houston benefits and especially downtown.

[samagon]

17 minutes ago, steve1363 said:

  Is this really for Spring and the Woodlands commuters?

it absolutely feels like this is a commuter tool to bypass i45 traffic. 

17 minutes ago, steve1363 said:

 I think all of north Houston benefits and especially downtown.

unless you're talking about reducing congestion on other highways, if the access to the tollway is inconvenient, or non-existent then it doesn't benefit.

while it does benefit business offices downtown by offering a quick way in, it also hinders the growth of anything other than business offices in downtown by offering a quick way out, which doesn't really help downtown.

considering the volume of office jobs that are remote and going remote, doing things to make commuting easier isn't really a long term win. 

Edited March 28 by samagon

[hbg.50]

3 hours ago, samagon said:

it absolutely feels like this is a commuter tool to bypass i45 traffic. 

unless you're talking about reducing congestion on other highways, if the access to the tollway is inconvenient, or non-existent then it doesn't benefit.

while it does benefit business offices downtown by offering a quick way in, it also hinders the growth of anything other than business offices in downtown by offering a quick way out, which doesn't really help downtown.

considering the volume of office jobs that are remote and going remote, doing things to make commuting easier isn't really a long term win. 

You need to think of downtown differently.  It is an entertainment district as much as a business district.  Improving access to downtown will help Discovery Green, Minute Maid Park, Shell Stadium, Toyota Center, Jones Hall, EADO, as well as the growing number of downtown residents.  Having a straight shot from the many hotels downtown to IAH will also be a huge benefit.  This connector is long over-due.

[j_cuevas713]

14 hours ago, Triton said:

But it's likely going to work. Although there's some that still don't like this project, adding all of these sporting areas and parks and the big shocker, capping parts of the toll road, was a surprise by those here on the Northside. Those on the fence seem more supportive now.

So far, the big complaint I still hear is that if they really are going to build this toll road through, they wish there was greater connectivity with the community it's traversing through. Perhaps add more ramps to get on and off of the toll road besides the one all the way at Calvacade. It's just too exclusive for those commuting to Spring and the Woodlands. At least build some ramps at Quitman. It's difficult to explain but the Northside has always felt a bit... cut off.. from the highway system. Some like that but some also believe that is the reason we haven't seen more development here and another reason why we probably won't ever get a major grocer here except for the Fiestas we have.

That's how it works. The community sees greenspace and they buy in. The reality is, those parks are going to have huge amounts of air pollution because each cap needs a small uncapped area as ventilation, only compressing that smog in to those vents. 

[MaxConcrete]

6 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

That's how it works. The community sees greenspace and they buy in. The reality is, those parks are going to have huge amounts of air pollution because each cap needs a small uncapped area as ventilation, only compressing that smog in to those vents. 

The pollution issue is greatly over-exaggerated. Going forward there will be more electric cars (no pollution) and hybrids (much less pollution) in the vehicle fleet. This tollway will have minimal or negligible trucks, which pollute much more than cars.

I recently lived alongside the Sam Houston Tollway for several years near an overpass and my opinion is that pollution from a freeway is a non-issue. Noise was also a non-issue except during usual wind conditions, although the tollway has a low-noise asphalt overlay in that area (Jersey Village).

The use of an expensive freeway cap for about 1.3 km is a huge violation of good judgement and responsible financial management. The main reasons to build a cap are to 1) Add park space where land is scarce or unavailable, and 2) if the freeway goes through the middle of an established neighborhood, to maintain connectivity.

Neither condition exists. There is an abundance of vacant land in the area, and many vacant parcels are being repurposed to parks as part of this project. The freeway cap adds a super-expensive 100 feet of width to the park, which brings the park to be alongside the heavily trafficked railroad. That makes no sense.

There is also no need to "connect" neighborhoods because of the triple-track railroad. Obviously the railroad is a permanent barrier. And the east side of the railroad has a large scrap yard, a truck yard and a warehouse.

The visioning enhancements, especially the trench and cap, will add massively to the cost, possibly $200 million or more. And that may be the intent of Harris County Commissioners Court. They (especially Hidalgo, but excluding Tom Ramsey) would rather spent toll revenue on enhancements than on the toll roads. They could also lower tolls further (more than 10% as was done in 2023) if there is surplus revenue.

[j_cuevas713]

2 hours ago, MaxConcrete said:

The pollution issue is greatly over-exaggerated. Going forward there will be more electric cars (no pollution) and hybrids (much less pollution) in the vehicle fleet. This tollway will have minimal or negligible trucks, which pollute much more than cars.

I recently lived alongside the Sam Houston Tollway for several years near an overpass and my opinion is that pollution from a freeway is a non-issue. Noise was also a non-issue except during usual wind conditions, although the tollway has a low-noise asphalt overlay in that area (Jersey Village).

The use of an expensive freeway cap for about 1.3 km is a huge violation of good judgement and responsible financial management. The main reasons to build a cap are to 1) Add park space where land is scarce or unavailable, and 2) if the freeway goes through the middle of an established neighborhood, to maintain connectivity.

Neither condition exists. There is an abundance of vacant land in the area, and many vacant parcels are being repurposed to parks as part of this project. The freeway cap adds a super-expensive 100 feet of width to the park, which brings the park to be alongside the heavily trafficked railroad. That makes no sense.

There is also no need to "connect" neighborhoods because of the triple-track railroad. Obviously the railroad is a permanent barrier. And the east side of the railroad has a large scrap yard, a truck yard and a warehouse.

The visioning enhancements, especially the trench and cap, will add massively to the cost, possibly $200 million or more. And that may be the intent of Harris County Commissioners Court. They (especially Hidalgo, but excluding Tom Ramsey) would rather spent toll revenue on enhancements than on the toll roads. They could also lower tolls further (more than 10% as was done in 2023) if there is surplus revenue.

That whole area was divided by 59. It's still historically old 5th Ward. And you're also forgetting emissions from tires not just exhaust. 

[samagon]

On 3/28/2024 at 9:58 PM, MaxConcrete said:

The pollution issue is greatly over-exaggerated. Going forward there will be more electric cars (no pollution) and hybrids (much less pollution) in the vehicle fleet. This tollway will have minimal or negligible trucks, which pollute much more than cars.

even if every new car sale in the next 10 years is fully BEV, or even just PHEV, there's still our existing fleet, which will take a while to cycle out of use. so even on a super aggressive timescale, we're looking at at least 20 years. considering the uptake of BEV has slowed recently, 10 years is super duper stupid aggressive assumption, we're probably looking at 20 years, or more before you can't go into a dealer and buy an ICE vehicle, which means 30 years before vehicle emissions is negligible. 

it's a worthless discussion to talk about what may be. what is, now that's a different thing. where emissions related pollution on the hardy is already miles better than either 45, or 59 is congestion. at all times of the day, every day, 45 is slow, and 59 isn't much better. from downtown to BW8 you can go between 30 and 45mph and call it a good day. on hardy, there are other vehicles, but you can set your cruise at 70, and just steer all the way from start to finish. that's where the negligible pollution comes from.

but at the end of the day, adding a tollway will add vehicle miles, once they make the downtown connection, it may end up being as heavily used as the westpark tollway, and that will increase pollution significantly. even if there isn't a huge influx of traffic, the pollution will increase. and that's the point, and the problem.

On 3/28/2024 at 9:58 PM, MaxConcrete said:

I recently lived alongside the Sam Houston Tollway for several years near an overpass and my opinion is that pollution from a freeway is a non-issue. Noise was also a non-issue except during usual wind conditions, although the tollway has a low-noise asphalt overlay in that area (Jersey Village).

yeah, your place in JV probably had double paned windows, and plenty of insulation. I am about 1000ft from the gulf freeway in a home that was built at about the same time as the homes along the hardy corridor, but with updates to insulation, and stuff that they probably don't have. I hear the freeway well enough.

 

[Triton]

The only thing I don't see in the news is when they expect this to begin...?

[Texasota]

Why would you argue with someone who literally chose the name "MaxConcrete"? That's, at best, not someone you're going to convince.

[IWantTransit555]

On 4/6/2024 at 7:10 AM, Texasota said:

Why would you argue with someone who literally chose the name "MaxConcrete"? That's, at best, not someone you're going to convince.

Hey, you can build transit with concrete too.

[jessicau]

I don’t like that the Northside and 5th Ward are divided by 59 or 5th Ward is divided by 59 and now it will be divided once again with another highway. Would the city run a highway through the Heights? No.

[hbg.50]

30 minutes ago, jessicau said:

I don’t like that the Northside and 5th Ward are divided by 59 or 5th Ward is divided by 59 and now it will be divided once again with another highway. Would the city run a highway through the Heights? No.

Some would argue the Heights is divided by 3 freeways (I-45 with Lindale “Heights” to the east, 610 with Independence “Heights” to the North, and I-10 with Washington “Heights” to the South).  Don’t make this racial.  It’s a natural extension of the Hardy Toll Rd.

[Houston19514]

41 minutes ago, jessicau said:

I don’t like that the Northside and 5th Ward are divided by 59 or 5th Ward is divided by 59 and now it will be divided once again with another highway. Would the city run a highway through the Heights? No.

Already divided by the railroad tracks, (which I believe are actually the western boundary of the 5th Ward).

[samagon]

On 4/20/2024 at 8:25 AM, Houston19514 said:

Already divided by the railroad tracks, (which I believe are actually the western boundary of the 5th Ward).

I came here to say this. there is a railroad track.

there are already only 6 cross streets from one side of the tracks to the other, which I assume would be preserved, and in this case, local residents probably have the same issues with the crossings in that area as we do on the east side, in that trains make frequent stops blocking the crossings. taking that into account, there's only 2 reliable paths from one side of the tracks to the other between i10 and 610.

there's plenty of reasons that this shouldn't happen, but saying that this is going to divide a neighborhood isn't it.

[JLWM8609]

54 minutes ago, samagon said:

there's only 2 reliable paths from one side of the tracks to the other between i10 and 610.

That will increase to three once the Quitman overpass is built. It's too bad that the plans don't include a Cavalcade overpass/underpass at the railroad. I frequently see trains stopped on the West Belt track there.