Why Casual Visitors To Houston Area Skip Downtown

[RedScare]

All too often, we are influenced by what others insist we must have to be considered a top city, as opposed to enjoying and improving upon what we have. Just as residents of other cities run around renaming districts to sound like SoHo, they also condemn anything that doesn't look like what the "city snobs" have decreed is cool.

Houston has its issues, but they are not unlike those problems faced by a number of cities. They are not insurmountable, either. Newcomers to downtown may not think it is perfect, but works in progress seldom are. One need only see what downtown looked like 10 years ago to realize how far it has come. Those who don't know how bad it was, will never be convinced of that.

[The Great Hizzy!]

You get no argument out of me. What I'm trying to do is get people to say what exactly they think Houston needs to do that is being done in other cities (since the implication is that Houston lacks some vitals that other cities have -- that is, the Top Ten).

Just saying it without any specifics sounds whiney and subjective.

[MidtownCoog]

For downtown, since some posters think it's such a urine soaked hell hole:

We could do a better job keeping it clean. But littering scuzballs will be scuzballs.

We could remove traffic cones when the construction is done.

[Kirzania]

We could remove traffic cones when the construction is done.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hold the phone. You mean there's an actual storage facility for construction cones/signs? ... You're pulling my leg, aren't you? This is some kind of sick joke, right? ... Heh. You're quite the funnyman, Midtown.

[lowspark]

Maybe someone can name one thing that Houston does not have that most other cities do.

And "zoning" is not a thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Reasonable mass transit. Oh well, you asked!

I am a native, lived here my whole life. So yeah, I've got a few opinions & ideas about Houston.

The thing about Houston is that it is a very unique city. I think most cities consist of a central business/residential/retail conglomeration, with suburbs surrounding that. In Houston, that central area got redefined as it grew outward and what used to be suburbs became part of the central area as more suburbs popped up even farther out. As a result, downtown, as the core of the central area lost its residential and retail aspects. So instead of downtown being a thriving populated area 24/7, it became a destination for business and arts only. In effect, there's just no other reason to go to that area of town.

Is that a bad thing? Maybe. I'm not convinced. Why do we have to strive to be like ANY other city? I agree that Houston is viewed negatively by outsiders. And yet, look how our population has boomed in the last 25 years. Wonder how we'd squeeze in all those extra people if everyone found out how great it REALLY is here!

Maybe, just maybe, Houston is more the "modern" city BECAUSE we were born so late. Maybe our model with retail/residential clusters all over the city makes more sense than trying to squeeze everyone back into the small downtown area for ALL their entertainment. And maybe striving to be more like Chicago or Denver or Dallas or whatever shouldn't be our goal. Maybe our goal should just be to be a better Houston.

So, I'll come right out and say it. Houston is a wonderful, unique city, that does need improvements in some areas (what city doesn't?) but that doesn't want or need to be like other cities. And those of us who love Houston as it is (potential improvements notwithstanding) can't understanding why anyone would just want to turn it into a carbon copy of ANY other place.

Oh, and as a p.s., I wonder what happened to the original poster and his mystery restaurant. The whole story sounds pretty darn fishy to me, as any restaurant that doesn't have restrooms would have been closed down already. I can't imagine that he was the only one who wanted to use the facilities in that place. The fact that he refuses to name the place only reinforces the probability that his story was at best exaggerated and at worst, made up.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Reasonable mass transit. Oh well, you asked!

Most cities have reasonable mass transit? Are you sure?

[lowspark]

Most cities have reasonable mass transit? Are you sure?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, let me put it this way. Most cities have a better mass transit system than we do. Feel free to correct me and cite examples if I'm wrong.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Are you including buses as part of mass transit? Because if so, then I would say that several cities/metropolitan areas don't stack up to METRO as a transit agency, and this includes:

San Diego

Denver

Phoenix

Dallas

Miami

Detroit

San Antonio

New Orleans

Cleveland

And several others

If you're speaking of rail specifically, then I more understand where you're coming from (but even that wouldn't be objectively accurate).

[lowspark]

OK, maybe I'm crazy! I do admit I don't know much about most of the cities you mentioned. But how about New York, Washington DC, Chicago, San Francisco, and (can I go further afield?) London, Paris.

I guess my point, (although maybe not well stated) is that undeniably, mass transportation is one aspect of Houston that definitely needs improvement. Don't you agree?

[Kirzania]

OK, maybe I'm crazy! I do admit I don't know much about most of the cities you mentioned. But how about New York, Washington DC, Chicago, San Francisco, and (can I go further afield?) London, Paris.

I guess my point, (although maybe not well stated) is that undeniably, mass transportation is one aspect of Houston that definitely needs improvement. Don't you agree?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One again, someone wants to compare apples and oranges. Our mass transporation is a rigorous machine that actually follows a seeable schedule. They have a user-friendly website, to boot. Makes finding schedules and maps easy. And guess what - our buses almost always follow that schedule. The cities which need to be added to that list are Louisville, Lexington, Columbus, and Indianapolis. Think about our sprawl, dear. Once again, Metro caters to the commuters and sprawl.. There aren't many other cities that do, save NYC Metro and San Fran. My example: LexTran claims "Increased frequency on Nicholasville and Tates Creek Roads." Translation: "We have two buses on that route instead of one. We'd add a third, but our buses just keep breaking and we don't know why!"

[MidtownCoog]

needs improvement

I think we have a plan for that in the works.

I can't really speak for mass transit. I only take the park and ride a few days each week.

But I do know you can get around the city pretty well on the buses just by looking at the schedules.

[lowspark]

Ok, let's leave the comparisons aside for a minute. Seriously, can you, would you, live in Houston without a car? Can you get to work, shopping, restaurants, doctor's office, etc, without a car? I mean, can you leave your house and walk a reasonable distance to some kind of transportation, bus, rail, whatever, and get to within a walkable distance of where you need to go?

I think it's great that the buses run on schedule! But really meaningless to me if I can't ride them because they don't go where I need them to.

Oh, and just as an aside, I like a lively discussion. We might not agree but let's treat each other with respect. IOW, no need for a condescending "dear" in your reply.

[Kirzania]

Ok, let's leave the comparisons aside for a minute. Seriously, can you, would you, live in Houston without a car? Can you get to work, shopping, restaurants, doctor's office, etc, without a car? I mean, can you leave your house and walk a reasonable distance to some kind of transportation, bus, rail, whatever, and get to within a walkable distance of where you need to go?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It all depends on where you live. When I lived in downtown, I only needed my car to go visit relatives out in Katy. Now that I'm back in Katy and I commute in with my uncle and fiance, there's no need for a bus and I couldn't get anywhere without a car. But that's Katy, not Houston.

I find it odd how we've gotten from

"a 37-year-old woman drove out of a private driveway on Fannin and collided with a southbound train. He said the woman was cited for failure to yield right of way." The woman was cited for failure to yield right-of-way, but really, shouldn't it be the designers of the train who should be cited for incredibly poor design....

to arguing restaurants and now, mass transit.

And just for the record, "dear" and "honey" are just how I talk. I try not to use them on the boards, but sometimes it happens. You should never read forums and attempt to inflect voice.

[MidtownCoog]

What cities in the US can you actually live without a car?

NYC

DC

SFO

[lowspark]

Maybe what I should have said was not "live without a car" but go places on a regular basis without a car. Yeah, I guess if you live, work and have all your recreation within a very small radius, you could do without. And I do agree that there are very few cities where you don't need a car sometimes.

I just think it would be a huge improvement to our city if I could take mass transportation -- door to door, so to speak -- to even a few places.

So, I'll put the question to you point blank. Are you saying that Houston does NOT need to improve its mass transportation?

[RedScare]

I think it is amusing how we got onto trnasit also, but the title of the thread didn't really address the original topic, so here we are.

I agree with lowspark that Houston should not try to emulate others just to fit in. Sounds like a high school clique. In fact, downtown shouldn't even try to emulate other population centers in Houston, such as Uptown or The Woodlands Mall, as has been suggested.

Houston had what was considered one of the best run transit systems in the country. Now that money is being spent on rail, some suggest Metro is ignoring its backbone, the bus system. I am not sure I agree yet. One thing is certain. The transit is good inside the loop, and decreases in effectiveness as it moves farther out. This is to be expected, given the size and density of the service area.

Back to downtown, I get the impression that many of the negative remarks are really a cover for the real issue, which is that these people want downtown to be what THEY would like. Well, downtown is not a shopping mall, it is not a rich playground, it is not "family friendly" in the Disneyland sense. It IS a center for business, the arts, sports and related entertainment. And it is constantly evolving.

Back to the question. What does Houston not have that other comparable cities do have?

[Ethanra]

Houston has several areas of shopping entertaining and eating. Maybe thats the problem. Theis other citeies have one established area for everything. Thats what I was trying to post before. The galleria, village etc... has to hurt DT being a hub for tourism. Which cities that have a "model" DT should we study? Sorry, 713to214, deffinately not Dallas. In my strong opinion I beleive the way we have several cores instead of the cores being built as one, like in CHicago, that is the problem. Maybe with light rail being added it would connect theis cores, creating more of an unity.

Secondly, I don't think Houston markets it self as a tourist destination. First of all you ask some houstanians and majority of outsiders about our weather, they say "hot and Hotter" We all know that is retarted, We have 3 to 4 months of hot and 8 months of beautiful weather except for some close to freezing nights. Why doesn't the city try to sell the nice months. Houston needs a marketting department that can sell it great sides, as well as that can listen to opinions of what can be improved. For example, Look at Dallas it does a great job selling it self, people for the most part always have positive things to say about it before they arrive or ever been their.

Side note- "Houston lacks Mass Transportation" What a joke!!! Just because we are in the beging stages of light rail how could any way say that. Houston bus system is run like a champ. Carries 200,000+ a day. Light rail 30,000+ a day. Third largest cab fleet in the nation, I know its not mass transportation but it helps if u need a short ride somewhere. Just because Houston didn't invest billions in a train system that doesn't work efficiently and loses millions apound millions a year, like Seattle, Dallas,Miami etc... DOesn't mean "Houston lacks Mass Transportation". We are blessed that the city took a step back and learned from other cities mistakes and IMO is building one of the most efficient light rail plans in the nation. If you look at the riders per mile and the expectation of the new lines it is amazing.

Maybe we need to create a new chat and give an idea of what projects houston can do to improve its image and/or just to better it self.

Thankyou

[houstonfella]

A guy from Philly says our downtown is broke down?     

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Will the last person leaving Philadelphia please turn off the light!!!!!

Houston's downtown is much better than 10 years ago and getting better. After all, if you want to see a really boring downtown, try Dallas.

[SpringTX]

("What does Houston not have that other comparable cities do have?")

An air of snobby self-importance that "progressive" west coast cities have?

A gigantic housing bubble with an average home priced at $1 million...and poised for a nosedive?

A stagnant economy crippled by labor unions?

Really crummy weather?

No beach nearby?

A decrepid infrastructure built over a century ago?

Bad zoning (which is worse then no zoning)?

[lowspark]

I guess I hit a nerve with my mass transportation comment. Little did I know!

I'm really wondering, those of you who tout our mass transit as exemplary, what percentage of the time do you take a bus instead of driving? And I don't mean park & ride, I mean, WALK out of your house to a bus stop, get on a bus, get off the bus and walk to your destination.

I'm really just curious.

[RedScare]

("What does Houston not have that other comparable cities do have?")

An air of snobby self-importance that "progressive" west coast cities have?

A gigantic housing bubble with an average home priced at $1 million...and poised for a nosedive?

A stagnant economy crippled by labor unions?

Really crummy weather?

No beach nearby?

A decrepid infrastructure built over a century ago?

Bad zoning (which is worse then no zoning)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, I guess I concede those points.

"I guess I hit a nerve with my mass transportation comment. Little did I know!

I'm really wondering, those of you who tout our mass transit as exemplary, what percentage of the time do you take a bus instead of driving? And I don't mean park & ride, I mean, WALK out of your house to a bus stop, get on a bus, get off the bus and walk to your destination.

I'm really just curious."

I take it once a week, mostly because I am on this damn forum too much, and end up late, so I have to drive.

[MidtownCoog]

Houston's #1 selling point?

No ZONING!

That's what makes us funky. You don't have to travel far to get what you want.

And there is always room for improvement, and from what I can tell we are working on it.

I do my part in downtown.

How about you?

[ssullivan]

I guess I hit a nerve with my mass transportation comment. Little did I know!

I'm really wondering, those of you who tout our mass transit as exemplary, what percentage of the time do you take a bus instead of driving? And I don't mean park & ride, I mean, WALK out of your house to a bus stop, get on a bus, get off the bus and walk to your destination.

I'm really just curious.

I do it all the time when I'm not of town for work. This week I've been working downtown at a client, and have not driven there yet. With the exception of driving to see a movie with friends last night, my car hasn't left the parking garage at my complex since I arrived home from a weekend trip to San Diego Sunday night. But I've worked three days so far downtown this week.

I also take the bus/train to get downtown to meet friends for dinner/theater/movies at the Anglika/Astros/etc. Occassionally I'll even venture to the Galleria on the bus if I have the extra time it takes to do so. It can be more interesting and enjoyable than driving, plus I'm doing my part to reduce congestion and pollution.

I'm not alone in this; there are many others out there who have a car, great income, and still choose to take public transit for some trips. And yes, I think Houston has a very good bus system. Yes it could be better (I'd love to see more frequencies on certain routes) but overall it's one of the best bus systems in the country.

[brijonmang]

Houston's #1 selling point?

No ZONING!

That's what makes us funky.  You don't have to travel far to get what you want.

And there is always room for improvement, and from what I can tell we are working on it. 

I do my part in downtown.

How about you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what exactly is "your part"?

[KinkaidAlum]

I would add...

Boston

Philadelphia

Seattle

Portland

Chicago

I know folks in all of these places that live car free. AND, when you need a car or just plain want a car, there are businesses like zipcar.com in which you can buy a "time-share" for lack of a better description.

[lowspark]

One again, someone wants to compare apples and oranges. Our mass transporation is a rigorous machine that actually follows a seeable schedule. They have a user-friendly website, to boot. Makes finding schedules and maps easy. And guess what - our buses almost always follow that schedule. The cities which need to be added to that list are Louisville, Lexington, Columbus, and Indianapolis. Think about our sprawl, dear. Once again, Metro caters to the commuters and sprawl.. There aren't many other cities that do, save NYC Metro and San Fran. My example: LexTran claims "Increased frequency on Nicholasville and Tates Creek Roads." Translation: "We have two buses on that route instead of one. We'd add a third, but our buses just keep breaking and we don't know why!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

from the bus thread on the Transportation site....

The commuter buses don't run 24/7 that's for sure. There's actually a point (from 12-3.30, I believe) where they don't run at all. I forget when they stop, since I was usually on the 5pm bus out. The latest the LightRail runs is on Fridays and Saturdays, which is at 2.15am. The rest of the week is 12.45am. If you live and work in downtown, it's not hard to get by with only a bicycle. Randall's and (oye) CVS are walking distance, so are lots of dry cleaners - 2016 Main had their's right in the building. And the Angelika is a lightrail ride and a few blocks away.

If you're in the burbs, you're SOL as far as buses go to get to, say, the grocery store.

The rest of the schedules and whatnot are on RideMetro.org.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kirzania, I call your attention to the above two quotes by you. The gist of it is, if you live in the burbs, you're SOL. So, I guess that means me. I live in the burbs. Yeah, if you call 2 miles outside the loop the burbs. I went ahead and checked the Metro website in case I was missing something, but even by transfering, I can't get from my house to work by bus. I live off of S. Braeswood & Hillcroft & work in Greenway Plaza. I didn't check if I could get there by taking three buses, I figured two was my limit. I would leave my car at home in a heartbeat if I could get to work by bus!

I don't live in Midtown or work in downtown. So the bus is not an option for me. And apparently for anyone else who doesn't live/work in those locations. So, while the fact that it runs on time is admirable, and although I really don't know this to be fact, I'll concede that we have a well run system. That still does not address the fact that most of the city is not well-served by our mass transportation system.

That's my point, which maybe I didn't make clear from the beginning. I'd love to see us spend just a few of the $$ that we currently allocate to widening freeways on adding bus routes -- that would go so far towards alleviating the need for wider freeways.

Back on topic. I still contend that our downtown doesn't need to emulate other downtowns to be great. Houston needs to figure out its own way without following other cities' models.

[The Great Hizzy!]

^^^ Yes, you would need to transfer twice to get from Hillcroft/Braeswood to Greenway Plaza. There are a few combos, including taking the 68 Brays Bayou, transferring to the 49 Chimney Rock @ Chimney Rock/Braeswood, then transferring to the 25 Richmond at S. Rice/Richmond.

Are you saying that having to transfer more than once is too much?

[MidtownCoog]

I am downtown growing a business, spending money, using the public transportation and supporting local businesses.

[lowspark]

^^^ Yes, you would need to transfer twice to get from Hillcroft/Braeswood to Greenway Plaza. There are a few combos, including taking the 68 Brays Bayou, transferring to the 49 Chimney Rock @ Chimney Rock/Braeswood, then transferring to the 25 Richmond at S. Rice/Richmond.

Are you saying that having to transfer more than once is too much?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It takes me 20 minutes TOPS and usually more like 15 to drive to work. If I had to transfer twice, I wonder how long it would take me.

As a teenager, I lived in Westbury and had a job in Sharpstown Mall, a 20 minute drive from my house. I didn't have a car so I took the bus. I had to take a bus to the corner of Main & Holcombe, then a bus that went west on Holcombe to Bellaire & SW Freeway. Between the two buses & waiting time, it took me no less than 1 hour & 20 minutes, and some times more. I just can't see doing anything like that now that I have a car.

So yeah, if it took me say 30 minutes (a 50% increase over my current communte time) to get to work on the bus, I'd go for it. I would be pretty surprised if I could make it to work in less than an hour taking three buses. And waiting at three bus stops in Houston heat is not exactly attractive. Waiting at one would be ok, two, tolerable, three, to travel approximately 7 miles is, IMHO, excessive.

[713 To 214]

I am downtown growing a business, spending money, using the public transportation and supporting local businesses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What kind of business? Maybe, we can all come down and support it.