Why Casual Visitors To Houston Area Skip Downtown

[Ethanra]

I always have heard Denvers DT is very nice and has a lot of foot traffic. Why doesn't Houston? That seems the focus point question of this thread. I know DT to me has always been about buisness or the wonderful theatre district. Why else would someone come to DT. The night life has just started in the last few years. When I use to go out I remember Shepeard Plaza being the hot spot (10 years ago). SHopping and retail would bring some action. With the galleria and its surrounding shopping boutiques, as well as the village their is no need to invest $ in to DT retail for a new buisness. Theis other locations are already established. I'v always thought when Houston was exploding 20 years ago it would have been wonderful if all the housing shopping and offices of the galleria area from woodway to richmond was built to fill in DT throughout Midtown it would have created more of a Northeastern city fill. By that I mean more walkable areas where people lived shopped and worked. IMO I think its just to late for a brilliant DT with the galleria already established the way it is. The only hope I see for DT houston is the new rail line which woulf connect some of theis vital areas.

Sorry if none of this makes sense I only have a few min to type my opinions.

Side note- People do have very bad images of Houston from that other site that velvet were talking about. Houston is a strange city, u really have to live here to understand how great it really is. In my line of work I go to new homes daily and I would say majority of the people came here with a negative attitude but after a while fall in love with this city.

[Ethanra]

Sorry one more thing. Do the cities up north and in CHicago have huge shopping malls like we do. IMO with memorial city sugarlands mall etc... why would people have to shop in DT even if they built retail their? Maybe our big malls in every community outside the loop hurts the possibility of DT retail.

[713 To 214]

Unfortunately, you won't get many on this forum to discuss the problems in Houston, and how to fix them. Most are too busy in other threads, telling each other how Houston can do no wrong.

[MidtownCoog]

Lack of retail in downtown is not a problem IMHO.

A little bit more would be fine, but when I shop, I want AC.

[Ethanra]

Unfortunately, you won't get many on this forum to discuss the problems in Houston, and how to fix them.  Most are too busy in other threads, telling each other how Houston can do no wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree with majority of your post and how synical you normally are, but this post you hit it on the head. I agreee with you completely.

[MidtownCoog]

And from someone down here everday, this week has seen a ton of tourists both on the street and in the tunnels.

Some of you need to get off the net and actually step foot downtown.

[Guest danax]

Unfortunately, you won't get many on this forum to discuss the problems in Houston, and how to fix them.  Most are too busy in other threads, telling each other how Houston can do no wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seems to me we've discussed a lot of problems and how to fix them, but I'm thinking by problems you mean problems in terms of what Houston lacks compared to other cities, ie; why we don't have such and such whereas another city does.

Perhaps part of the reason we don't seem as desperate as you might think we should is because 1) a lot of us don't travel a lot to see how great the other cities are and 2) we realize that, 10 years ago, DT Houston was a dump so the progress is great. Also, this town has so much vacant and usable land compared to other cities that development seems slow if you focus on a specific area.

I see progress and I like the way DT is shaping up so I'm happy.

[RedScare]

I see a lot of smack talk by a bunch of people who never come downtown, and good things said by people who do come downtown. For those who care, I'd listen to the ones who know, not the ones who call it in from 240 miles away.

Let me put it this way. I think downtown does so well, that my office is ON Main Street. I believe that is putting my money where my mouth is. I don't really care if former residents don't like it. We'll get by without you, as tough as that may be. I also don't care about the comparisons to "top ten cities", whatever that may be. Hell, Ethanra was trashing Houston compared to Denver, and he stated in his post that he'd not been there. How can you compare if you haven't been there?

For those of you who think you are going to convince the rest of us that downtown sucks, save your fingers. We like it here. That's why we didn't have to leave. And your insults don't work either. Lots more important people than you have tried, but we still like it, warts and all.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to have a cocktail in MY downtown.

[SpringTX]

I think, as a matter of courtesy, no one on this board (or any other board) should unconditionally/recklessly/unapologetically criticize something they don't personally have some sort of vested emotional stake in, and in its future. For example, I love Houston and I want to see it have a better future. So I feel comfortable making laments and constructive criticisms about how my beloved city can get its act together (like most others do on this board from time to time). I would NOT feel the same comfort level if criticizing my former city of Washington, DC...because, honestly, DC is in the past for me, as it should be, and I care only slightly what happens to DC. Here's another example. I rarely go to downtown Houston. And I don't have much attachment to downtown. So you won't catch me unconditionally criticizing downtown Houston on this forum. To do so would be, in my opinion, pretty darn rude and tasteless. I also don't criticize Katy on this board, although I lived there briefly and I could criticize plenty of things about it. If I say anything about downtown or Katy, I try to always make sure that I do it in a way that is sensitive to the many folks on this forum who love those places dearly. I think this is fair yardstick for all participants on this forum to follow.

[SpringTX]

Let me also add a couple quick points. A city is what you make out of it. If you can't find something to like about the 4th largest city in the country, then that says something more about yourself and your lack of resourcefulness, than about the city itself.

As for those of you who haven't been anywhere outside of Houston, you're not the only ones on this board. I've lived in several different cities for long stretches of years, and I've travelled to over 70 different cities around the country, staying in each one for extended durations. And I love Houston. Like someone said earlier, Houston looks like ____ from an outsider's perspective. Before I moved here, I thought the place was a complete dump. But that was just a superficial impression. After you actually live here for a little while, you start to find an amazing wealth of hidden gems upon hidden gems. It's truly an amazing an unique and fascinating and wonderful city.

[RedScare]

To add a point to Spring's post, there are plenty of constructive criticisms here, many by me. There are also some respectful disagreements. But, there are certain posters who only complain, and amazingly, only really complain that other posters don't complain as much as they. I have no use for someone who can't back up his complaints with articulable facts, rather than berating others for not agreeing with him.

If you have something worth saying, say it. If not, go to another board that appreciates unsubstantiated crap.

[713 To 214]

Not that I have to prove anything to anyone here, but, I thought all of the Haters might be interested to know that I'm in Downtown Houston every other week on business at City Hall or the courthouses. You can normally find me staying at Hotel Club Quarters, unless I want a change of pace/scenery and stay at the Westin Galleria. I normally spend my down time at The Flying Saucer on Main Street. Stop by next Wednesday, and I'll buy a beer for all of you who show up. Now, when all the Haters get ready to stop attacking me, and focus that same intense energy toward the deficiencies of Houston, then we can talk sensibly. Until then, I guess I'll continue to express my opinion, and the Haters will continue to pat themselves on the back for proving what good advocates they are of how great Houston already is, via their attacks on me.

[713 To 214]

I also don't care about the comparisons to "top ten cities", whatever that may be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do you constantly compare Houston to other cities, then? (I'm sure you'll respond with the usual: "no I don't, that's what you do")

[713 To 214]

For those of you who think you are going to convince the rest of us that downtown sucks, save your fingers.  We like it here.  That's why we didn't have to leave.  And your insults don't work either.  Lots more important people than you have tried, but we still like it, warts and all.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to have a cocktail in MY downtown.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You need a drink man, because, contrary to your assertion, the insults (your words, not mine) are having an affect on you. BTW, make it a double!

[713 To 214]

I think, as a matter of courtesy, no one on this board (or any other board) should unconditionally/recklessly/unapologetically criticize something they don't personally have some sort of vested emotional stake in, and in its future.  For example, I love Houston and I want to see it have a better future.  So I feel comfortable making laments and constructive criticisms about how my beloved city can get its act together (like most others do on this board from time to time).  I would NOT feel the same comfort level if criticizing my former city of Washington, DC...because, honestly, DC is in the past for me, as it should be, and I care only slightly what happens to DC.  Here's another example.  I rarely go to downtown Houston.  And I don't have much attachment to downtown.  So you won't catch me unconditionally criticizing downtown Houston on this forum.  To do so would be, in my opinion, pretty darn rude and tasteless.  I also don't criticize Katy on this board, although I lived there briefly and I could criticize plenty of things about it.  If I say anything about downtown or Katy, I try to always make sure that I do it in a way that is sensitive to the many folks on this forum who love those places dearly.  I think this is fair yardstick for all participants on this forum to follow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for being the forums' moral compass. You should try to speak from the facts, as opposed to speculation.

[Ethanra]

.  Hell, Ethanra was trashing Houston compared to Denver, and he stated in his post that he'd not been there.  How can you compare if you haven't been there?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never was trashing Houston buddy. I wasn't even comparing the two. I was just stating an opinion of maybe why Houston DT doesn't have many tourist as it could. Reason, the retail end is lacking. Why is it lacking, because the retail is already established around the galerria and the village. Please rerad my post.

Thankyou

[MidtownCoog]

50 years ago ALL the shopping was downtown.

And there was no Galleria, Gulfgate, Highland Park Village, etc, etc, etc.

Should we canabalize our existing shopping in the name of brining tourists downtown?

If tourists want to shop, it's not like they don't have options.

And is also not like downtown has nothing to do.

[Ethanra]

50 years ago ALL the shopping was downtown.

And there was no Galleria, Gulfgate, Highland Park Village, etc, etc, etc.

Should we canabalize our existing shopping in the name of brining tourists downtown?

If tourists want to shop, it's not like they don't have options.

[SpringTX]

Thanks for being the forums' moral compass.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're welcome. I think everyone needs to be held a little "accountable" (for lack of a better word) in a moral sense by his peers every once in a while. I know I definitely benefit from it when I receive it.

You should try to speak from the facts, as opposed to speculation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's why facts aren't always enough, in my opinion. A fact may be that a person has a wart on his nose. Do I need to bring attention to it? And, if I do, how do I do so? Do I say to him: "gee, that's one ugly wart on your nose"? Or do I say to him: "I noticed you have a slight skin blemish since I last saw you - I feel bad for you - it reminds me of the time I had one that lasted seemingly forever - it sure was hell"? In my opinion, the second one is better than the first because it shows more sensitivity and empathy, which is more conducive to constructive and meaningful dialogue.

[713 To 214]

Here's why facts aren't always enough, in my opinion.  A fact may be that a person has a wart on his nose.  Do I need to bring attention to it?  And, if I do, how do I do so?  Do I say to him: "gee, that's one ugly wart on your nose"?  Or do I say to him: "I noticed you have a slight skin blemish since I last saw you - I feel bad for you - it reminds me of the time I had one that lasted seemingly forever - it sure was hell"?  In my opinion, the second one is better than the first because it shows more sensitivity and empathy, which is more conducive to constructive and meaningful dialogue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A lot of truth in that. Cheers to you sir/mam!

[713 To 214]

Perhaps part of the reason we don't seem as desperate as you might think we should is because 1) a lot of us don't travel a lot to see how great the other cities are and 2) we realize that, 10 years ago, DT Houston was a dump so the progress is great. Also, this town has so much vacant and usable land compared to other cities that development seems slow if you focus on a specific area.

I see progress and I like the way DT is shaping up so I'm happy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for your response. I can appreciate that point of view. However, I would say that travel to other cities will open your eyes, somewhat, to things that could increase your quality of life. Contrary to popular belief on this forum, Houstonians can learn from other cities' mistakes/accomplishments. . .just as those other cities can learn from Houston.

[RedScare]

Not that I have to prove anything to anyone here, but, I thought all of the Haters might be interested to know that I'm in Downtown Houston every other week on business at City Hall or the courthouses.  You can normally find me staying at Hotel Club Quarters, unless I want a change of pace/scenery and stay at the Westin Galleria.  I normally spend my down time at The Flying Saucer on Main Street.  Stop by next Wednesday, and I'll buy a beer for all of you who show up.  Now, when all the Haters get ready to stop attacking me, and focus that same intense energy toward the deficiencies of Houston, then we can talk sensibly.  Until then, I guess I'll continue to express my opinion, and the Haters will continue to pat themselves on the back for proving what good advocates they are of how great Houston already is, via their attacks on me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is amusing. I am at "the courthouses" every day. Anyone with serious business at "the courthouses" would not be doing business at "City Hall", and vice-versa. But, I have to admit, it sounds impressive to someone who may not have business in either place. I doubt you are a lawyer, since you have no debating skills. If you are in a support business, you would need to have city, county and federal contracts to do business at "the courthouses" AND "City Hall". So, I am guessing you must be the shoe shine guy, or maybe the guy who sells umbrellas outside when it rains, because I can't think of any businessman who does business at "City Hall" and "the courthouses" other than them.

My previous comments still stand. Most of us here like it here. We understand why you left. And, now we find it amusing that you have to come back here every two weeks to make a living (if, in fact, you do).

[713 To 214]

This is amusing.  I am at "the courthouses" every day.  Anyone with serious business at "the courthouses" would not be doing business at "City Hall", and vice-versa.  But, I have to admit, it sounds impressive to someone who may not have business in either place.  I doubt you are a lawyer, since you have no debating skills.  If you are in a support business, you would need to have city, county and federal contracts to do business at "the courthouses" AND "City Hall".  So, I am guessing you must be the shoe shine guy, or maybe the guy who sells umbrellas outside when it rains, because I can't think of any businessman who does business at "City Hall" and "the courthouses" other than them.

My previous comments still stand.  Most of us here like it here.  We understand why you left.  And, now we find it amusing that you have to come back here every two weeks to make a living (if, in fact, you do). 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the kind words and assumptions about my profession. . .as usual, you've got it all figured out. I'll still buy you a drink next week. I'm sure you know how to get to the Flying Saucer.

[RedScare]

I'll still buy you a drink next week.

[RayLSU]

In my best Law & Order voice:

"I'm not at liberty to divulge that information at this time..."

But, next time, you walk into an downtown Houston eating establishment (especially newer ones), ask if they provide public restroom facilities for their patrons....

Something tells me that this is a common practice not to provide them in downtown Houston, but I don't know why. Is it because of plumbing/sanitary sewer issues?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dude...you should try eating at more than one restaurant in downtown Houston before pontificating on what the norm is downtown. I've eaten at probably 80% of them as I work downtown and live in Midtown...there is no restaurant that doesn't have a bathroom. Unless you can divulge your "phantom" restaurant, then everyone should just treat your post as 'noise'.

As far as all of the other posting...Houston really dropped the ball on downtown. Sure, it is moving in a positive direction, but it is at such a snail pace that I am afraid that most of us will never see downtown Houston as a thriving place of residence.

Unfortunately, Houston will continue to be looked down upon by visitors. I would if I didn't live here...to the casual observer, it doesn't offer much. Traffic, commutting, homeless, heat, and no zoning. I know that Houston is better than that...but that's what the casual observer sees. However, I don't think our homeless issue is any worse than other comparable cities of its size...but it is accentuated with the (1) lack of downtown residents, and (2) 65-75% of workers dowtown never seeing daylight b/c they do everything in the tunnels (so you see more homeless compared to "normal people").

Houston developers downtown basically are the reason that living downtown isn't popular. You have to build up a downtown resident population to get a sustainable infrastructure (shopping, groceries, 7 day a week dining, etc.). Unfortunately, they priced the sq footage of the apartments too high. Now, the residents don't want to pay a premium to live in a downtown environment where to you have to drive to River Oaks or Midtown to do any shopping (not that there is much in Midtown at all...but that should change).

I'm off the soapbox. Houston needs to look to Denver and Seattle on how to get their downtown's more urban. It will never catch the likes of Chicago, Philly, etc. But more modern cities like Houston are doing things the right way. As much as I hate to admit it, we just have to look 300 miles north to see things being done better and smarter than here...in Dallas.

[MidtownCoog]

thriving place of residence

Who's goal is that?

Yours?

Why live downtown when there are tons of neighborhoods all around it? I see people who do live down here walking their dogs and think "what a hardship."

Y'all act like the only places to live are 30 miles out.

A mile or two from downtown you can find a real neighborhood, and not a concrete jungle.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Maybe we can have some specifics:

1) Dallas-- what exactly can Houston learn from it?

2) Denver -- what exactly can Houston learn from it?

3) Seattle -- what exacty can Houston learn from it?

4) Chicago -- " " "

5) Phoenix -- " " "

6) San Diego -- " " "

7) Miami -- " " "

8.) Cleveland -- " " "

9) Los Angeles -- " " "

10) San Antonio -- " " "

11) Philadelphia -- " " "

12) Jacksonville -- " " "

13) Tampa -- " " "

14) Cincinnati -- " " "

15) New York -- " " "

16) Boston -- " " "

17) Washington -- " " "

18) Honolulu -- " " "

19) Charlotte -- " " "

20) Atlanta -- " " "

21) "Other" -- " " "

If you've seen something somewhere that you think works wonderfully, maybe expressing (in specifics) what that "something" "somewhere" is might lead to the type of discussions that persons like 713-to-214 and Velvet J would like.

Get set, get ready, go...

In fact, I'll go first with a couple:

1) Miami -- I like the fact that Bayside, DT Miami's only real entertainment center has shops and restaurants (trendy, chain-type places, but restaurants neverhtheless) surrounding a marina. Unfortunately, Bayside sits off to itself, away from the core of highrises and other "attractors" downtown. As we've all lamented, the Bayside design seems like a better design/result than Bayou Place.

2) Jacksonville -- See above. Unfortunately, the Landing is dead in the evenings, be it weekday or weekends, and there is NO foot traffic in Jax no matter the time of day or week. But the Landing at least looks nice.

3) "Other" -- Pittsburgh's Golden Triangle (specifically Point State Park) at the eastern confluence of the "three rivers" is a good example of preserving and beautifying a valuable geographic feature at the city's core. In this, I'd like to see the Buffalo Bayou Redevelopment plan gain some more momentum, but I admit to being tired of seeing the bayou's untreated brown water as well as the unkempt weeds at the very north of downtown (save for the section near Allen's Landing and the Baker Street Jail).

Next...?

[MidtownCoog]

Every city has something great to offer without a doubt.

But so many can

[bachanon]

the problem with your examples of miami and pittsburgh is that these locations have geography that we lack; they are both on large bodies of water. we can't compete with those locales with the exception of the buffalo bayou master plan. houston is unique in it's geography and to look to these other types of developments is to ask houston to be something it isn't.

i agree it's important to contrast and compare; however, urban planning and transportation systems of cities larger than houston would better serve our focus than simply great/pretty developments that we are not likely to reproduce because of our location and levels of tourism.

[MidtownCoog]

Maybe someone can name one thing that Houston does not have that most other cities do.

And "zoning" is not a thing.