Rail To Uptown In Time For The Super Bowl?

[Slick Vik]

This appears to be plagiarized text. Please give proper attribution to the author, including a link.

Thank you.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/interstate/faq.htm#question23a

[livincinco]

However, President Eisenhower was not aware of the urban highway segments. His model for the Interstate System had been Germany’s autobahn: the rural highway network he had seen during and after World War II. In the summer of 1959, rumor has it that he discovered the existence of urban highway segments when he passed construction of the Capital Beltway while being driven to the presidential retreat at Camp David. An alternative theory is that he discovered the truth when he talked with urban planners about the District of Columbia’s freeway network. Whichever way he found out, President Eisenhower asked his friend and adviser, retired General John Bragdon, to conduct a broad review of the Interstate program.

On April 6, 1960, the President met with Bragdon, Secretary of Commerce Frederick Mueller, Federal Highway Administrator Bertram Tallamy, and others, to review Bragdon’s preliminary findings, including his view that the Interstates should include only roads that carry intercity traffic around and into cities. Other urban Interstates should be eliminated. Mueller and Tallamy objected. The President responded that he now knew that the city officials and Members of Congress understood the urban highway segments were part of the program, even if they were contrary to his views. By then, he had heard of, but not seen, the Yellow Book (Mueller handed him a copy) and had been told that it was one of the prime reasons Congress passed the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956. Although the concept was against his wishes, he felt his hands were tied. The urban Interstates would remain part of the program.

It sure sucks when the constitutional system works exactly the way that it's supposed to. I mean after all Congress should have no ability to control matters of spending against the President's wishes. I mean just because that's what the Constitution states, they certainly shouldn't have that right.

Of course, this post has nothing to do with whether state and local built highways should extend to a cities core, but this was all caused by GM brainwashing Congress anyway.

Just look at how living standards in the US have plummetted since these highways were built. Too bad we can't go back to the good old days of the early 1930s.

[livincinco]

I suggest you read the power broker. Any halfway knowledgable person on the subject of New York knows Robert Moses single handedly decimated the Bronx with his policies.

 

Oh yeah, any halfway knowledgeable person knows that.  It's a shame that those losers at Columbia University and the New York Times aren't halfway knowledgeable about New York like the rest of us are.

 

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0DE3D61F30F93BA15752C0A9619C8B63

[Slick Vik]

Oh yeah, any halfway knowledgeable person knows that. It's a shame that those losers at Columbia University and the New York Times aren't halfway knowledgeable about New York like the rest of us are.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0DE3D61F30F93BA15752C0A9619C8B63

Did you even read the article?

Mr. Caro spent seven years on his book, conducting 522 interviews and combing thousands of personal and public documents. To scholars who take a revisionist approach, he urges caution. ''The enduring legacy of Robert Moses includes magnificent achievements, which I celebrated in 'The Power Broker,' '' he said. ''But it is also necessary to look at his overall impact.''

He cited the ouster of more than half a million people from their homes in the Bronx, on Manhattan's Upper West Side, in Sunset Park in Brooklyn and on Long Island farms for the sake of new highways or ''slum clearance'': evictions that largely could have been avoided by using alternate routes and that in some cases helped create new slums.

[livincinco]

Did you even read the article?

Mr. Caro spent seven years on his book, conducting 522 interviews and combing thousands of personal and public documents. To scholars who take a revisionist approach, he urges caution. ''The enduring legacy of Robert Moses includes magnificent achievements, which I celebrated in 'The Power Broker,' '' he said. ''But it is also necessary to look at his overall impact.''

He cited the ouster of more than half a million people from their homes in the Bronx, on Manhattan's Upper West Side, in Sunset Park in Brooklyn and on Long Island farms for the sake of new highways or ''slum clearance'': evictions that largely could have been avoided by using alternate routes and that in some cases helped create new slums.

 

Absolutely.  There's nothing more convincing than an author rebutting criticism of his own work.  I mean, for example, this hack, seems to think that we shouldn't accept everything that Mr. Caro says about the impact of the Cross-Bronx Expressway.  He's only got a PhD from Cambridge and a professor at University of Albany in urban planning.  Too bad, he's not knowledgeable enough about New York City to understand that Mr. Caro is right in everything he says.  I mean, considering the economic impact of other things that were happening in the Bronx at the time???  How crazy is that???

 

www.albany.edu/gp/CVs/NotSoSimple.pdf

[KinkaidAlum]

Oops.  My mistake.  I meant to show how the Bronx looked back in the 1930's before there were a lot of cars and I linked on wrong image.  Sorry!

 

http://forgotten-ny.com/wp-content/gallery/tribal_custom_1/bruckner1.jpg

 

I don't want to step too far into this argument, but this picture clearly isn't from the 1930s unless the Bronx had access to cars from the future.

[Slick Vik]

Absolutely. There's nothing more convincing than an author rebutting criticism of his own work. I mean, for example, this hack, seems to think that we shouldn't accept everything that Mr. Caro says about the impact of the Cross-Bronx Expressway. He's only got a PhD from Cambridge and a professor at University of Albany in urban planning. Too bad, he's not knowledgeable enough about New York City to understand that Mr. Caro is right in everything he says. I mean, considering the economic impact of other things that were happening in the Bronx at the time??? How crazy is that???

www.albany.edu/gp/CVs/NotSoSimple.pdf

27 page paper vs. 1200+ page heavily researched book.

Not much of a fight

[livincinco]

27 page paper vs. 1200+ page heavily researched book.

Not much of a fight

I never realized that length mattered more than content. In that case, the phone book is the greatest scholarly work ever created.

[Slick Vik]

I never realized that length mattered more than content. In that case, the phone book is the greatest scholarly work ever created.

Read the book

[livincinco]

Read the book

Not really that interested, sorry. Your statement was that no "halfway knowledgeable person about New York denied that Robert Moses single handedly decimated the Bronx". I referenced respected authors who disagree with that statement. Your statement has therefore been proven false, because there is clearly disagreement on that subject.

To support your statement, you need to prove that the author of the article cannot be considered "halfway knowledgeable about New York". Please address that or retract your statement.

[Slick Vik]

Not really that interested, sorry. Your statement was that no "halfway knowledgeable person about New York denied that Robert Moses single handedly decimated the Bronx". I referenced respected authors who disagree with that statement. Your statement has therefore been proven false, because there is clearly disagreement on that subject.

To support your statement, you need to prove that the author of the article cannot be considered "halfway knowledgeable about New York". Please address that or retract your statement.

 

Again, read the book. Robert Moses is also the reason the Brooklyn Dodgers and New York Giants left.

[RedScare]

I'm curious what Robert Moses would have done to get rail built in time for the Super Bowl.

[livincinco]

Again, read the book. Robert Moses is also the reason the Brooklyn Dodgers and New York Giants left.

 

I will take that as you retract the statement as you are choosing to not refute it.  Regarding the Dodgers and the Giants,  to say that Robert Moses is the reason that those teams left New York is yet another gross simplification of history, but those kind of generalizations really don't surprise me anymore.  However, I'm really not interested in taking this thread any further off track than it already is.

[samagon]

I'm curious what Robert Moses would have done to get rail built in time for the Super Bowl.

 

I wear a wristband that says "W.W.R.M.D.?" to remind me of this every day.

[livincinco]

It is pretty funny that we're 195 posts into a thread where the original question was conclusively answered in post #3.

[Slick Vik]

I will take that as you retract the statement as you are choosing to not refute it.  Regarding the Dodgers and the Giants,  to say that Robert Moses is the reason that those teams left New York is yet another gross simplification of history, but those kind of generalizations really don't surprise me anymore.  However, I'm really not interested in taking this thread any further off track than it already is.

 

I am not retracting my statement. Comparing a short paper to a book that was thoroughly researched and is lauded as one of the best books ever written is like comparing Matt Maloney to Michael Jordan. Again, please read the book so we can have a proper discussion on Robert Moses.

 

Secondly, Robert Moses is the reason the Dodgers, and thus the Giants left. There is no oversimplification here. O'Malley wanted the stadium at the location that the Barclays center is at now, because of its location, numerous subway lines stop there and the LIRR as well, but Moses refused to budge and wanted it where Shea Stadium ended up becoming. Years and years of not budging one but left O'Malley with no choice but to pack up and move. He didn't want to. Go read up on the history.

[jt16]

It is pretty funny that we're 195 posts into a thread where the original question was conclusively answered in post #3.

 

This whole transportation forum is completely unreadable now.  It has basically become one person's quest to force everyone to think and live the way they want you to. 

[RedScare]

I am not retracting my statement. Comparing a short paper to a book that was thoroughly researched and is lauded as one of the best books ever written is like comparing Matt Maloney to Michael Jordan. Again, please read the book so we can have a proper discussion on Robert Moses.

 

Secondly, Robert Moses is the reason the Dodgers, and thus the Giants left. There is no oversimplification here. O'Malley wanted the stadium at the location that the Barclays center is at now, because of its location, numerous subway lines stop there and the LIRR as well, but Moses refused to budge and wanted it where Shea Stadium ended up becoming. Years and years of not budging one but left O'Malley with no choice but to pack up and move. He didn't want to. Go read up on the history.

 

You say this as if it were a bad thing. By moving to Los Angeles, the Dodgers ended up becoming one of the most successful franchises in all of sports. You make it sound like being one of the most valuable teams in sports is terrible. 

 

Your value system makes no sense whatsoever. You think capitalism is bad. You think liberty is bad. You think everything except subways and tenements is bad. I want nothing of whatever you like.

 

And, I actually LIKE mass transit. I just don't like the communist version that you are pushing. I don't think the US was founded on forcing people to sell their cars and get on a train.

[livincinco]

You say this as if it were a bad thing. By moving to Los Angeles, the Dodgers ended up becoming one of the most successful franchises in all of sports. You make it sound like being one of the most valuable teams in sports is terrible. 

 

Your value system makes no sense whatsoever. You think capitalism is bad. You think liberty is bad. You think everything except subways and tenements is bad. I want nothing of whatever you like.

 

And, I actually LIKE mass transit. I just don't like the communist version that you are pushing. I don't think the US was founded on forcing people to sell their cars and get on a train.

 

FYI- I moved the Robert Moses conversation to another thread.

[RedScare]

This whole transportation forum is completely unreadable now.  It has basically become one person's quest to force everyone to think and live the way they want you to. 

 

Not only that, but we are threatened if we try to correct that one person. The moderators need to take all of these thread hijacks by Slick and combine them into one thread. That way Slick can just post once in one thread. And, they need to delete every one of his hijacks of other threads. 

[Slick Vik]

You say this as if it were a bad thing. By moving to Los Angeles, the Dodgers ended up becoming one of the most successful franchises in all of sports. You make it sound like being one of the most valuable teams in sports is terrible. 

 

Your value system makes no sense whatsoever. You think capitalism is bad. You think liberty is bad. You think everything except subways and tenements is bad. I want nothing of whatever you like.

 

And, I actually LIKE mass transit. I just don't like the communist version that you are pushing. I don't think the US was founded on forcing people to sell their cars and get on a train.

 

I'm thinking from the perspective of fans of Brooklyn Dodgers. Also that franchise had a LOT of history. For NY to lose two franchises like that was heartbreaking. How did you feel when the Oilers left?

 

As for the rest of the things you're saying, that's all a mass exaggeration.

 

I feel like I live in a communist state as far as transit is concerned, we have no options except driving for the most part. Me fighting for a better transit system is considered communist, yet the people in charge are the ones who have been trying their level best to stop any type of reasonable alternative. Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

[samagon]

 How did you feel when the Oilers left?

 

If and only if the Texans win the Superbowl, will the day the Oilers left be superseded in my mind of the being the best sporting day in Houston's history.

 

A close second was the look on Bud Adams face when the Titans got within a yard of actually winning the super bowl.

 

I am very glad that guy is out of our town.

 

Oh, and I was in the dome when Mike Scott pitched his no-hitter, and I still say this. (of course, these days, everyone that lived in Houston in 1986 says they were at the dome, but I really and truly was at the dome, my mom liked to take me to baseball games).

[august948]

I feel like I live in a communist state as far as transit is concerned, we have no options except driving for the most part. Me fighting for a better transit system is considered communist, yet the people in charge are the ones who have been trying their level best to stop any type of reasonable alternative. Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

It's funny you feel that way since the remaining communist countries have the following car ownership rates:

cuba 38 cars/1000 people

china 85/1000

north korea 11/1000

vietnam 13/1000

laos 20/1000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita

Many citizens of communist countries are forced to live in tenements, as there is no private property ownership, and have some of the lowest car ownership rates in the world. Isn't that what you've been arguing for all along?

[Trae]

Not only that, but we are threatened if we try to correct that one person. The moderators need to take all of these thread hijacks by Slick and combine them into one thread. That way Slick can just post once in one thread. And, they need to delete every one of his hijacks of other threads.

He brings activity to this section so his leash is long tbh

[Slick Vik]

It's funny you feel that way since the remaining communist countries have the following car ownership rates:

cuba 38 cars/1000 people

china 85/1000

north korea 11/1000

vietnam 13/1000

laos 20/1000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita

Many citizens of communist countries are forced to live in tenements, as there is no private property ownership, and have some of the lowest car ownership rates in the world. Isn't that what you've been arguing for all along?

 

Just like residents are forced to ride a horrific bus system or shell up thousands to buy a car. Why should we not be allowed a good public transportation system like every other "world class" city?

[RedScare]

Horrific...

 

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously.

[skwatra]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita
 

 

I think i'm going to move to San Marino so i can own 1.263 cars!

[samagon]

compared to finding the state with the highest cars per capita, I think that's a great idea.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_vehicles_per_capita

 

nobody wants to move to wyoming, and it isn't even higher than San Marino.

[skwatra]

not cars per capita, vehicles. i assume this includes tractors and the like. the linked 'vehicle' in wiki includes bicycles, but i doubt that's included.

[kylejack]

Yeah, I have a feeling those are vehicles registered with state governments.