White Flight When Did It Start

[Ross]

So, what you are saying is that if I, as a developer, build a multi-family tower in River Oaks with units averaging 5,000 sq f and priced to rent at $10,000 per month, I have to include a few $800 per month units to satisfy your sense of social justice. That is insane. Or, in a 2,000 house subdivision with average prices of $250,000, I have to offer some $80,000 houses, And once again lose money on the deal. All for some nebulous goal that ignores the fact that people self segregate and that you can't force people to be successful.

[Slick Vik]

So, what you are saying is that if I, as a developer, build a multi-family tower in River Oaks with units averaging 5,000 sq f and priced to rent at $10,000 per month, I have to include a few $800 per month units to satisfy your sense of social justice. That is insane. Or, in a 2,000 house subdivision with average prices of $250,000, I have to offer some $80,000 houses, And once again lose money on the deal. All for some nebulous goal that ignores the fact that people self segregate and that you can't force people to be successful.

So segregation was okay, but reintegrating is not? That mean that the original goal was completed two have two separate societies. And reeks of underlying racism.

[IronTiger]

Tensions boil. Your hypothesis that one incident triggered riots is hilarious and sad.

Did we switch minds here? I thought YOU were saying that the 1960s riots were caused by redlining.

How you think desegregation was being handled and what actually took place are two separate things.

Again, please tell me how I'm wrong.

3. Widening the gap? A lot of widening was done by the segregationist redlining policies which created ghettos and as a result public housing projects. HUD can fix the problem once it gets greater powers, which hopefully will happen this year or next. Basically, if any city takes federal money for anything, it also has to do something to reintegrate as well. For example, every apartment tower should require a percentage of affordable units. Every freeway expansion should be required to build community centers and plant trees in low income areas. If you make a mess, make some effort to fix it.

That's not fixing the problem. Public housing tends to keep people poor, and even with food assistance, recipients often sell it off or otherwise abuse it and let their kids go hungry.

Finally, I'm not calling you a racist, but you seem rather indifferent to the lasting result of redlining. It has created areas where you are trapped, and nearly impossible to escape. South side Chicago and areas like it in every city in the country. Like the report says I'm my sure if you're really familiar with what's actually going on in these areas. I know. I go to neighborhoods every day you wouldn't dare step in, for various reasons: eating, haircuts, basketball, boxing. And there's a different reality there. Kids are forced to join gangs. If they don't they are brutally beaten and sometimes die. If they leave they die. One of my friends was killed for leaving a gang. Another has a hit on him for leaving one. People don't even know if they'll make it home from school safely. This is a reality you'll never understand, and the fact that it was created by greater powers and hasn't been reversed except for a few short years of good work by George Romney is sad and pathetic.

I'm not indifferent to poor areas. The biggest problem there is a majority of kids without fathers, and all of them are living in urban areas, where regulation, high taxes, and other factors keep them living "on the plantation".

I especially like your patting yourself on the back for going to (at least purporting you go to) neighborhoods, thinking it somehow gives you privilege on the things to talk about.

[Slick Vik]

Did we switch minds here? I thought YOU were saying that the 1960s riots were caused by redlining.

Again, please tell me how I'm wrong.

That's not fixing the problem. Public housing tends to keep people poor, and even with food assistance, recipients often sell it off or otherwise abuse it and let their kids go hungry.

I'm not indifferent to poor areas. The biggest problem there is a majority of kids without fathers, and all of them are living in urban areas, where regulation, high taxes, and other factors keep them living "on the plantation".

I especially like your patting yourself on the back for going to (at least purporting you go to) neighborhoods, thinking it somehow gives you privilege on the things to talk about.

 

1. I did say that.

 

2. You are mentioning things like busing kids from one part of town to the other. I am talking about HUD using its power to force cities to reintegrate. Two totally different things.

 

3. This is a factor but you aren't acknowledging the fact neighorhoods were more diverse before the redlining policies took effect. These created the ghettos we see today.

 

4. The commission report did the same thing. White America had no clue on what these poor neighborhoods were actually like. Some of them are like war zones. Did that give them privelage to talk about it? I would rather someone who has actually gone to them and spends time there than an outsider speak on them.

[IronTiger]

OK, I'm pretty sure this is going nowhere. Like your "Remove the Pierce Elevated at any cost" rants, you downplay real causes of what created the problem, you ignore the fact that when the problem was already attempted to fix didn't work, you championed proposed government "re-integration" policies even though previous efforts have been disastrous and worsened the problem, and accused someone of being a racist when they pointed out some obvious flaws of the proposed program.

 

There is no reason to waste my time to someone who continues to scream nonsense that redlining was the sole reason of the race riots and believes some government programs will make everything better.

[Slick Vik]

OK, I'm pretty sure this is going nowhere. Like your "Remove the Pierce Elevated at any cost" rants, you downplay real causes of what created the problem, you ignore the fact that when the problem was already attempted to fix didn't work, you championed proposed government "re-integration" policies even though previous efforts have been disastrous and worsened the problem, and accused someone of being a racist when they pointed out some obvious flaws of the proposed program.

 

There is no reason to waste my time to someone who continues to scream nonsense that redlining was the sole reason of the race riots and believes some government programs will make everything better.

 

Listen to the show, read the report, and get back to me. It's very easy to comment without having the same level of research and knowledge of the subject.

[IronTiger]

It's very easy to comment without having the same level of research and knowledge of the subject.

Good advice, maybe you should try it yourself sometime.

-

Clearly by listening to one radio show, you become an expert on the subject. We all bow down to your supreme knowledge.

[august948]

Finally, I'm not calling you a racist, but you seem rather indifferent to the lasting result of redlining. It has created areas where you are trapped, and nearly impossible to escape. South side Chicago and areas like it in every city in the country. Like the report says I'm my sure if you're really familiar with what's actually going on in these areas. I know. I go to neighborhoods every day you wouldn't dare step in, for various reasons: eating, haircuts, basketball, boxing. And there's a different reality there. Kids are forced to join gangs. If they don't they are brutally beaten and sometimes die. If they leave they die. One of my friends was killed for leaving a gang. Another has a hit on him for leaving one. People don't even know if they'll make it home from school safely. This is a reality you'll never understand, and the fact that it was created by greater powers and hasn't been reversed except for a few short years of good work by George Romney is sad and pathetic.

 

Which neighborhoods, specifically, are you visiting and why do you tink that redlining that happened years ago and has been illegal for a long time is trapping everyone who lives in them?

 

[Slick Vik]

Which neighborhoods, specifically, are you visiting and why do you tink that redlining that happened years ago and has been illegal for a long time is trapping everyone who lives in them?

 

 

Third ward, fifth ward, gulfton.

 

The point is that reintegration, reversing of the segregation was blocked by Nixon and thus we have de facto segregation.

Good advice, maybe you should try it yourself sometime.

-

Clearly by listening to one radio show, you become an expert on the subject. We all bow down to your supreme knowledge.

 

I've read through much of the commission's report as well. It's good stuff.

[august948]

Third ward, fifth ward, gulfton.

 

The point is that reintegration, reversing of the segregation was blocked by Nixon and thus we have de facto segregation.

 

I've read through much of the commission's report as well. It's good stuff.

 

So you were saying, then, that everyone who lives in the Third and Fifth Wards and the Gulfton area are trapped?  Or was that just hyperbole?

 

And without practices of the past, like redlining, there would be no poor neighborhoods, no crime ridden areas, no white flight?

 

[Slick Vik]

So you were saying, then, that everyone who lives in the Third and Fifth Wards and the Gulfton area are trapped?  Or was that just hyperbole?

 

And without practices of the past, like redlining, there would be no poor neighborhoods, no crime ridden areas, no white flight?

 

 

I would say most of them are.

 

There would not be this level of segregation and stark difference between neighborhoods. They were much more diverse before the practice started. I don't think there would have been white flight either without the government giving only white people loans.

[IronTiger]

I would say most of them are.

 

There would not be this level of segregation and stark difference between neighborhoods. They were much more diverse before the practice started.

 

Oh, so the crowded slum immigrant neighborhoods in the east never existed. I've been taught a lie!

[august948]

I would say most of them are.

 

There would not be this level of segregation and stark difference between neighborhoods. They were much more diverse before the practice started. I don't think there would have been white flight either without the government giving only white people loans.

 

Redlining was horrible public policy, but folks with money ususally seek to live away from those without it, regardless of race.  For instance, did you grow up in these neighborhoods or did your parents choose to live out in the suburbs where the schools were better and the incomes higher?

 

[Ross]

I would say most of them are.

There would not be this level of segregation and stark difference between neighborhoods. They were much more diverse before the practice started. I don't think there would have been white flight either without the government giving only white people loans.

You must not be aware that Gulfton was the in place to live in the early 80's, and was home to a bunch of young professionals. It went downhill after the bust of the mid 80's. Redlining was never a factor in the growth of the poor there.

[IronTiger]

You must not be aware that Gulfton was the in place to live in the early 80's, and was home to a bunch of young professionals. It went downhill after the bust of the mid 80's. Redlining was never a factor in the growth of the poor there.

 

Yup. I was going to say that the "redlining is the cause of woes" theory may have worked in the 1960s but then doesn't work for neighborhoods that were built since and subsequently deteriorated.

 

This is all the more hilariously sad when I listed other legitimate causes of why neighborhoods stay poor and you brushed them off for a reason that didn't actually exist in that case. Classy.

 

Also, your "white flight started in the 1930s" is kind of right, kind of wrong. The "white flight" was the rich (who happened to be white) moving out of the city because cities were polluted, dirty, and full of crime (that's how things were). Streetcars and other rail-based systems enabled this.

 

Even by your own words, then, you affirm that your beloved streetcars enabled white flight, which you also accused your hated freeways of doing. 

[august948]

I would say most of them are.

 

There would not be this level of segregation and stark difference between neighborhoods. They were much more diverse before the practice started. I don't think there would have been white flight either without the government giving only white people loans.

 

And they are trapped by redlining or other discriminatory practices?  Or are they trapped by their own bad choices (like many people are, not just the poor or minorities)?

[Slick Vik]

And they are trapped by redlining or other discriminatory practices? Or are they trapped by their own bad choices (like many people are, not just the poor or minorities)?

They are trapped because of the situation they are in. When you're worried about life and death every day then it's a different life.

[Slick Vik]

Yup. I was going to say that the "redlining is the cause of woes" theory may have worked in the 1960s but then doesn't work for neighborhoods that were built since and subsequently deteriorated.

This is all the more hilariously sad when I listed other legitimate causes of why neighborhoods stay poor and you brushed them off for a reason that didn't actually exist in that case. Classy.

Also, your "white flight started in the 1930s" is kind of right, kind of wrong. The "white flight" was the rich (who happened to be white) moving out of the city because cities were polluted, dirty, and full of crime (that's how things were). Streetcars and other rail-based systems enabled this.

Even by your own words, then, you affirm that your beloved streetcars enabled white flight, which you also accused your hated freeways of doing.

Streetcars sent people a short distance away, not the all out sprawl that came later.

[Slick Vik]

Oh, so the crowded slum immigrant neighborhoods in the east never existed. I've been taught a lie!

As the commission report states none of those immigrant neighborhoods were as segregated as neighborhoods after redlining. NONE

[IronTiger]

Picking and choosing your arguments again, I see:

 

They are trapped because of the situation they are in.

I agree. The "Plantation" is a destructive lifestyle.

 

As the commission report states none of those immigrant neighborhoods were as segregated as neighborhoods after redlining. NONE

Once again, hinging your entire argument on a flawed report is really dangerous. This is the same reason why using the Bible as a defense in debates is a bad idea, even if you believe in your heart of hearts that it's 100% true. Yes, I know you're scoffing: "The Bible was mistranslated by monks over centuries, and thus flawed data. This right here is REAL FACTS WITHOUT ANYTHING WRONG!"

 

Streetcars sent people a short distance away, not the all out sprawl that came later.

Sure they did. We don't see as Montrose and the Heights as suburbs today because the city engulfed them and spread out further. But there's a reason why they were called streetcar suburbs, and the large houses that still remain are a testament to the fact. However, even after pointing your old condemnations of white flight (thus, sprawl) you exonerate streetcars for all wrongdoing.

Moreover, you ignored the "neighborhoods built after the 1930s" flaw that punches a pretty large hole in your theory.

[Slick Vik]

Picking and choosing your arguments again, I see:

I agree. The "Plantation" is a destructive lifestyle.

Once again, hinging your entire argument on a flawed report is really dangerous. This is the same reason why using the Bible as a defense in debates is a bad idea, even if you believe in your heart of hearts that it's 100% true. Yes, I know you're scoffing: "The Bible was mistranslated by monks over centuries, and thus flawed data. This right here is REAL FACTS WITHOUT ANYTHING WRONG!"

Sure they did. We don't see as Montrose and the Heights as suburbs today because the city engulfed them and spread out further. But there's a reason why they were called streetcar suburbs, and the large houses that still remain are a testament to the fact. However, even after pointing your old condemnations of white flight (thus, sprawl) you exonerate streetcars for all wrongdoing.

Moreover, you ignored the "neighborhoods built after the 1930s" flaw that punches a pretty large hole in your theory.

You basically endorse redlining by saying reintegration efforts are pointless. Also, neighborhoods built in the redline areas, even after 1930, were held to the same standards.

 

Yes and I trust a 600 page report over your unsubstantiated opinions. You haven't listened to the show or read the report.

 

And you joking comparing living in the hood to living on a plantation is a disgusting and blatantly racist remark.

[IronTiger]

You basically endorse redlining by saying reintegration efforts are pointless

Wow, you not only missed my point but you managed to drastically oversimplify it: "You basically endorse genocide by saying U.S. should not enter/pull out of Country X" would be another drastic oversimplification.

I did read the transcript, and I found that the part at the beginning was a bit irrelevant to the point they were trying to make. Some people will charge differently based on race. I could go to a heavily Hispanic neighborhood and end up paying more for a taco than other people. Call the government! Force non-Hispanics to move in! I'm being discriminated against!

And you joking comparing living in the hood to living on a plantation is a disgusting and blatantly racist remark.

No, you missed the point. Again. The "Plantation" is a term used in a book on how the welfare system keeps people poor, which was written by an African-American woman who managed to get OUT of welfare and wrote about WHY it is hard to get out. This term is also used on another WOT topic on HAIF which you did participate in. I'm guessing it flew over your head and you misinterpreted it as a racist remark.

[brijonmang]

I'm just in here to say that I am enjoying reading this thread.  Carry on.

[Slick Vik]

Wow, you not only missed my point but you managed to drastically oversimplify it: "You basically endorse genocide by saying U.S. should not enter/pull out of Country X" would be another drastic oversimplification.

I did read the transcript, and I found that the part at the beginning was a bit irrelevant to the point they were trying to make. Some people will charge differently based on race. I could go to a heavily Hispanic neighborhood and end up paying more for a taco than other people. Call the government! Force non-Hispanics to move in! I'm being discriminated against!

No, you missed the point. Again. The "Plantation" is a term used in a book on how the welfare system keeps people poor, which was written by an African-American woman who managed to get OUT of welfare and wrote about WHY it is hard to get out. This term is also used on another WOT topic on HAIF which you did participate in. I'm guessing it flew over your head and you misinterpreted it as a racist remark.

 

I think the show made sense. It began with talking about schools, and went into redlining. Also, for the record, I've never been charged more for a taco in a hispanic neighborhood. And I have been to a lot of taco trucks.

 

I didn't oversimplify anything, you said reintegration efforts were pointless. In fact, in this thread, I'm the only person who is even pushing for them. But god forbid we bring back the blacks we got away from back in to our neighborhoods! Who wants to be around darker peoples?!

 

You can choose to use plantation in a particular context if you want, but to me it as a racist connotation and especially in the way that you said it. Too late to cover it up now.

[Slick Vik]

After he became president, “Nixon, with an eye toward his suburban constituency, kept

the issue of open housing away from the White House.” When a White House task force

on low income housing recommended linking federal aid to suburban racial integration,

Nixon wrote: “I am absolutely opposed to this. Knock it in the head now.”

 

http://www.prrac.org/pdf/RoismanHistoryExcerpt.pdf

[Slick Vik]

http://books.google.com/books?id=ip09QJaFaiQC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=george+romney+warren+michigan&source=bl&ots=qU8e6IH6IY&sig=6BsdTqqEXJkESFkfIqaejUJeWwk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eICfUoSgNcab2QWb24DoAQ&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=george%20romney%20warren%20michigan&f=false

 

 

[Slick Vik]

Local authorities, with federal encouragement and consent, segregated public housing and then, as whites left the projects for all-white suburbs, placed new projects only in black neighborhoods to ensure continued segregation. Federal urban-renewal funds were used to bulldoze black neighborhoods to make space available for white residential and business expansion; resulting displacements further overcrowded the ghettos. Suburbs adopted exclusionary zoning laws requiring large lot sizes and banning multiunit developments, often with the barely disguised purpose of ensuring that no African Americans could afford to become neighbors.

 

Federal and local officials in the 1950s and 1960s routed highways through black communities to force residents to move to ghettos farther from white residences and businesses. The executive director of the American Association of State Highway Officials, himself deeply involved in the congressional design of the program, later acknowledged that “some city officials expressed the view in the mid-1950s that the urban interstates would give them a good opportunity to get rid of the local ‘______town.’”

 

http://prospect.org/article/cost-living-apart

[Slick Vik]

In Michigan, the city of Hamtramck was typical. An overwhelmingly Polish American enclave surrounded by Detroit, Hamtramck had a small number of black residents, for whom the city’s 1959 master plan intended a “program of population loss.” With federal funds, the city began in 1962 to demolish its black residential neighborhoods to create vacant land for a Chrysler plant expansion. Federal funds were next used to raze more (mostly black) homes for construction of an expressway to serve the plant. No replacement housing was provided, and because white neighborhoods were closed to them, the displaced blacks were forced deeper into Detroit’s ghettos. A federal appeals court concluded that HUD officials “must have known of the discriminatory practices which pervaded the private [Hamtramck] housing market and the indications of overt prejudice among some of the persons involved in carrying out the urban renewal projects of the City.”

[Slick Vik]

At his Senate confirmation hearing to be secretary of housing and urban development, Romney denounced the Federal Housing Administration, saying that it has “built a high-income white noose basically around these inner cities, and the poor and disadvantaged, both black and white, are pretty much left in the inner city.”

[IronTiger]

I didn't oversimplify anything, you said reintegration efforts were pointless.

 

You didn't oversimply anything? Don't lie to yourself. Tell me where I said that reintegration efforts were pointless.

 

At his Senate confirmation hearing to be secretary of housing and urban development, Romney denounced the Federal Housing Administration, saying that it has “built a high-income white noose basically around these inner cities, and the poor and disadvantaged, both black and white, are pretty much left in the inner city.”

Believe it or not, everyone (including minorities) fled cities if they had money. That's because of the reasons I had listed above. Some people don't just understand that, much like Coleman Young.

 

In fact, in this thread, I'm the only person who is even pushing for them. But god forbid we bring back the blacks we got away from back in to our neighborhoods! Who wants to be around darker peoples?!

In ALL suburbs, there's a small percentage of minorities. Anyone can move anywhere if they can afford it. And they do. Unless, of course, you're implying that all black people are poor, of which the problem is on you.

The main reason people stay in the "ghetto", like much of Detroit, is that they can't afford to. Higher taxes compound that, even though they'll never see a cent of it in terms of taxes.

 

Local authorities, with federal encouragement and consent, segregated public housing and [snip]

Oh wow, citing from a far-left magazine! That really backs up your argument.   

 

You can choose to use plantation in a particular context if you want, but to me it as a racist connotation and especially in the way that you said it. Too late to cover it up now.

I'm not covering it up, I'm using fairly common vernacular (again, see elsewhere on HAIF) which your liberal goggles interpreted as racist. I can't help it if you don't understand me.

 

 

Again, even if redlining was the cause of social unrest and demographic shifts in the 1960s, it doesn't really hold up today. Remember what we said about post-1960s deteriorated neighborhoods? That was ignored, as it blew a massive hole in your theory. Instead of trying to fight it, you went straight for the "If all else fails, accuse the other party of being racist" card because you had no other choice.

 

Man, they must have loved you back when you were on the debate team.