White Flight When Did It Start

[Jeebus]

I move here" Birnam Wood" in March 2006. I would say its 70% White, 15% American African, 15% Hispanic." margin of error about +/ - 5%"

No Asians/Middle Easterns in your hood? I think the term "white flight" has just become a coined term from a time before political correctness. It would defeat the purpose of renaming the term to "middle-class flight" if you're still only measuring the percentage of white people in a neighborhood.

If you wanted to be truely politically correct, AND focus your energy on something constructive, you would measure white flight by income bracket - and not worry about changing a phrase used in college text-books & spoken by most Americans.

I know the purpose of this thread was to prove/disprove whether Houston-proper neighborhoods were begining to see a surge of white-flight to Spring & Katy again, but its starting to look like a search for the most "clan" freindly neighborhood in the Houston metro area.

[hbcu]

When did white flight start happening in droves? Especially on the south side? (I do know Galena Park's whites vanished, North Forest's moved away, Aldine, etc.) but the South side is perplexing

Who remembers South Park when it was white? Once the main area off of 610 and MLK (S. Park Blvd.) change, did most whites move south on S. Park Blvd. near Selinksy as I notice the homes further south were made of brick as you went further down the street...

as I kid, I remember going to my uncle's house off of Mykawa and Bellfort near Hartman MS...now, it's 80% hispanic and all the businesses are torn down (Yum Yum Pit), Rice

When did whites leave Hiram Clarke? Why?

I grew up near Hiram Clarke but on the FB County Side off 2234 and Blue Ridge...Willowridge and other schools where white but time I got into the system in the 80s, most vanished.....we had grocery stores, shoe stores, etc. in my area then

Same with Fondren but there are still some left as they'll never get what they paid for in homes...

My question again is why did some leave especially now when those areas are centrally located to the loop and haven't changed much in some areas?

The problem with white flight is that there were alot of areas built overnight and left abandoned in a matter of years.....who allowed apartments to be built next to dream homes in some of those areas?

Some left bigger homes for smaller homes in Sugar Land also..

[TheNiche]

I'd say that it started within a few years after the close of World War Two, during a period of rapid demographic transition from rural areas to cities (among all races), increasing use of private automobiles and buses, and corresponding low-density suburban growth. Whether it had been defined by race or income, the effect probably would've been the same. New money likes new houses.

[devonhart]

I lived across the bayou from Madison High School, we moved to Willow Meadows in 1966. I remember African American families were just starting to move into the neighborhood at that time. We didn't move because of it, but I do remember the "worried" talk among the adults about home values. We had 3 families we still visited in Pamela Heights for a few more years, but all of them had moved by the 70s.

[west20th]

I can't state too much concerning segregation and white flight in Houston since I didn't get here until '84. I can tell you Houston was not unique and remains a less segregated city now and in the past when compared to where I grew up, Cleveland Oh. Cleveland, then and now, was roughly 50% white and 50% black however I rarely saw any non-white folks at all. Here is a story to illustrate:

Picture it Sandusky, Oh., Spring 1969. An all-white school and an all-black school were in line at the "Blue Streak" while at a late year field trip to Cedar Point. Most likely these two groups grew up within a mile of each other yet they were looking at each other like they were from another planet. Every time I think back to that it strikes me as being such an odd circumstance.

[IHB2]

the S&L crash + oil crash crash of the 80s that killed Houston worse than anywhere else was the primary driver of the ethnic/racial makeover of all of southwest Houston. that's what changed Gulfton from yuppie apartment heaven to a barrio, filled every apartment complex followed by single family housing in Sharpstown, S. Post Oak/Hiram Clark, Westbury, Fondren/Fondren Southwest with primarily African Americans. Latinos, Asians, etc followed in later years, really picking up in the 90s.

the real estate collapse made our most recent crash in 2008 look like a minor problem in comparison. the feds sold foreclosed properties to speculators for pennies on the dollar, they in turn sold to landlords that turned the properties into HUD housing or poorly maintained, low rent no questions asked complexes. that opened the door to folks from the wards getting out of those blighted areas into much newer, nicer housing.

once Houston recovered from the 80s whites did not move back into these formerly white neighborhoods. that seems to be changing now in select areas like Westbury.

[little frau]

I had an aunt and uncle who moved into a house on Anzio, right off South Park before Gulfgate Center was built. When Palm Center opened, my aunt loved shopping there at the Lewis and Coker grocery store. Theirs was a beautiful neighborhood with neat homes and perfect yards. We visited them many times and I don't recall seeing many of their neighbors but I believe it's safe to say the area was all white.

My aunt died in the early 70s, still living in that house. Uncle's health began to fail and he moved in with one of their kids and the house was sold. I've often thought about driving over there to see the place but have just not gotten around to it.

And, as you mention Hiram Clark, we moved into Pamela Heights in 1957, Knotty Oaks Trail was the last street at that time. This was way before Brentwood was built. There were no schools near. The few of us kids in the neighborhood were bused to Cullen Junior High, then to the new Johnston Junior High. For high school, we rode the bus into San Jacinto High School (HCC now) until Westbury was built. We had friends on Trail Lake who lived there from the 50s on into the early 90s but they did say all their friends were gone by the 80s, having moved up and out. My family moved from there in the mid 60s but not due to white flight. The neighborhood was still all white when we moved out of state.

I did drive out to Pamela Heights several years ago. I'll never go out there again. Our house looked so small, much smaller than I remember as a young person. And the whole area is run down. Don't know why exactly because those houses were not expensive when new but they weren't shacks either. All were brick, at least 3 bedroom and on decent sized lots.

One thing sticks out in my memory. I used to do a lot of baby sitting in the neighborhood and so was able to see inside a good number of the homes in PH. Only a very few of the fancier houses had carpet. The cheaper ones had hardwood floors. Maybe all were sold with hardwood I don't know. Could be that the higher wage earners had carpet installed themselves. Remember, carpet was quite expensive in the 50s and wood was the low cost option.

[cowboybud]

One thing sticks out in my memory. I used to do a lot of baby sitting in the neighborhood and so was able to see inside a good number of the homes in PH. Only a very few of the fancier houses had carpet. The cheaper ones had hardwood floors. Maybe all were sold with hardwood I don't know. Could be that the higher wage earners had carpet installed themselves. Remember, carpet was quite expensive in the 50s and wood was the low cost option.

My grandmother's old house in the Spring Branch area (built around 1950) had hardwood floors. I thought it was odd.

[Blade Runner]

And yet now, people pay out the nose for hardwood flooring. Go figure...

[Slick Vik]

It really started after the Great Depression. So in the early to mid '30s, the federal government realized that home ownership was going to be a major way to build and fortify the middle class. So the Roosevelt administration starts to back loans. And so you only had to put down 20%. And this is when the practice of redlining actually began. The federal government was the one who introduced redlining.

It was not just about whether a neighborhood was black or not, but whether that neighborhood was integrated, and the government wanted to provide a disincentive to live in an integrated neighborhood. So if you were a white homeowner who didn't mind living in an integrated neighborhood, you could not get a loan. And if you owned a home in an integrated neighborhood, you knew that you could not resell your home to other white folks, so you had to sell your home to black people and get the hell-- oops, excuse me-- get the heck out of there. Because your property values were absolutely going to go down. It had nothing to do with whether the black people in your neighborhood could afford to pay their mortgage

Right, exactly, not keeping their properties up. It was about the fact that the government was deeming these neighborhoods as less valuable. And so your property values were going to go down because the government had decided that black and integrated neighborhoods were automatically less valuable.

And what ultimately happens, of course, between 1934 and 1964, 98% of the home loans that are insured by the federal government go to white Americans, building up the white middle class by allowing them to get home ownership. And black Americans are largely left out of that process. And, if there's one thing that's amazing about all of this, is how efficient the federal government was in creating segregation.

Around 1930, most black Americans in Northern cities are living in neighborhoods that are about 30% black. By the '60s, the neighborhoods of African Americans in the industrial Northeast are 74% percent black and higher.

No other racial or ethnic group has ever been that segregated. Even when you had large groups of immigrants coming from Ireland or Poland or Italy, even in places where they had Little Italys and things like that. So by 1960, cities have largely been abandoned by white Americans, you have massive public housing projects, where nearly everyone in there is black and poor, and even if you're middle class and black, you can't move out of those neighborhoods. You're still forced to live in those very dead neighborhoods.
 

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/512/house-rules

 

[Slick Vik]

600+ views but not a single response? This is one of the most fascinating things I've ever come across. Shameful and sad but explains why neighborhoods are so segregated to this day.

[LTAWACS]

I was under the impression that the government back then realized that home ownership would keep people "calm" or less prone to protest or revolt. So Fannie Mae, Freddy Mac, etc were born.

[Slick Vik]

I was under the impression that the government back then realized that home ownership would keep people "calm" or less prone to protest or revolt. So Fannie Mae, Freddy Mac, etc were born.

 

The problem is loans weren't available to non whites so that is a big part of the race riots of the late 60's

[IronTiger]

The problem is loans weren't available to non whites so that is a big part of the race riots of the late 60's

Gee, is that what they teach in schools these days? The Detroit riots, specifically, were started when the police raided an unlicensed bar, and it radiated out from there. Eventually mob mentality takes over, and you have people of all races standing at their homes and businesses with guns to protect themselves and their property. Same thing happened with the Koreans in the LA riots in the early 1990s. 

 

As for Detroit, the media was the first to call it to a race riot, deliberately pitting people against each other (they STILL do that type of thing, see Trayvon Martin case). With things like bussing kids across town to go to schools, and the elected Coleman Young demonizing anyone who wasn't black.

 

But of course, that's not what really happened. The cause for the race riots and subsequent outflow of people from Detroit were solely due to the advents of freeways (boo! hiss!).  

[Ross]

The problem is loans weren't available to non whites so that is a big part of the race riots of the late 60's

That's a statement that's not rooted in reality. I've never seen a reputable reference that mentioned redlining as a contributing factor to race riots.

[samagon]

The original topic is actually quite fascinating and a self fulfilling prophecy. It was a different time and place. Fears were that neighborhoods of mixed color would drop in price. They fulfilled that prophecy by not lending to anyone that wanted to buy houses in those neighborhoods, and (shocker) the values dropped.

 

Speaking of shock and race, I was quite shocked on Wednesday when I went to Jury Duty and when I filled out that slip of paper it explained that filling in my race was a state law. Now why would that be? Why is the government insistent upon caring about what I say my race is? I very happily ignored that box, and got a stern warning from the clerk that the judge might not find it amusing. I wasn't trying to make a joke.

[Slick Vik]

Gee, is that what they teach in schools these days? The Detroit riots, specifically, were started when the police raided an unlicensed bar, and it radiated out from there. Eventually mob mentality takes over, and you have people of all races standing at their homes and businesses with guns to protect themselves and their property. Same thing happened with the Koreans in the LA riots in the early 1990s. 

 

As for Detroit, the media was the first to call it to a race riot, deliberately pitting people against each other (they STILL do that type of thing, see Trayvon Martin case). With things like bussing kids across town to go to schools, and the elected Coleman Young demonizing anyone who wasn't black.

 

But of course, that's not what really happened. The cause for the race riots and subsequent outflow of people from Detroit were solely due to the advents of freeways (boo! hiss!).  

 

President Johnson appointed a commission known as the Kerner Commission, Republicans and Democrats, to look into the riots, which were freaking out the entire country-- no surprise. In debates, some members of Congress argued that civil rights legislation, including a housing law, would reward and encourage rioting. The Kerner Commission's report came out while Congress was debating a fair housing bill for the third time, after it had failed to pass twice before.

 

The report was published as a paperback book-- I'm looking down at a copy right now-- and it's got three questions emblazoned on the front. These are the questions President Johnson had publicly asked the commission to address.

What happened? Why did it happen? What can be done?

 

Nikole Hannah

It sold something like two million copies when it first came out, so Americans were actually really interested--

 

Nancy Updike

That's a bestseller.

 

Nikole Hannah

--in this report. It was definitely a bestseller, and back then it was certainly a bestseller. But you have to understand, there had been four years of rioting in cities all across the country. And so I think many Americans were anxious to read an assessment of why this was.

 

Nancy Updike

The report is more than 600 pages, but its conclusion was simple, and has been famously and repeatedly quoted since. Quote, "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black and one white, separate and unequal." The commissioners had spent months going to the cities, looking at data, interviewing people, residents, police, politicians, and they concluded that there was one central driving force behind the riots. This is Nikole quoting from the book. She's got her own copy.

 

Nikole Hannah

"Segregation and poverty have created, in the racial ghetto, a destructive environment totally unknown to most white Americans. What white Americans have never fully understood, but what the Negro can never forget, is that white society is deeply implicated in the ghetto. White institutions created it, white institutions maintain it, and white society condones it."

 

Nikole Hannah

So I think people tend to think that generally people live like they do. And I think that they took great pains to say, we went into these communities--

 

Nancy Updike

We the commission.

 

Nikole Hannah

Exactly, we the Kerner commission. We're like you. You know, we're a largely white male group, and we went into those communities, and--

 

Nancy Updike

They're not living like us.

 

Nikole Hannah

--we found something-- yeah-- that we did not imagine.

 

[Slick Vik]

That's a statement that's not rooted in reality. I've never seen a reputable reference that mentioned redlining as a contributing factor to race riots.

 

Except the 600 page report written by the Kerner Commission

[luciaphile]

Race is no doubt an endlessly interesting lens, but for some of us the takeaway on this subject is, how very different an instrument a mortgage once was, and vastly less consequential; and how wholly artificial this supposed American "triumph of the city." As usual, thanks, FDR. 

[IronTiger]

Except the 600 page report written by the Kerner Commission

 

As I expected, your "retort" was nothing more than a copied and pasted chunk from the SAME INTERVIEW YOU ORIGINALLY POSTED IN THE FIRST POST. The Kerner Commission had all sorts of flaws, and these "commission reports" are often flawed anyway. The 9/11 Commission Report, likewise took a bunch of criticism and had flaws in it as well. Do you agree with the latter?

[Slick Vik]

As I expected, your "retort" was nothing more than a copied and pasted chunk from the SAME INTERVIEW YOU ORIGINALLY POSTED IN THE FIRST POST. The Kerner Commission had all sorts of flaws, and these "commission reports" are often flawed anyway. The 9/11 Commission Report, likewise took a bunch of criticism and had flaws in it as well. Do you agree with the latter?

 

Yes, from someone who has spent years researching the subject, gone into national archives. Very easy for you to simply discredit. Here's some more information for you by the way.  

 

Nancy Updike

 

Around 1930, most black Americans in Northern cities are living in neighborhoods that are about 30% black. By the '60s, the neighborhoods of African Americans in the industrial Northeast are 74% percent black and higher.

 

Nikole Hannah

No other racial or ethnic group has ever been that segregated. Even when you had large groups of immigrants coming from Ireland or Poland or Italy, even in places where they had Little Italys and things like that. So by 1960, cities have largely been abandoned by white Americans, you have massive public housing projects, where nearly everyone in there is black and poor, and even if you're middle class and black, you can't move out of those neighborhoods. You're still forced to live in those very dead neighborhoods.

 

[IronTiger]

Here's some more information that I copied and pasted from the same article I already mentioned twice.

 

Fixed it for ya. 

 

By the way, you never answered my question. Is the 9/11 Commission Report also a true, unadulterated report of what really happened? If no, then there's going to be obvious errors in your Kerner Commission as well which you refuse to address. If yes, then you're perhaps too trusting of information.

[Slick Vik]

 

Fixed it for ya. 

 

By the way, you never answered my question. Is the 9/11 Commission Report also a true, unadulterated report of what really happened? If no, then there's going to be obvious errors in your Kerner Commission as well which you refuse to address. If yes, then you're perhaps too trusting of information.

 

 

The two reports are totally different. Here's a quote from former president nixon as well.

 

In a private memo to his advisers, Nixon wrote, quote, "Even if I should become convinced, and I don't think it would be possible to convince me, that forced integration of education and housing was in the best interests of blacks and not too detrimental to whites, I could not possibly support it in good conscience."

[IronTiger]

Arguably, while we're on the subject, I would say that it was LBJ that did the most damage with his "Great Society" programs. Here's a quote for you that he said on record: "I'll have those n****** voting Democratic for the next 200 years." He was in office from 1963 to 1968. Hey, guess when the race riots happened? That's right, during LBJ's tenure.

 

The two reports are totally different.

You're evading the question, as you desperately want to avoid facing the fact, nay, even possibility that your prized report is wrong.

[Slick Vik]

Arguably, while we're on the subject, I would say that it was LBJ that did the most damage with his "Great Society" programs. Here's a quote for you that he said on record: "I'll have those n****** voting Democratic for the next 200 years." He was in office from 1963 to 1968. Hey, guess when the race riots happened? That's right, during LBJ's tenure.

 

You're evading the question, as you desperately want to avoid facing the fact, nay, even possibility that your prized report is wrong.

 

Why don't you listen to the show, and get back to me? And think through the consequences of the actions, to this day redlining have had, because of the policy, and the complete lack of reintegration policy since George Romney. Heck even the separation of College Station and Bryan are great evidence of segregation.

 

Also, LBJ passed a lot of civil rights legislation, including the fair housing act, which tried to reverse segregationist policies.

 

And your analogy is off base. I've actually read through some of this report, have you?

[IronTiger]

Heck even the separation of College Station and Bryan are great evidence of segregation.

No, they're really not. They're separate cities, much like Dallas and Fort Worth (except on a far smaller scale). Bryan tended to get more of the short end of the stick, but various city policies kept Bryan down, leading to College Station being a more favorable place for new residents to live. Bryan's total population also never decreased, it increased, albeit slowly. College Station is not some overgrown suburb: as the university was out in the middle of nowhere and miles away from Bryan, it sprung up to provide commercial services and residences for those who lived and worked at A&M.

 

Also, "white flight" didn't start until after desegregation was started. While it was a good and noble effort, many government efforts at that time (i.e. bussing kids across town) only made the problem worse instead. It's what they say about government. Who knows what further "integration" they wanted to try.

 

 

[Slick Vik]

No, they're really not. They're separate cities, much like Dallas and Fort Worth (except on a far smaller scale). Bryan tended to get more of the short end of the stick, but various city policies kept Bryan down, leading to College Station being a more favorable place for new residents to live. Bryan's total population also never decreased, it increased, albeit slowly. College Station is not some overgrown suburb: as the university was out in the middle of nowhere and miles away from Bryan, it sprung up to provide commercial services and residences for those who lived and worked at A&M.

Also, "white flight" didn't start until after desegregation was started. While it was a good and noble effort, many government efforts at that time (i.e. bussing kids across town) only made the problem worse instead. It's what they say about government. Who knows what further "integration" they wanted to try.

White flight didn't start until the late 60's? That's false. It started with redlining, which basically encouraged white flight, since even if you were white in certain (inner city) neighborhoods, you were not (or no longer) eligible for a loan, and never would be, so your best bet was to sell it to a black person for whatever you could get and leave.

Also, desegregation was a noble and righteous thing to do. George Romney actually forced cities that accepted federal dollars to reintegrate. Once Nixon found out he fired him and changed the wording of the fair housing act. And HUD has had little power since.

I find it alarming that you think the entity that helped segregate America most should make no effort to desegregate. Do you like Nixon not want to make the whites uncomfortable?

[IronTiger]

White flight didn't start until the late 60's? That's false. It started with redlining, which basically encouraged white flight, since even if you were white in certain (inner city) neighborhoods, you were not (or no longer) eligible for a loan, and never would be, so your best bet was to sell it to a black person for whatever you could get and leave.

 

So, why didn't we see things like race riots in the 1930s like in the 1960s?

 

Also, desegregation was a noble and righteous thing to do. George Romney actually forced cities that accepted federal dollars to reintegrate. Once Nixon found out he fired him and changed the wording of the fair housing act. And HUD has had little power since.

 

Didn't say that desegregation was wrong, it's just that the government had no idea how to handle it.

I find it alarming that you think the entity that helped segregate America most should make no effort to desegregate. Do you like Nixon not want to make the whites uncomfortable?

Ah, playing the old "You must be a RACIST!" card that white liberals play when they run out of arguments. The de-segregation policies of the 1960s did do a lot of good: I'm glad that people of all races have the same opprotunities to use facilities that were limited if not right prohibited years ago...but in many ways, they made the problem worse by widening the gap. And how exactly is HUD going to "fix" the problem now? More social engineering and regulation? More public housing projects?

[IronTiger]

Actually, your answer already came with the Community Reinvestment Act which sought to reverse the redlining policies in several aspects. Instead, they not only failed to fix the problem but ended up being the cause of a major recession. Go go government policies! 

[Slick Vik]

So, why didn't we see things like race riots in the 1930s like in the 1960s?

Didn't say that desegregation was wrong, it's just that the government had no idea how to handle it.

Ah, playing the old "You must be a RACIST!" card that white liberals play when they run out of arguments. The de-segregation policies of the 1960s did do a lot of good: I'm glad that people of all races have the same opprotunities to use facilities that were limited if not right prohibited years ago...but in many ways, they made the problem worse by widening the gap. And how exactly is HUD going to "fix" the problem now? More social engineering and regulation? More public housing projects?

1. Tensions boil. Your hypothesis that one incident triggered riots is hilarious and sad.

2. How you think desegregation was being handled and what actually took place are two separate things.

3. Widening the gap? A lot of widening was done by the segregationist redlining policies which created ghettos and as a result public housing projects. HUD can fix the problem once it gets greater powers, which hopefully will happen this year or next. Basically, if any city takes federal money for anything, it also has to do something to reintegrate as well. For example, every apartment tower should require a percentage of affordable units. Every freeway expansion should be required to build community centers and plant trees in low income areas. If you make a mess, make some effort to fix it.

Finally, I'm not calling you a racist, but you seem rather indifferent to the lasting result of redlining. It has created areas where you are trapped, and nearly impossible to escape. South side Chicago and areas like it in every city in the country. Like the report says I'm my sure if you're really familiar with what's actually going on in these areas. I know. I go to neighborhoods every day you wouldn't dare step in, for various reasons: eating, haircuts, basketball, boxing. And there's a different reality there. Kids are forced to join gangs. If they don't they are brutally beaten and sometimes die. If they leave they die. One of my friends was killed for leaving a gang. Another has a hit on him for leaving one. People don't even know if they'll make it home from school safely. This is a reality you'll never understand, and the fact that it was created by greater powers and hasn't been reversed except for a few short years of good work by George Romney is sad and pathetic.