Ball Park Place

[ricco67]

I think it won't truly develop that well unless other development "crawls" in that direction or a gutzy developer takes a chance. I try to support the businesses that are in that area when I can whether there is a game or not.

[T 2 THA C]

So no chances of any major developments on this site?

[RedScare]

Development will eventually come to this site, as well as the MMP area. However, land prices jumped when MMP opened, and never really came back to reality. But, if you consider that Harris County is spending hundreds of millions of dollars on its courthouse complex 3 blocks to the west, and the new park, apartment tower and office tower going up 2 blocks to the south, and possibly a new soccer stadium going up 2 blocks to the east, there will lots of eyeballs looking at those empty lots, trying to figure out how to make a buck there. And, much as some complain, available land in downtown IS becoming more scarce. In the last 10 years, more than 40 blocks of downtown have been redeveloped. At a certain point, someone will do something, and more will follow.

My belief is that offices and other legal support facilities will crowd around the courthouse complex, while residential and entertainment will fill in from the south. Exactly when that happens probably depends on the economic climate remaining good. A slowdown, even a small one, kills off a lot of these projects, such as Ballpark Place itself.

[H-Town Man]

Does lack of zoning hurt redevelopment in places like this? It seems like if it were all zoned for, say, residential, with a height limit, then land prices would be lower and development could take place. But since you can build anything there, then land prices are high, more appropriate for skyscrapers than for residential living.

The people who did Victory in Dallas did it right by buying up all that land en masse and planning it out. Now they have the kind of district that Houston could have had around MMP.

[ToolMan]

There's still a chance with the area around Irma's - nothing but surface lots and a few warehouses. Those Nabisco building lofts will be ready to move in by the early part of next year.

[RedScare]

Does lack of zoning hurt redevelopment in places like this? It seems like if it were all zoned for, say, residential, with a height limit, then land prices would be lower and development could take place. But since you can build anything there, then land prices are high, more appropriate for skyscrapers than for residential living.

The people who did Victory in Dallas did it right by buying up all that land en masse and planning it out. Now they have the kind of district that Houston could have had around MMP.

Victory is not comparable. Victory was a toxic brownfield that needed $400 million in remediation, similar to Hardy Yards. It is not in the CBD, like the area around MMP.

Why would a city zone its CBD residential? We have 600 square miles for houses. The CBD is for business.

[H-Town Man]

Victory is not comparable. Victory was a toxic brownfield that needed $400 million in remediation, similar to Hardy Yards. It is not in the CBD, like the area around MMP.

Why would a city zone its CBD residential? We have 600 square miles for houses. The CBD is for business.

Thanks for the info on Victory. I didn't say the city would zone the entire CBD residential. I was referring to the area around MMP. Maybe that wasn't clear.

[Subdude]

Does lack of zoning hurt redevelopment in places like this? It seems like if it were all zoned for, say, residential, with a height limit, then land prices would be lower and development could take place. But since you can build anything there, then land prices are high, more appropriate for skyscrapers than for residential living.

That could certainly be a factor. Also, surface parking is pretty valuable right by MMP, so that reduces the economic incentive to redevelop. I'm sure the owners will be perfectly content with a surface lot for many years, and they would strongly object if it were to be zoned low-rise residential. As I said earlier, regardless of growth around the courts, I wouldn't expect any material development around the ballpark for another decade or longer.

The area around MMP has never developed as hoped, and lack of enforceable zoning may well be a reason. Like we've seen in Midtown, those "walkable urban areas" just aren't going to spontaneously develop. There has to be an enforceable plan behind it.

Why would a city zone its CBD residential? We have 600 square miles for houses. The CBD is for business.

I'm sure the CBD could handle both. Some single family houses were planned for a block on Leeland, but that fell through. There's a topic about them around here.

[RedScare]

A city could zone part of its CBD residential, but again, why would it? There is plenty of available land around the CBD for residential. As for MMP, even zoning it residential would not encourage residential development. As Subdude correctly points out, the surface lots make a lot of money. If this land were zoned to residential, making it LESS valuable (not saying it would, just responding to H-Town), there would be no incentive for the landowners to EVER sell, as the grandfathered lots would be more valuable as they are. This would be counterproductive to what we want to see done.

CBD land is a finite resource. Only that land inside the freeway loop is CBD. Therefore, it is increasingly valuable as lots get developed. It is to be expected that the lots on the periphery would develop last. At this time, only the MMP land and the land west, south and east of Toyota Center are really left, as far as multi-block areas of open space. Most land west of Main Street is developed, and an east-west swath between Walker and Dallas is largely developed. The courthouse area is fairly full. As the park and the Finger building and HP come online, I see other projects filling in around them. MMP will probably be last, just because of its location, and because landowners seem content to wait to get their price. I don't see any amount of government meddling changing that dynamic, though the METRO Southest Line may make the area between the park and MMP more attractive.

[bach]

"As Subdude correctly points out, the surface lots make a lot of money."

Careful there. Some of the parking lot owners are holding for long-term value growth and are just using the parking lots to offset taxes, etc., and make some money. One owner of a couple of parking lots is about to start losing money because of increased taxes based on increased values.

[bach]

The real question is, will anything ever be built on that block, or any of the other blocks surrounding MMP?

Ballpark Place -

The owner of the property, Trammell Crow (the part of the company that is keeping its name after CBRE bought it), is still pursuing the project. Their primary downtown focus is the office building next to 5 Houston (block 126) and a parking garage on the block to the north of that (block 98). But in talking about their downtown office development efforts, they clearly are including Ballpark Place. Office marketing efforts will most certainly require pursuit of law offices with law partners who are baseball fanatics.

I don't know how much of the view from MMP's right field Ballpark Place would interrupt, but it would certainly hurt.

[Subdude]

Ballpark Place -

The owner of the property, Trammell Crow (the part of the company that is keeping its name after CBRE bought it), is still pursuing the project. Their primary downtown focus is the office building next to 5 Houston (block 126) and a parking garage on the block to the north of that (block 98). But in talking about their downtown office development efforts, they clearly are including Ballpark Place. Office marketing efforts will most certainly require pursuit of law offices with law partners who are baseball fanatics.

I don't know how much of the view from MMP's right field Ballpark Place would interrupt, but it would certainly hurt.

May I ask the source of the information that they were still pursuing this? Ballpark Place has been "on hold" for about five years now, and I thought the block was for sale.

[bach]

May I ask the source of the information that they were still pursuing this? Ballpark Place has been "on hold" for about five years now, and I thought the block was for sale.

Trammell Crow as late as last week publicly said they were still pursuing the site. Granted that Block 126/98 is the site they're focusing on now, but they continue to keep Ballpark Place on their list of projects.

[shasta]

Trammell Crow as late as last week publicly said they were still pursuing the site. Granted that Block 126/98 is the site they're focusing on now, but they continue to keep Ballpark Place on their list of projects.

Well, I just called the number and they didn't really know what to say about the project. I guess they are as clueless

as us.

[bach]

I also understand that they'd be willing to sell the block (every real estate deal has its price, right?). But apparently they paid quite a high price for the land, adding complication to a sell decision.