Occupy Wall Street?

[kylejack]

Oh, well of course... I forgot that Apple doesn't engage the world with its corporate financing processes and does not rely in the least bit on consumer credit. They have absolutely no interest in politics or the global financial infrastructure. They are blameless and should be held up as a shining pillar of corporate morality. No doubt exists that Apple will also detach itself from the financial sector on 11/5 and they will no doubt ask that their employees stand united with OWS protesters and wag their fingers at those that have enabled its success.

Being a user of credit or even being in the financial industry is not in itself wrong. The banks that people are withdrawing their money from are the ones who were involved in the mortgage crisis.

[TheNiche]

Being a user of credit or even being in the financial industry is not in itself wrong. The banks that people are withdrawing their money from are the ones who were involved in the mortgage crisis.

Right, because the 'good' banks would never interact with the 'bad' banks. They stand alone, high and mighty above the fray.

[samagon]

Apple didn't wreck the economy, companies in the financial industry did. The bank withdrawal is scheduled for 11/5.

While Apple isn't the cause of the bank situation, or weird mortgage restructures, how many highly skilled jobs (I'm not talking about Apple store employees) have they shifted out of the American economy? How many people are employed at foxconn? Every person working at foxconn represents a person not employed in the USA. DELL is no better, they've been offloading jobs to ASUS for decades.

If you want my opinion, I think that these types of practices are part of the many reasons that banks have the motivation to get into more 'interesting' choices of money making, with so much money leaving the USA, it's hard to continue being profitable. Engines drive the banks, industry is a very powerful engine, when that goes away (or begins to dwindle), well, you see it.

It's actually really sad to think about the fact that some of the most American companies, that manufacture 100% in the USA are junk foods. Frito Lay, there's plants everywhere in the USA, and they use American ingredients. Coca Cola, Mars, etc. Guess that says a lot.

So yeah, it's bigger than just being pissed off at the banks, at least the way I see it.

And do you think Apple just stores up money and uses that money to innovate new ideas? No way, they use that money as collateral to get more money loaned to them by banks, so they can innovate more cool things that make you want to buy another phone in 6 months after you just bought one. They leverage their $100 they just made to get $1000, so they can pay their lawyers to litigate other companies, so they can become stronger by making licensing fees off of anyone that has a slide to unlock on their phone, and make more money to use as leverage to get loaned more money to make even more money. They get this money from the same banks that you despise. Business is business after all. And the name of the game is being as profitable as possible.

[20thStDad]

Just ban any kind of donations to political campaigns. Each candidate gets the same amount, and not much, from a government fund that companies can contribute to but without any kind of earmark for a certain candidate. It's the only way you'll ever have a politician truly making decisions based on what is right for their constituents. So much money is wasted on politics as it is. Every $$ that these a-holes raise to publicize themselves is a waste.

[Ross]

Samagon, Apple does just store up money and use it to innovate. Apple has over $80 billion in cash and marketable securities. And no debt. Apple doesn't borrow.

[samagon]

Just ban any kind of donations to political campaigns. Each candidate gets the same amount, and not much, from a government fund that companies can contribute to but without any kind of earmark for a certain candidate. It's the only way you'll ever have a politician truly making decisions based on what is right for their constituents. So much money is wasted on politics as it is. Every $$ that these a-holes raise to publicize themselves is a waste.

but what good does that do?

it would be just like it was before corporations could contribute to campaigns. they'd just buy TV spots and endorse candidates, rather than contributing to their campaign directly. additionally, and more worryingly, you couldn't just go to a government website to see campaign finance.

(warning long load time) http://query.nictusa.com/pdf/162/11962614162/11962614162.pdf#navpanes=0

for instance, you can see that Anne H Hess donated $10, and Mark T. Gallogly donated $35,800 to the Obama 2012 campaign

hell, and if you get rid of contributions all together, what little voice Anne H. Hess has to support her candidate more than just by voting for him, she has just lost.

[samagon]

Samagon, Apple does just store up money and use it to innovate. Apple has over $80 billion in cash and marketable securities. And no debt. Apple doesn't borrow.

did not know that, you would think a company would do that.

anyway, that still doesn't take away from the fact that they are still part of the problem plaguing America, maximize profits, if that means closing manufacturing in the USA cause you can do it cheaper where there is less regulation, and cheaper wages, do it.

[KinkaidAlum]

Just ban any kind of donations to political campaigns. Each candidate gets the same amount, and not much, from a government fund that companies can contribute to but without any kind of earmark for a certain candidate. It's the only way you'll ever have a politician truly making decisions based on what is right for their constituents. So much money is wasted on politics as it is. Every $$ that these a-holes raise to publicize themselves is a waste.

BINGO.

Such a simple solution and it would benefit ALL Americans.

However, the Right will trash the movement as nothing more than a bunch of lazy anarchists (despite the overwhelming evidence that it is NOT) and the Left will come in and try and take it over ala the Right with the Tea Party.

As long as billions are spent on the political game, nothing will change.

[TheNiche]

BINGO.

Do the OWS protesters know that that's what they stand for?

My read on the political situation is that the mainstream right is trying to convince the center that the movement has been co-opted by the mainstream left (which the right tends to characterize as being the extreme left), knowing that the mainstream left's official response will be to tentatively disavow any alignment with OWS in order to avoid validating the right's propaganda, and because the left recognizes the potential volatility of the situation; if they attached themselves to protesters of whom a significant number don't really have a cogent understanding of what they're protesting and that have little opportunity cost for doing pretty much anything at all, violent protest is possible. And violent protests by citizens perceived as leftists would absolutely validate the right's propaganda and tilt the 2012 elections in the right's favor.

[kylejack]

Right, because the 'good' banks would never interact with the 'bad' banks. They stand alone, high and mighty above the fray.

Most of the big banks seem to have been complicit in the mortgage crisis. We'll never know the full extent, because as we speak the President and most of the state attorney generals are moving to immunize the bankers that were engaging in fraudulent practices. Divestment is a common tactic for those who no longer want to do business with criminals. Apple has nothing to do with the mortgage crisis and was probably no more aware of it than the average news-reading American.

[kylejack]

While Apple isn't the cause of the bank situation, or weird mortgage restructures, how many highly skilled jobs (I'm not talking about Apple store employees) have they shifted out of the American economy? How many people are employed at foxconn? Every person working at foxconn represents a person not employed in the USA. DELL is no better, they've been offloading jobs to ASUS for decades.

I'm not an American exceptionalist, so I don't think it is more important for an American to have a job than someone else.

[TheNiche]

Most of the big banks seem to have been complicit in the mortgage crisis. We'll never know the full extent, because as we speak the President and most of the state attorney generals are moving to immunize the bankers that were engaging in fraudulent practices. Divestment is a common tactic for those who no longer want to do business with criminals. Apple has nothing to do with the mortgage crisis and was probably no more aware of it than the average news-reading American.

Criminal fraud is a tricky thing to prove, legally speaking. All of five criteria must be met beyond reasonable doubt for it to be a fraud, and the burden of proof is on the plantiff. And of course, the plantiff must have standing in court.

1. A false statement, representation, or disclosure by a defendant

2. The misrepresentation must be material and relevant to plantiff's business

3. Defendant intented to deceive the victim

4. Plantiff placed justifiable reliance on the perpetrator's misrepresentation

5. Plantiff suffered damages as a result of the misrepresentation

My understanding is that most of the legitimate criminal fraud relating to the financial crisis came out of the process of mortgage lending and subsequently, loan servicing. But those are small fish, low on the food chain. The crisis itself, the rationale for anyone wanting to create bad mortgages, is that the bad mortgages could be packaged, securitized, and sold to third parties. The process was new, the long-term data was poor, the assumptions used by analysts on both sides of the investment transaction were crappy, and only a handful of Cassandras were eventually able to foresee the increases to structural risk due to a derivatives market lacking transparency.

Where banks, investment banks, and third-party purchasers of CDOs were concerned, the intent to defraud strikes me as a hard sell because they were all active in the secondary markets long before any systematic problem was recognized. They all had exposure. Consequently, it becomes difficult to prove that all of the criteria were met for criminal fraud.

I expect that you might argue the existence of a constructive fraud to the extent that executives had failed in their fiduciary responsibility to their investors, but that's even trickier. I'd argue that when one or a few firms fail within an otherwise healthy industry (i.e. Enron, WorldCom, Dynegy, Arthur Anderson), it is reasonable to expect prosecution for constructive fraud, among other charges. When an entire industry is upended all at once, that is a failure of government, society, or human nature in a general sense. Whether we learn from our mistakes or not, and certainly it seems that the incentive exists that we should, I don't think that anybody is the better for what we've gone through. I don't think that anybody would welcome or encourage a repeat.

All of that being said, I don't see that there is anything that can be accomplished on 11/5. Nobody was without sin, not even an oblivious and/or co-opted government. If you want for someone like me to take you seriously, convert to specie currency.

[Marksmu]

I'm not an American exceptionalist, so I don't think it is more important for an American to have a job than someone else.

Well you should be quite happy with the current Administration then. It has done everything it can possibly think of to drag America down to the poverty level of other countries.

America is/was an exceptional country. A person who really wanted to could relatively easily better not only their own personal situation but also those of his family, and the people he worked for or who worked for him. Now, thanks to the left - we can't be exceptional because improving your own life is no longer politically correct. Once you start to achieve and become successful you are attacked for not giving your hard earned money to those who don't feel like getting off their a$$ to do something and make something of themselves.

Its the attitude that we are not exceptional and that you can't be exceptional that is dragging this country down. Welfare used to be a crutch to lean on during hard times, now its all many people live on. They were content to be poor and not have to work. Now, those poor who don't want to work are no longer content with what they have - so they are protesting because other people have more than them.

Anyone in this country can be whatever they want if they work hard enough for it and make the proper sacrifices. The people just are not willing to do the time to get ahead.

The OWS proetests will end in violence.... I predict it. There have already been several minor skirmishes....the big one is coming and it will show you the true mob mentality of these people. These are lazy people who are frustrated they are not being given what they are unwilling to work for....if the politicians dont give in give them what they want - they are going to take it using mob violence. If it gets real ugly the police are not going to be able to contain it and it will become every man for himself....it admittedly sounds crazy - but if your not preparing for it, then when the time comes you wont be able to defend yourself. There is nothing wrong with preparedness. We prepare for hurricanes, I have prepared for the same type of shut down of facilities for these peaceful protesters....they can do farm more damage than any hurricane ever could....they inflict not just damage but also fear.

[TheNiche]

Well you should be quite happy with the current Administration then. It has done everything it can possibly think of to drag America down to the poverty level of other countries.

America is/was an exceptional country. A person who really wanted to could relatively easily better not only their own personal situation but also those of his family, and the people he worked for or who worked for him. Now, thanks to the left - we can't be exceptional because improving your own life is no longer politically correct. Once you start to achieve and become successful you are attacked for not giving your hard earned money to those who don't feel like getting off their a$$ to do something and make something of themselves.

Its the attitude that we are not exceptional and that you can't be exceptional that is dragging this country down. Welfare used to be a crutch to lean on during hard times, now its all many people live on. They were content to be poor and not have to work. Now, those poor who don't want to work are no longer content with what they have - so they are protesting because other people have more than them.

Anyone in this country can be whatever they want if they work hard enough for it and make the proper sacrifices. The people just are not willing to do the time to get ahead.

You have ascribed the wrong meaning to the word, "exceptional," and completely missed the point.

The OWS proetests will end in violence.... I predict it. There have already been several minor skirmishes....the big one is coming and it will show you the true mob mentality of these people. These are lazy people who are frustrated they are not being given what they are unwilling to work for....if the politicians dont give in give them what they want - they are going to take it using mob violence. If it gets real ugly the police are not going to be able to contain it and it will become every man for himself....it admittedly sounds crazy - but if your not preparing for it, then when the time comes you wont be able to defend yourself. There is nothing wrong with preparedness. We prepare for hurricanes, I have prepared for the same type of shut down of facilities for these peaceful protesters....they can do farm more damage than any hurricane ever could....they inflict not just damage but also fear.

The OWS protests only end in violence if there is a trigger, such as a validating revelation of political corruption followed immediately by police brutality. It isn't a hair trigger and I think that it is somewhat unlikely.

[Marksmu]

You have ascribed the wrong meaning to the word, "exceptional," and completely missed the point.

How did I miss the point? He stated he did not believe in American exceptionalism...which I interpreted to mean that he does not believe that American jobs, pay levels, or standards of living (its exceptionalism) should be any higher or better than the rest of the worlds. If I interpreted that wrong, how should I have interpreted it?

I merely stated that the current administration, and its supporters, are happy to oblige. The Obama administration is trying to lower the US's exceptionalism by the passing of restrictive regulations and laws, and is being supported by the rest of the democrats - who just so happen to be in control of the OWS movement, whether declared or not.

I dont believe you will find many republicans among the rank of the OWS folks. They are too busy actually working - not begging.

[TheNiche]

How did I miss the point? He stated he did not believe in Americans exceptionalism...which I interpreted to mean that he does not believe that American jobs, pay levels, or standards of living (its exceptionalism) should be any higher or better than the rest of the worlds. If I interpreted that wrong, how should I have interpreted it?

You stated earlier that, "Anyone in this country can be whatever they want if they work hard enough for it and make the proper sacrifices. The people just are not willing to do the time to get ahead." If someone in another country (who, btw, would probably love to immigrate here if we would let them) works hard and makes sacrifices in order to provide the world with goods and services of value, are they not entitled to the fruits of their labor? And if that person takes maximal enjoyment of their wealth from importing some enterprising individual's product across a political boundary, does that create an inconsistency in the philosophy that one is entitled to spend what they earn as they see fit?

I prefer to advance the cause of individual exceptionalism, not national exceptionalism. It is a short leap from national exceptionalism to collective entitlement, as both favor the imposition of political or social restrictions in the name of a group of people...at the expense of the rights and freedoms of a productive individual.

There we have it, Marksmu is a pinko commie.

[Marksmu]

You stated earlier that, "Anyone in this country can be whatever they want if they work hard enough for it and make the proper sacrifices. The people just are not willing to do the time to get ahead." If someone in another country (who, btw, would probably love to immigrate here if we would let them) works hard and makes sacrifices in order to provide the world with goods and services of value, are they not entitled to the fruits of their labor? And if that person takes maximal enjoyment of their wealth from importing some enterprising individual's product across a political boundary, does that create an inconsistency in the philosophy that one is entitled to spend what they earn as they see fit?

I prefer to advance the cause of individual exceptionalism, not national exceptionalism. It is a short leap from national exceptionalism to collective entitlement, as both favor the imposition of political or social restrictions in the name of a group of people...at the expense of the rights and freedoms of a productive individual.

There we have it, Marksmu is a pinko commie.

Of course they should be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labor...though I am not as articulate as you, we are in agreement here....this administration is making it as difficult as possible for someone to get ahead. They want to impose the same restrictions upon the American people that those third world countries impose on their people...the OWS folks support the restrictions that prevent someone from ever getting ahead....They want it all shared as a collective. That is un-American, and is contrary to everything that made this country exceptional in the first place.

[kylejack]

Well well, BOA dropped the idea for a $5 debit card fee just 4 days before Bank Transfer Day. Surely unrelated.

[kylejack]

Criminal fraud is a tricky thing to prove, legally speaking. All of five criteria must be met beyond reasonable doubt for it to be a fraud, and the burden of proof is on the plantiff. And of course, the plantiff must have standing in court.

1. A false statement, representation, or disclosure by a defendant

2. The misrepresentation must be material and relevant to plantiff's business

3. Defendant intented to deceive the victim

4. Plantiff placed justifiable reliance on the perpetrator's misrepresentation

5. Plantiff suffered damages as a result of the misrepresentation

All easily met in the Goldman memos that were acquired by Congress. Even aside from the initial fraud, they have Blankfein dead to rights on lying to Congress under oath, contradicted by his own company's memos.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-people-vs-goldman-sachs-20110511

[samagon]

I'm not an American exceptionalist, so I don't think it is more important for an American to have a job than someone else.

If I were a casual 3rd party observer, I would agree, but as I am American, live in America, and would enjoy living here for a few more years (at least), I have a vested interest in the USA succeeding, and we cannot do that without jobs. As companies continue to shift manufacturing out of the USA and into less expensive markets (either for reasons of labor rates, or more lax regulations), what is left for America? Farming? I really hope not, monsanto is going to be set up to run this country.

Anyway, I don't think that wanting this country to be successful is nationalistic, or protectionist, it's my own selfish reasons, because I enjoy American Football.

Regardless, if you don't think that laying off US workers and using Chinese (or any other cheap labor), so that the worth of the company increases, and as a result the CEO is rewarded (as are the shareholders) isn't part of the systemic issue of the top 1% having more than the rest of the population of this country, I think you're not looking at the full picture.

I really wish there were a graph that showed how much work US companies have done offshore steadily since the 1970s, cause I'd bet a dollar that the graphs could be laid on top of each other, and they'd pretty much trend the same.

Even if you don't care about all that, and you genuinely don't give a crap about whether a job is in the USA, or China (or wherever), you really should care about the lack of regulations they need to follow by not manufacturing in the USA, no EPA, no OSHA, no workers protections.

here's a somewhat related article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203687504577003763659779448.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read Steve Jobs vs Obama.

[barracuda]

Of course they should be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labor...though I am not as articulate as you, we are in agreement here....this administration is making it as difficult as possible for someone to get ahead. They want to impose the same restrictions upon the American people that those third world countries impose on their people...the OWS folks support the restrictions that prevent someone from ever getting ahead....They want it all shared as a collective. That is un-American, and is contrary to everything that made this country exceptional in the first place.

Which restrictions are those?

[samagon]

Well well, BOA dropped the idea for a $5 debit card fee just 4 days before Bank Transfer Day. Surely unrelated.

I hope you don't drop the bank transfer because of this decision by BoA. I hope others don't drop it either.

[TheNiche]

Of course they should be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labor...though I am not as articulate as you, we are in agreement here....this administration is making it as difficult as possible for someone to get ahead. They want to impose the same restrictions upon the American people that those third world countries impose on their people...the OWS folks support the restrictions that prevent someone from ever getting ahead....They want it all shared as a collective. That is un-American, and is contrary to everything that made this country exceptional in the first place.

In all fairness, didn't this administration and both houses of congress recently sign off on several free trade agreements so that hard-working people can share the fruits of their labor across political boundaries? The way I see it, neither political party holds a monopoly on Americanism...whatever that is, really.

[TheNiche]

All easily met in the Goldman memos that were acquired by Congress. Even aside from the initial fraud, they have Blankfein dead to rights on lying to Congress under oath, contradicted by his own company's memos.

http://www.rollingst...-sachs-20110511

I can't stand Rolling Stone articles. The rhetoric is unbearable. Please cut and paste their substantive point.

[kylejack]

I hope you don't drop the bank transfer because of this decision by BoA. I hope others don't drop it either.

I had already been interested in switching to a local credit union for my own reasons. After discovering that many credit unions have access to a wide array of ATMs for free, I decided to proceed.

[Marksmu]

I had already been interested in switching to a local credit union for my own reasons. After discovering that many credit unions have access to a wide array of ATMs for free, I decided to proceed.

Nothing at all wrong with Credit Unions or small local banks. Most of the local banks are just fine, as they never got involved in the sub-prime crisis, and they actually run your credit before they make a loan...JSC is a great credit union that I have had an account at for years - depending on where you live there may be one by you, and the requirements for joining are pretty darn liberal. Same with Houston Community Bank - great small bank with no problems related to wall street or real estate.

[RedScare]

How did I miss the point? He stated he did not believe in American exceptionalism...which I interpreted to mean that he does not believe that American jobs, pay levels, or standards of living (its exceptionalism) should be any higher or better than the rest of the worlds. If I interpreted that wrong, how should I have interpreted it?

This is not the definition of American exceptionalism...at least, not as defined by Alexia de Toqueville. You are assigning your own definition to a term that has already been defined.

[RedScare]

I really wish there were a graph that showed how much work US companies have done offshore steadily since the 1970s, cause I'd bet a dollar that the graphs could be laid on top of each other, and they'd pretty much trend the same.

Actually, recently there has been a slow repatriation of lost American jobs, as foreign wages rise, and American companies no longer see the value in offshoring jobs. It has never been an easy process to move manufacturing offshore. Logisitcs, language barriers, quality control, and transportation costs have always competed with the lower cost of labor. As wages rise, the other problems make it less worth it. Some jobs will never return, but there has definitely been a slowing of the offshore trend noticeable to those who look.

[TheNiche]

Actually, recently there has been a slow repatriation of lost American jobs, as foreign wages rise, and American companies no longer see the value in offshoring jobs. It has never been an easy process to move manufacturing offshore. Logisitcs, language barriers, quality control, and transportation costs have always competed with the lower cost of labor. As wages rise, the other problems make it less worth it. Some jobs will never return, but there has definitely been a slowing of the offshore trend noticeable to those who look.

Based on my knowledge of highly-intelligent English-speaking graduate-degreed Indians' pay structure, their wages could triple and nobody would especially care. Three of them providing triple-redundant quality control are still a fraction of the cost of one commensurately-skilled American doing a job for which the American is less motivated. In that context, the incidental costs are irrelevant.

[samagon]

Right, and in that article I referenced, Jobs states that 700000 manufacturing jobs are lost in the us from doing it in China instead.

That is not insignificant. Plus China isn't seeing the wild pay growth India is.

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