Red light cameras to face a vote!

[Materene]

Why would a traffic lawyer be losing money on people being cited for red light running? Isn't that just more business opportunities?

I'm sure the Judge didn't waste much time deciding innocent or guilty having looked at the tape, one thing a lawyer don't want is a video of a client committing a crime.

[RedScare]

Red light tickets don't go on your driving record so there is no incentive to fight it. The value of a traffic lawyer is keeping moving violations off your record

[Scott08]

Just one more point and I'll shut up. If red light cameras really worked, i.e. made people stop running them, then after only a short period of time we could just take them down, as there would be no need/revenue since everyone is stopping now. Obviously that's not the case. If there was no ongoing revenue from the runners, there would be no incentive for the contractor/city to keep them. Bad drivers, or good drivers making poor decisions will always do stupid things, you can't make that stop either with cameras or more police presence.

KinkaidAlum, I feel your pain. I've got a titanium rod in my leg from when the woman turned in front of me while riding my bicycle almost six years ago. I couldn't bear any weight for 4 months. She made a bad decision and no amount of additional laws could have stopped her. It didn't make me stop riding or give up on the human race.

[kylejack]

Red light tickets don't go on your driving record so there is no incentive to fight it. The value of a traffic lawyer is keeping moving violations off your record

It's just the red light cameras that don't go on your record, right? A cop-issued red light ticket is still a moving violation, right? I don't see where this is cutting into the business of the traffic lawyer. He can continue to defend he-said cop-said red light tickets, right? The only way I see to reconcile that is if cops are writing fewer red light tickets because of the cameras, which I doubt is happening.

[ricco67]

Just one more point and I'll shut up. If red light cameras really worked, i.e. made people stop running them, then after only a short period of time we could just take them down, as there would be no need/revenue since everyone is stopping now. Obviously that's not the case. If there was no ongoing revenue from the runners, there would be no incentive for the contractor/city to keep them. Bad drivers, or good drivers making poor decisions will always do stupid things, you can't make that stop either with cameras or more police presence.

KinkaidAlum, I feel your pain. I've got a titanium rod in my leg from when the woman turned in front of me while riding my bicycle almost six years ago. I couldn't bear any weight for 4 months. She made a bad decision and no amount of additional laws could have stopped her. It didn't make me stop riding or give up on the human race.

You only correct your behavior after it is in your best interest to and after you're caught. There are those that take longer to learn than others. Considering the size of the city, you can't expect every single person to know when to take a hint.

Your leg is a prime example of that. She was probably careless before she hit you and odds are is still careless in her turns now.

The same example can be made of people at some of the speed traps around town. The cops frequent these areas, people KNOW they're there, but yet people speed down that street to get caught because they decided that they feel the need to speed.

It's just the red light cameras that don't go on your record, right? A cop-issued red light ticket is still a moving violation, right? I don't see where this is cutting into the business of the traffic lawyer. He can continue to defend he-said cop-said red light tickets, right? The only way I see to reconcile that is if cops are writing fewer red light tickets because of the cameras, which I doubt is happening.

Would you feel better if a red light camera violation went on your record?

[kylejack]

Feel better? No. RedScare impugned the motives of the traffic lawyer backing this and I'm questioning whether that's a credible objection or not.

[RedScare]

Feel better? No. RedScare impugned the motives of the traffic lawyer backing this and I'm questioning whether that's a credible objection or not.

Well, since he's a friend of mine, I feel that I can impugn him with impunity. Paul also gained immeasurable publicity fighting the cameras virtually since the first day that they were installed. It was a great move on his part, especially now that he can brag about his success. And, to be sure, I don't doubt his (and apparently your) queaziness about increased use of cameras and video by government for any reason. I am not crazy about it either. I am simply pointing out that much...or most...of the arguments on the anti-camera side is overstated or false. The "emotional appeal" in this debate was actually used to defeat the cameras, not support them.

However, if you'd rather ignore the unstated motives of Paul and others, I neither care nor am I offended. I just happen to know a little behind the scenes info on the matter, and shared it. Feel free to ignore it.

[kylejack]

Well, since he's a friend of mine, I feel that I can impugn him with impunity. Paul also gained immeasurable publicity fighting the cameras virtually since the first day that they were installed. It was a great move on his part, especially now that he can brag about his success.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

Anyway, it seems like the public just doesn't like them. Apparently they have never survived 15 different votes.

[sidegate]

Let's not overstate the significance of the vote. A landslide it certainly was not despite Kubosh's interpretation of it.

[LTAWACS]

I voted to keep the cameras for completely selfish reasons. I was T-Boned by a red light runner at the intersection of Woodway and Voss. Witnesses said the woman swerved around a car stopping for the light infront of her to run the red light in the empty lane to her left. She T-Boned me right on the driver's side door. Paramedics and firefighters on the scene had to use the jaws of life to get me out of the car. The car was trashed. She hit me so hard that the wheels on my car caved UNDER my vehicle. If my car didn't have a steel casing, I was told that I likely wouldn't have survived the crash. I ended up with broken ribs, a broken right hand, 3 broken fingers (caused by me grabbing the steering wheel in panic when I saw what was coming), and numerous cuts and bruises. I was in pain for 3 months and couldn't do any of my normal activities which included my day job.

So, here's my big F-U shoutout to all those opposed to this measure.

The ignoramuses who voted against the RLC will never understand. All they "know" is that it's some kind of money-making scheme/conspiracy by the govment to take your money.

[LTAWACS]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

Anyway, it seems like the public just doesn't like them. Apparently they have never survived 15 different votes.

This about how stupid the average American is... then realize that half are stupider than him.

[Highway6]

The first responses here after the election results by Sidegate, and LTAWACS bemoaned the lost revenue.

Chronicle articles since the elections have primarily been about lost revenue.

Mayor Parker's first quotes afterward were concerning the potential million $ budget gap and potential layoffs..

To me, that just shows what this was all about.. The whole safety plea was a sidenote and used to charge the debate with emotion.

I have nothing against increased safety measures, but it does seem like that debate as to the effectiveness is still going on and it most certainly seems like safety was not the primary reason these cameras were installed.

I understand cities need revenue, and I wouldnt, like many, even call this a tax. It's much more selectively applied and is a fine, no different than a speeding ticket.... I just don't like the idea of being caught breaking the law by a machine. I don't necessarily have a problem with big brother in the general surveillance sense, but I certainly do have a problem with an eye in the sky fining me for every minimal infraction. Whats next? The HCTRA and TRANSTAR tag readers that line every freeway in Houston to give us live traffic speeds being adapted to record speed and issue fines for every car that passes under ?? F that !! You're only breaking the law if you get caught... by a human.

I do feel bad for people on here that have been involved in Tbone accidents due to red light runners. But that doesn't justify a solution of installing red light cameras everywhere.

I was in a head-on collision with a drunk driver at 18. That doesnt justify a solution where all cars ignitions are hooked up to breathalyzers. The "solution" in both cases are just too far, too much. And when it comes out that the "safety solution" was by far a secondary reason to be as compared to the potential revenue stream. Screw that.. Glad they're gone.

[sidegate]

They're gone for now but the split of the vote indicates they are in a position to make a comeback in the future....

[kylejack]

They're gone for now but the split of the vote indicates they are in a position to make a comeback in the future....

http://ronpaulsaysno.ytmnd.com

[KinkaidAlum]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

Anyway, it seems like the public just doesn't like them. Apparently they have never survived 15 different votes.

[/quote

Which is why I hate the fact that we vote on EVERYTHING now. If we acted in the past like we do now, our country likely would have never progressed. Think God things like Women's Suffrage and the Civil Rights Act weren't on the ballot for John Q. Public to decide.

Some things are better left to the discretion of the judicial system. This would have been one of them.

[sidegate]

http://ronpaulsaysno.ytmnd.com

I actually followed that link.....I must be bored. Time to go home.....

[Materene]

They're gone for now but the split of the vote indicates they are in a position to make a comeback in the future....

Was it under Bill Whites reign that these cameras were installed? I was only home 2005 to 2008 so I can't remember, but apparently if it was done under his watch then looking at his bid for governor he is not well liked. That incident with his daughter's driving dui had more to do with my disliking him, your only guilty if your old man ain't the mayor, and somehow got turned around to where it was the police officers fault! Sorry that's a bit too much for me to choke down.

[sidegate]

Was it under Bill Whites reign that these cameras were installed? I was only home 2005 to 2008 so I can't remember, but apparently if it was done under his watch then looking at his bid for governor he is not well liked. That incident with his daughter's driving dui had more to do with my disliking him, your only guilty if your old man ain't the mayor, and somehow got turned around to where it was the police officers fault! Sorry that's a bit too much for me to choke down.

How on earth do you extrapolate a vote in Houston to a vote across Texas? I'd say he did pretty friggin' well to get the percentage he did.

[Materene]

How on earth do you extrapolate a vote in Houston to a vote across Texas? I'd say he did pretty friggin' well to get the percentage he did.

I would say he still lost! You know the old saying " Close only matters with hand grenades and bombs ". Further I would say that the only ones voting for him were all Democrats.

That's alright I'm not too impressed with Perry, this super highway he's thumping will be his undoing. Surprised not much was talked about this issue during the campaigning.

[RedScare]

Further I would say that the only ones voting for him were all Democrats.

Sounds like you haven't read the vote totals. In Harris County, where Republican Ed Emmett garnered 60% of the vote, and the countywide races went almost universally 55-57% Republican, Democrat Bill White actually BEAT Rick Perry. And, that's in spite of a 50,000 vote lead Perry got from straight ticket Republican voters! Lots of Houston Republicans (roughly 90,000) voted for Bill White.

When Bill White was mayor, he routinely got re-elected with 85-90% of the vote. Houstonians universally approved of Bill White.

[Highway6]

I would say he still lost! You know the old saying " Close only matters with hand grenades and bombs ".

I believe it is "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades" ... but hey... close enough

[Materene]

Sounds like you haven't read the vote totals. In Harris County, where Republican Ed Emmett garnered 60% of the vote, and the countywide races went almost universally 55-57% Republican, Democrat Bill White actually BEAT Rick Perry. And, that's in spite of a 50,000 vote lead Perry got from straight ticket Republican voters! Lots of Houston Republicans (roughly 90,000) voted for Bill White.

When Bill White was mayor, he routinely got re-elected with 85-90% of the vote. Houstonians universally approved of Bill White.

No, I'm in La so I'm not up on voting in Houston, I can see the large republican vote for White, but don't find it surprising. I've watched Houston since 1970 go from a pretty conservative base to what it now is. My take on it is this, the overall ethnic balance of Houston has drastically shifted in less than 30 years. Not a moral judgment or dislike it's just my age and it really makes no difference to me any longer. What ever is in the cards will be played in the coming years, none of us have a lot of influence in that so why worry. I really don't think any of us have a true vision of what the world or Houston is going to be like in say 40 years.

[sidegate]

Back on topic. I'm resolved to get my hands on one of these reports that cited an increase in rear-end collisions and give it a good read. I'm sure they published all their data and corrected for all confounding variables over the time period of the study.

[sidegate]

1. Further I would say that the only ones voting for him were all Democrats.

2. I can see the large republican vote for White, but don't find it surprising.

Materene, would you care to resolve these two statements, made within 1h 20 mins of each other, for my benefit? I'm having some difficulty.

[little frau]

I would say he still lost! You know the old saying " Close only matters with hand grenades and bombs ". Further I would say that the only ones voting for him were all Democrats.

That's alright I'm not too impressed with Perry, this super highway he's thumping will be his undoing. Surprised not much was talked about this issue during the campaigning.

You'd be wrong on one count anyway. I live in a household with multiple voters and while we've all supported Perry in the past, that ended this election. He has become complacent and ineffective. We really need term limits in Texas.

And yes, he drew much criticism for the Trans Texas Corridor project. Many farmers and ranchers in South Texas were and are very vocal about this and that project, in that form anyway, was abandoned this year much to the delight of many property owners. Thus the reason it wasn't harped on during the campaign.

I believe that much of White's undoing was not the folks voting against HIM but those voting against WASHINGTON.

[Materene]

1. Further I would say that the only ones voting for him were all Democrats.

2. I can see the large republican vote for White, but don't find it surprising.

Materene, would you care to resolve these two statements, made within 1h 20 mins of each other, for my benefit? I'm having some difficulty.

Cross Party voting does not surprise me, nothing unusual about that. It was pointed out that 90,000 votes were Republican for White, maybe they dislike Perry as much as I do, and I consider myself to be conservative, notice I don't say Republican. I was joking about the all Democrat vote for White, but at the same time I really didn't know how many votes he got from either side. Is that better

[kylejack]

Back on topic. I'm resolved to get my hands on one of these reports that cited an increase in rear-end collisions and give it a good read. I'm sure they published all their data and corrected for all confounding variables over the time period of the study.

I linked it earlier in the thread... http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/05048/05048.pdf

[LarryDallas]

I voted against all 3 props. because we do not need a rain tax and because IMHO residency requirements to run for local office should be more like 5 years instead of even 12 months. We should not have outsiders who do not know the city well and have been a part of it become leaders here. If they want to become true Houstonians give it time and then qualify.

On the red light cameras; I am against them because:

-$44 million dollars pretty much went and left the city economy; to Arizona in fact....did not even stay in Texas

-The disgusting relationship of city govt. and private business to strip the public of money is deplorable. Yes, this was all about money and had nothing to do with safety. All of the tickets were civil offenses and none were criminal. In other words, if you could afford it you could run as many lights as you wanted, pay your money, and be on your way. The offense should have been criminal and the penalty should have been points added to your license, suspension of license, and even having it taken away from chronic problems. Maybe even jail time if you kept doing this over and over. That would have been about safety and getting bad drivers off of the road and before a judge.

-We had existing laws for red light runners. HPD should put officers at the most notorious intersections to catch the people who run the lights. The revenue from the tickets would pay for the officers to be there...DUH!!!! This not rocket science.

Ronald Green is just a fear monger saying the $10 million shortfall will cause severe cut in the city services and job loss. If that money was supposed to go for safety campaigns and trauma centers as a supplimental income then why was it budgeted as part of the base/core opperations source of funding to begin with?

Hopefully that lawyer who started the cause and got the issue on the table will now sue city because he claims the cameras violated the constituion (not sure how but I am not a lawyer). He should in his case demand that the city refund all drivers who were fined. That would be fun.

[ricco67]

I voted against all 3 props. because we do not need a rain tax and because IMHO residency requirements to run for local office should be more like 5 years instead of even 12 months. We should not have outsiders who do not know the city well and have been a part of it become leaders here. If they want to become true Houstonians give it time and then qualify.

On the red light cameras; I am against them because:

-$44 million dollars pretty much went and left the city economy; to Arizona in fact....did not even stay in Texas

-The disgusting relationship of city govt. and private business to strip the public of money is deplorable. Yes, this was all about money and had nothing to do with safety. All of the tickets were civil offenses and none were criminal. In other words, if you could afford it you could run as many lights as you wanted, pay your money, and be on your way. The offense should have been criminal and the penalty should have been points added to your license, suspension of license, and even having it taken away from chronic problems. Maybe even jail time if you kept doing this over and over. That would have been about safety and getting bad drivers off of the road and before a judge.

-We had existing laws for red light runners. HPD should put officers at the most notorious intersections to catch the people who run the lights. The revenue from the tickets would pay for the officers to be there...DUH!!!! This not rocket science.

Ronald Green is just a fear monger saying the $10 million shortfall will cause severe cut in the city services and job loss. If that money was supposed to go for safety campaigns and trauma centers as a supplimental income then why was it budgeted as part of the base/core opperations source of funding to begin with?

Hopefully that lawyer who started the cause and got the issue on the table will now sue city because he claims the cameras violated the constituion (not sure how but I am not a lawyer). He should in his case demand that the city refund all drivers who were fined. That would be fun.

While I agree with just about everything you said, I do have to ask one small question:

Did you even READ the reasoning for Prop 2?

[LTAWACS]

This whole thing is a mess.