World Cup 2010

[20thStDad]

The commentary I was watching was exactly the other way around, that England was way off their game. I thought it was fairly evenly matched.

You almost have to feel sorry for the goalkeeper who allowed the American goal. He's already being made out as a sort of English Bill Buckner - doomed to be remembered for that one massive flub; pointed and laughed at by children on the street until he is forced to change his name and move to Arizona or somewhere like that.

As long as England make it out of this round, which they should, I don't think they'll kill him for it. If he loses them a game in the next rounds, well he might not be let back in the country.

[ricco67]

Think of the game in the context of the overall series. Scoring isn't just based on wins. They still get a point for a tie.

Very good point, no pun intended. I figured it was something along those lines.

Being a relative newcomer to watching soccer, I could tell that England did have the better team. They were disciplined and seemed to move the ball better. USA just didn't seem to be able to get their act together in getting their lines together, ball movement, or coordinating attacks properly.

[Subdude]

In addition to Germany v Australia today, I'm going to watch Brazil v North Korea on Tuesday. Spare a thought for the North Koreans. That's formidable competition, they're hardly favored, and then, if they lose, after they get home the players will be shot.

[Subdude]

As long as England make it out of this round, which they should, I don't think they'll kill him for it. If he loses them a game in the next rounds, well he might not be let back in the country.

It's not going to be pretty for him. Here's one of the British papers:

Pretty funny headline though.

[editor]

In addition to Germany v Australia today, I'm going to watch Brazil v North Korea on Tuesday. Spare a thought for the North Koreans. That's formidable competition, they're hardly favored, and then, if they lose, after they get home the players will be shot.

At least you don't have to get up at 5:00am to watch the matches live!

[ricco67]

It's not going to be pretty for him. Here's one of the British papers:

Pretty funny headline though.

I actually LOL'ed over that.

Having read quite a few of the overseas comments, that poor guy is getting seriously hammered.

C'mon Green, emigrate to the US. We'll treat you right....for awhile.

[Subdude]

I actually LOL'ed over that.

Having read quite a few of the overseas comments, that poor guy is getting seriously hammered.

Of course, if you are a soccer journalist you can never go wrong by dreaming up yet another "Hand of...." pun.

C'mon Green, emigrate to the US. We'll treat you right....for awhile.

Just ask Bill Buckner. Still famous for just one thing.

[20thStDad]

That's funny, and they should give him crap for it. But I still think if they progress another couple rounds it will be largely forgotten since it won't have any bearing on their final position.

[little frau]

In addition to Germany v Australia today, I'm going to watch Brazil v North Korea on Tuesday. Spare a thought for the North Koreans. That's formidable competition, they're hardly favored, and then, if they lose, after they get home the players will be shot.

I don't follow the sport and haven't watched any of the Cup activities but it's a slow day here so I have been reading this thread with some interest.

Normally, I wouldn't stick my nose in here but for the above post. Wasn't it 12 to 15 years ago that a Colombian player was shot because he lost the game? Especially brutal things like that tend to stick in my brain.

[lockmat]

Other way around. The English antional anthem has been around since the 1740's, while the US versions words were written in 1831. It's not a great national anthem - Parry's Jerusalem (words by Blake), and Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance are much better.

Links:

http://en.wikipedia...._%27Tis_of_Thee

http://en.wikipedia...._save_the_queen

England was the obvious better team, but seemed a little flat. Teh US made a bunch of mistakes, did a poor job marking opposing players, and generally got lucky to end with a draw. Having said that, I'm hopeful that Algeria and Slovenia will fall to the US, and the team will make it through to the next round.

Thanks for clearing that up. Actually, I knew that but just had my sentence structure backwards ;P Seems to me that the new song is a slap in the face to England.

Also, it seemed for the most part England and US were evenly matched, except on defense. There was like 3 or 4 times that it seemed they were running right by us on scoring attempts and we were giving a lack of effort, I was thinking...what the heck, show some hustle.

Watching Germany/Australia right now, they seemed to play differently than US/England. Germany is not as aggressive. They're more like a running football team - patient and strategic. But dang, they've made some awesome plays.

[20thStDad]

I don't follow the sport and haven't watched any of the Cup activities but it's a slow day here so I have been reading this thread with some interest.

Normally, I wouldn't stick my nose in here but for the above post. Wasn't it 12 to 15 years ago that a Colombian player was shot because he lost the game? Especially brutal things like that tend to stick in my brain.

I remember that too, he scored an own goal to lose the match. But here it seems it wasn't fans, but some drug lords who gambled and lost on the game. It's wikipedia, take it for what it's worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9s_Escobar

[Subdude]

Watching Germany/Australia right now, they seemed to play differently than US/England. Germany is not as aggressive. They're more like a running football team - patient and strategic. But dang, they've made some awesome plays.

You're right, there are noticeably different styles of play. Germany practically cleaned the floor with Australia.

[AtticaFlinch]

I don't get it. It never fails - every time a topic hits on soccer, someone pipes up to announce that they don't like or understand the game. Fine, that's their privilege. Don't watch it then.

Considering this is an American based forum, and soccer (excuse me, real football) isn't isn't in the top four most popular or profitable sports here, I don't understand why fans are confused by the fact other people are understandably perplexed by the fans' fervor.

It's like soccer is supposed to somehow justify itself to skeptics. There are people who don't like baseball, but they don't use the Astros topics as a forum to criticize the game itself.

Soccer doesn't have to justify itself, but it sure would be nice if the fans didn't take such a haughty attitude about their sport. I think American soccer fans like to keep the sport esoteric, in that it allows them to carry an elitist attitude about it.

I said I thought the game probably was fun, but that I just don't get it. I'm not pooping all over the game. For some reason though, you've leant the game some level of mythical status akin in cultural importance as the ballgame was to the ancient Mesoamericans. This is a topic about the World Cup. Why should it be off-limits to ask why the game is so popular? Humans are naturally curious creatures, and I think there are a number of us who feel like we're missing out on something that 5 billion people in the world already do enjoy. Why would it be weird that I'd express an opinion about not understanding that?

I have Canadian and Coloradoan coworkers that don't dismiss my lack of understanding in hockey. Rather than say, "You don't get it, then don't watch it," they've tried to explain the sport, and we've even been to an Aeros game together. As a result, I appreciate the sport more than I did previously.

And to the people who always inevitably point to the fact that soccer is the world's most popular sport as a sign of why it's a good sport, I'm going to pull a Niche and point out that this is the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad numerum. McDonald's has sold billions and billions of burgers, but despite the number served, it means neither that their hamburgers are good or good for you.

As for why it's so popular, I thank you 20thStDad for answering my question. It's popular because it's easy to play, the rules are simple and the plays aren't complex. At least somebody answered my general inquiry. Now, where's a good place to go to watch a game where I might find people who don't take the game seriously, and where I can act like a suburban housewife during the Super Bowl and say "Why did that guy do that?" with out getting dirty looks?

[20thStDad]

...

As for why it's so popular, I thank you 20thStDad for answering my question. It's popular because it's easy to play, the rules are simple and the plays aren't complex. At least somebody answered my general inquiry. Now, where's a good place to go to watch a game where I might find people who don't take the game seriously, and where I can act like a suburban housewife during the Super Bowl and say "Why did that guy do that?" with out getting dirty looks?

Before you (or I) get yelled at more, by easy I mean from a complexity standpoint, not physical. The players are in damn good shape, and spend a good amount of time running (though not close to 100% of the time as RedScare would have you believe).

All of the games are done by 3:30 p.m., what awesome job situation is allowing you to hit the bar to watch? I'm stuck at work with the game-cast, which is good enough. I would stream the video from espn3.com, but IT rulemonkeys do not allow such fun things.

[sidegate]

Before you (or I) get yelled at more, by easy I mean from a complexity standpoint, not physical. The players are in damn good shape, and spend a good amount of time running (though not close to 100% of the time as RedScare would have you believe).

All of the games are done by 3:30 p.m., what awesome job situation is allowing you to hit the bar to watch? I'm stuck at work with the game-cast, which is good enough. I would stream the video from espn3.com, but IT rulemonkeys do not allow such fun things.

I don't think you're in any better position to pass judgement on the complexity or otherwise of a game you didn't grow up with than I am in relation to baseball or football. And by grow up with it I mean play it all day every day in the summer in the street, every day at breaktime in the school yard, and with a tin can walking home from school. There's an admirable level of organisation in soccer at junior level here but it seems for most children to be a past-time more than a passion. I feel sorry for those poor kids baking in the sun in the Rice soccer camp....

(Good) soccer's fluidity belies the strong tactical undercurrents that constantly pull the game one way or another and that the untrained eye will miss. Granted there are a lot of filler teams this early in the tournament and you are seeing a lot of lower standard soccer in these early game, but FIFA wants a big show so we have to go through the motions before the good teams separate themselves. I have a lot of Australian friends, but their team shouldn't be there....and I'll be watching New Zealand through my fingers.....

Oh and for the record I am bitter about Thierry Henry and always will be!

[jgriff]

I think soccer is less popular here because of the size of the American market. We can have huge sports franchises in the U.S. without needing an international sport. F1 racing isn't very popular here either, the American market is so big and there is so much money to be made that we have our own racing leauges that are custom tailored for Americans. Soccer will become more and more popular here in the future though. They'll start jamming it down our throats as soon as there is big money to be made in the advertising.

[20thStDad]

I don't think you're in any better position to pass judgement on the complexity or otherwise of a game you didn't grow up with than I am in relation to baseball or football. And by grow up with it I mean play it all day every day in the summer in the street, every day at breaktime in the school yard, and with a tin can walking home from school. There's an admirable level of organisation in soccer at junior level here but it seems for most children to be a past-time more than a passion. I feel sorry for those poor kids baking in the sun in the Rice soccer camp....

(Good) soccer's fluidity belies the strong tactical undercurrents that constantly pull the game one way or another and that the untrained eye will miss. Granted there are a lot of filler teams this early in the tournament and you are seeing a lot of lower standard soccer in these early game, but FIFA wants a big show so we have to go through the motions before the good teams separate themselves. I have a lot of Australian friends, but their team shouldn't be there....and I'll be watching New Zealand through my fingers.....

Oh and for the record I am bitter about Thierry Henry and always will be!

There are certainly things about soccer tactics I don't know, and probably a few rules I've never heard. But is the playbook as thick as a textbook? Is there a playbook? Are there literally hundreds of rules they have to know and possibly use at any time (baseball)? Statistics are not the direct purpose or output of a game, but they hint at how many things are being tracked/measured and give a decent indication of game complexity. Cricket has ridiculous stats, baseball even more, American football a ton. I've seen about 10 for soccer. Besides individual playing time, what is there besides the ones they show on the gamecast (shots, on goal, penalties, off sides, yellow/red cards, and corners)?

However, the good thing that comes from how soccer is designed is that the goal means so much. I have enjoyed a good drunken goal celebration overseas, and it's far better than and touchdown high fives you see here (unless maybe your team is in the BCS championship game or super bowl).

[N Judah]

It just looks boring. Especially in the world cup the players are so good, they make it look easy. The difference in tactical quality between world cup teams and, say, the Dynamo should be pretty obvious even to people who don't know anything about sports.

Here's the main reason for such a difference:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06Soccer-t.html

[Subdude]

Oh and for the record I am bitter about Thierry Henry and always will be!

Understood: 'The Hand of Frog'.

I'll certainly be rooting for Mexico on Thursday.

I heard there's a giant viewing screen at Discovery Green.

[Jeebus]

I think this about safely sums up the average American's attempt to engage soccer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noOHdTQd6H8

That being said, I watch the the USA - ENG match last Saturday fearing I would truly miss something historical. It was painful, but I made it the whole way through.

What perplexes me is how so many Americans can be in love with NASCAR, but call soccer boring?

[samagon]

There are certainly things about soccer tactics I don't know, and probably a few rules I've never heard. But is the playbook as thick as a textbook? Is there a playbook? Are there literally hundreds of rules they have to know and possibly use at any time (baseball)? Statistics are not the direct purpose or output of a game, but they hint at how many things are being tracked/measured and give a decent indication of game complexity. Cricket has ridiculous stats, baseball even more, American football a ton. I've seen about 10 for soccer. Besides individual playing time, what is there besides the ones they show on the gamecast (shots, on goal, penalties, off sides, yellow/red cards, and corners)?

However, the good thing that comes from how soccer is designed is that the goal means so much. I have enjoyed a good drunken goal celebration overseas, and it's far better than and touchdown high fives you see here (unless maybe your team is in the BCS championship game or super bowl).

The Rules of the game are very easy to understand for anyone, and not as arbitrary as some rules of sports.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_the_Game_%28association_football%29

once you get beyond the rules governing the size of the field, the surface, goal size, ball size, number of players, number of referees, number of positions, the rules are pretty simple, and can be learned as you watch the game.

the plays that may unfold at a higher level of play, and especially at the world cup level are very sophisticated and there are a lot of shots taken when the defense breaks down, but generally, the play is set up from the defenders and works it's way forward from player to player till a specific setup is achieved allowing good position of the ball and offensive players. a lot of the teams at the world cup, while they may suck at it, are still trying these tactics, they just suck at passing, and don't get the opportunity to have their plays unfold.

[RedScare]

What perplexes me is how so many Americans can be in love with NASCAR, but call soccer boring?

I'm still perplexed at the 'soccer is boring' argument, when football produces 11 minutes of action over a period of 3 hours. I'm also perplexed why so many people feel compelled to tell us that they find it boring. I think it is some kind of secret citizenship test question. Or maybe a secret southern male thing, kind of like a secret handshake. There has to be SOME reason that people are still doing it.

[Jeebus]

I'm still perplexed at the 'soccer is boring' argument, when football produces 11 minutes of action over a period of 3 hours.

I think its a combination of factors. The first is the count down effect, as in there are only so many chances to score. The game feels very finite, where as soccer feels the opposite as the ball is seemingly endlessly passed back and forth between the teams. Football gives you lots of breaks with high intensity in between those breaks. There is a large build up when it comes to a third down, or once the ball passes over the 20 yard line, or once the clock breaks the 2 minute mark. A "do or die" mentality that can occur many times in a game, as compared to just a few times (if any) in a soccer match.

I also think the frequency of scoring has an effect too on the average American viewer. It takes great patience to watch a game where you might see less than three total goals in a game. Again, you might catch a football game that's a stalemate due to even matched teams or poor weather, but typically there are points on the board, back and forth, all game long.

I'm also perplexed why so many people feel compelled to tell us that they find it boring. I think it is some kind of secret citizenship test question. Or maybe a secret southern male thing, kind of like a secret handshake. There has to be SOME reason that people are still doing it.

I think by boring most are simply referring to the lack of scoring, as I mentioned above. I think also its seen as "European", un-engaging, non-productive, etc etc because there are so few goals scored, possession of the ball is not as sacred, and that it is not a contact sport - when compared to American Football.

Once you put it on paper, Baseball by comparison is actually more boring than soccer when watched on television. I still think NASCAR takes the cake for sport hypocrisy though. 400 laps around a circle track that usually last over three hours, and where it takes multiple laps of strategy to just pass another racer, makes it sound like it would be the most boring sport out there by "American" standards. Perhaps its the fact that its race-cars, potential for crashes, bikini-clad babes, and beer sponsors' funny commercials that keep all those "southern gentlemen" interested.

Either way, the world cup only comes around once every four years. I'll keep watching the U.S. play as will my wife watch the Italians (for obvious reasons).

[Jeebus]

Either way, the world cup only comes around once every four years. I'll keep watching the U.S. play as will my wife watch the Italians (for obvious reasons).

Speaking of the U.S., I thought this commercial was well timed for the game against England:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ezk0e1VL80o

[RedScare]

I think its a combination of factors. The first is the count down effect, as in there are only so many chances to score. The game feels very finite, where as soccer feels the opposite as the ball is seemingly endlessly passed back and forth between the teams. Football gives you lots of breaks with high intensity in between those breaks. There is a large build up when it comes to a third down, or once the ball passes over the 20 yard line, or once the clock breaks the 2 minute mark. A "do or die" mentality that can occur many times in a game, as compared to just a few times (if any) in a soccer match.

I also think the frequency of scoring has an effect too on the average American viewer. It takes great patience to watch a game where you might see less than three total goals in a game. Again, you might catch a football game that's a stalemate due to even matched teams or poor weather, but typically there are points on the board, back and forth, all game long.

I think by boring most are simply referring to the lack of scoring, as I mentioned above. I think also its seen as "European", un-engaging, non-productive, etc etc because there are so few goals scored, possession of the ball is not as sacred, and that it is not a contact sport - when compared to American Football.

Once you put it on paper, Baseball by comparison is actually more boring than soccer when watched on television. I still think NASCAR takes the cake for sport hypocrisy though. 400 laps around a circle track that usually last over three hours, and where it takes multiple laps of strategy to just pass another racer, makes it sound like it would be the most boring sport out there by "American" standards. Perhaps its the fact that its race-cars, potential for crashes, bikini-clad babes, and beer sponsors' funny commercials that keep all those "southern gentlemen" interested.

Either way, the world cup only comes around once every four years. I'll keep watching the U.S. play as will my wife watch the Italians (for obvious reasons).

I don't disagree with a thing you've said. But, for them to continually post it on a pro-soccer thread is the strangest thing I've ever seen. A non-fan posting that he finds soccer boring or doesn't understand the rules and tactics, so that the soccer fans (who DO understand) can read it is akin to bragging how ignorant you are. And, it's not like they are asking to be educated. They keep posting over and over that they don't get it. OK, we understand. You cannot see the similarities of soccer to the sports of hockey, lacrosse and basketball. We understand that you do not understand what a pick and roll, give and go, and assist are, and how they apply to all 4 sports. But, why do you want to come on this thread and keep reminding us?

[Subdude]

Did anyone watch Brazil v North Korea yesterday? Interesting match. Brazil was expected to stomp on the North Koreans, but they couldn't seem to get their act together early in the game and the first half was scoreless. Brazil ended up taking it 2-1, but the North Koreans came out looking much better than expected.

Tomorrow I'm looking forward to France v Mexico.

[Jeebus]

I don't disagree with a thing you've said. But, for them to continually post it on a pro-soccer thread is the strangest thing I've ever seen. A non-fan posting that he finds soccer boring or doesn't understand the rules and tactics, so that the soccer fans (who DO understand) can read it is akin to bragging how ignorant you are. And, it's not like they are asking to be educated. They keep posting over and over that they don't get it. OK, we understand. You cannot see the similarities of soccer to the sports of hockey, lacrosse and basketball. We understand that you do not understand what a pick and roll, give and go, and assist are, and how they apply to all 4 sports. But, why do you want to come on this thread and keep reminding us?

Agree completely. I don't think there's anything wrong with stating that you don't get the appeal, but to bash it seems a little trivial.

Did anyone watch Brazil v North Korea yesterday? Interesting match. Brazil was expected to stomp on the North Koreans, but they couldn't seem to get their act together early in the game and the first half was scoreless. Brazil ended up taking it 2-1, but the North Koreans came out looking much better than expected.

Tomorrow I'm looking forward to France v Mexico.

Why was North Korea expected to do so bad? I ask more out of ignorance because common sense would have me think that those soccer players have nothing else to do there but practice practice practice.

[brijonmang]

Why was North Korea expected to do so bad? I ask more out of ignorance because common sense would have me think that those soccer players have nothing else to do there but practice practice practice.

I think a lot of the doubting of NK had to do with the fact that they don't play many WC qualifying matches. Their FIFA ranking of 105th has a lot to do with this. The announcers during the game talked about how they had two home games scheduled against South Korea but refused to play them in North Korea so they had to play the games in China. There really is no media contact allowed by KJI and that has a direct effect on the perceptions of their team.

[AtticaFlinch]

Agree completely. I don't think there's anything wrong with stating that you don't get the appeal, but to bash it seems a little trivial.

I missed where anyone bashed soccer.

Some soccer fans - and I'll stick with the general passive-aggressive tone running rampant in this thread and just stick with the word "some" - are taking this a little too personally. (As an aside, Jeebus, that's not directed at you.) It seems to me everybody who doesn't get the sport has asked for clarification in order to increase their understanding, and perhaps even to get to a point where they might enjoy it too. Some people, I won't mention names because again that's not passive-aggressive enough, just choose not to be helpful in this pursuit of knowledge. And that's ok. Some people are natural teachers and other people naturally get frustrated with people seeking knowledge.

But whatever. It's equally as fun to bjtch about people bjtching as it is to bjtch in the first place.

[brijonmang]

Although not exactly true, this would have been a funny story coming from the world of World Cup...

http://www.bluecollarbugle.com/2010/06/english-keeper-points-finger.html