Is Houston's Status As One Of The Tallest Cities Fading?

[august948]

EDIT: Breaking news! We already have a mass transit system. Oh, and it is bigger than Dallas and Atlanta's.

Amen to that. Other than the light rail, the Atlanta area public transport system stinks. The problem there is that the Atlanta area is made up of dozens of different governmental jurisdictions and they don't always play well together. Metro has far better coverage here over a far wider geographic area than MARTA does in Atlanta. A lot of the Atlanta metro area isn't even covered by MARTA.

[citykid09]

Amen to that. Other than the light rail, the Atlanta area public transport system stinks. The problem there is that the Atlanta area is made up of dozens of different governmental jurisdictions and they don't always play well together. Metro has far better coverage here over a far wider geographic area than MARTA does in Atlanta. A lot of the Atlanta metro area isn't even covered by MARTA.

Atlanta doesn't have light rail, they have one planned though that will surround the city. And have you ever ridden MARTA? Its far more superior than METRO light rail, and it goes pretty much to all of the important areas. And where it doesn't there are buses to transport you farther.

[Simbha]

Uh, I'm not sure you quite understand. Have you read all of my posts on this thread? My original statement was that for the office space demand that we have, we are going to have a smaller number of buildings in downtown if they are skyscrapers. If we build slightly smaller buildings, we would need more of them, therefore filling out the CBD more. We also have surface lots because the overwhelming majority of people drive to work, and need a place to park. The percentage of people who ride mass transit is very small compared to cities of similar size.

What you're saying makes sense IF aggregate office space was the only thing that mattered. But it's not; DT Houston developed the way it did because of the peculiar circumstances of its history (and past perceptions of the future). To lament its path of development is to suggest that those factors shouldn't have been the way they were. That's fine, but speculative history has no given end; why not also throw out the discovery at Spindletop or the work of (for example) Denton Cooley or a Cold War with the USSR that drove a space race in which Houston played a pivotal role? All of these things contributed in one way or another to Houston's development along its particular path.

[TheNiche]

Atlanta doesn't have light rail, they have one planned though that will surround the city. And have you ever ridden MARTA? Its far more superior than METRO light rail, and it goes pretty much to all of the important areas. And where it doesn't there are buses to transport you farther.

And that's precisely why it works well for tourists. The problem is, most people live or work in areas that you'd probably consider unimportant. And as you've already established, buses don't count as transit.

[AtticaFlinch]

I would agree. It stands to reason the lots would be cheap - despite the development in downtown over the last 15 years, there is still a lot of surface parking. I don't think I've ever seen another city as given over to parking as is Houston.

The reason so many property owners downtown turned low-rises into surface parking was probably purely economic. The old apartments and small businesses that used to be downtown were getting rundown and likely becoming money losers, whereas making a parking lot would bring in income at relatively low cost and maintenance. Lacking zoning, probably the only way to reduce the amount of surface lots would be to change the economics. A tax on parking places might do the trick.

Those parking lots are easy for the land owners. The parking income probably more than covers taxes, and overhead is minimal - occasional upkeep and maybe a security guard to patrol every so often. The biggest real benefit for owners though is the income is unreceipted cash only. It's great for laundering money. I wonder how many surface parking lot owners have ties to organized crime.

[Robert W. Boyd]

Tall buildings are monuments unto the phallus; they serve no noble purpose.

Depends on whose phallus we're talking about here!

[citykid09]

And that's precisely why it works well for tourists. The problem is, most people live or work in areas that you'd probably consider unimportant. And as you've already established, buses don't count as transit.

Niche have you ever ridden on the MARTA subway system? If you did you would know that all types of people ride it. Business men and women, lower class, middle class, upper class, housewives, etc.

I remember riding early in the morning and people getting on at one point and getting off at another for work. A lot of airport workers rode it.

[livincinco]

Niche have you ever ridden on the MARTA subway system? If you did you would know that all types of people ride it. Business men and women, lower class, middle class, upper class, housewives, etc.

I remember riding early in the morning and people getting on at one point and getting off at another for work. A lot of airport workers rode it.

I agree with you. I've used MARTA before and I think that it's one of the better mass transit systems in the country and it's probably the best one outside of the Northeast with the possible exception of Chicago. But you can't use it as a comparison to Houston. The city of Atlanta is 132 sq miles. The city of Houston is over 600 sq miles. You could build the exact same system here and you wouldn't have nearly the same impact.

[AtticaFlinch]

Niche have you ever ridden on the MARTA subway system? If you did you would know that all types of people ride it. Business men and women, lower class, middle class, upper class, housewives, etc.

Housewives? Shouldn't they be at home? In the kitchen? Barefoot and pregnant?

I'm curious how you knew they were housewives. Were they tourist housewives? Were they upper, lower or middle class housewives? How were you able to discern everybody else's social rank? Is there a class-based uniform in Atlanta? What other tales of the extraordinary can you tell us of this strange wonderland you call Atlanta? It sounds exotic. Did you, by chance, meet Dr Livingstone in this Atlanta?

[TheNiche]

Niche have you ever ridden on the MARTA subway system? If you did you would know that all types of people ride it. Business men and women, lower class, middle class, upper class, housewives, etc.

I remember riding early in the morning and people getting on at one point and getting off at another for work. A lot of airport workers rode it.

I agree with what you just said in the above post, but it's not an issue that is in any way relevant to my criticism.

It's not a matter of which people. It's a matter of how many as well as a matter of convenience. And it's not enough just to say "a lot of them" and "fast" and that therefore it kicks ass...and that you know because you've been a tourist there and you saw it with your eyes, boarded it with your feet, and rode it with your butt.

This is why my sig is what it is. You need to stop thinking like a tourist and start thinking like a systems engineer. Set objectives, priorities, and constraints, and then OPTIMIZE.

[mfastx]

Well part of that is due to the fact that only 17% of workers in the Houston metro area work downtown. BTW, Los Angeles Metro Rail does an average of 300,000 daily roundtrips in a Metro of over 10 million. That's a whole lot less than 7%.

The entire Los Angeles Metro (including buses) carries 1.6 million a day. That is 42% of Los Angeles city proper population.

On the other hand, Houston Metro (including buses) carries 600,500 a day. About 25% of Houston city proper rides mass transit.

Los Angeles METRORail - 300,000

Houston METRORail - 45,000

I am sure these numbers would be higher when Houston completes their new light rail lines, we are heading in the right direction.

[mfastx]

You said compared to other cities. So you're not right until you post data for other cities that aren't named New York. Also, since you have misstated many many many facts in this thread, I'm going to have to ask you to cite your sources for any more facts you choose to post.

For example, I don't doubt the 93% figure, but where does it come from?

93% comes from the Houston metro area, taken from a commuter rail study.

But since we are comparing mass transit systems, let's compare Houston city proper. Around 25% of Houston proper rides mass transit.

On the other hand, in Los Angeles, 42% of the city proper rides mass transit.

I would agree. It stands to reason the lots would be cheap - despite the development in downtown over the last 15 years, there is still a lot of surface parking. I don't think I've ever seen another city as given over to parking as is Houston.

The reason so many property owners downtown turned low-rises into surface parking was probably purely economic. The old apartments and small businesses that used to be downtown were getting rundown and likely becoming money losers, whereas making a parking lot would bring in income at relatively low cost and maintenance. Lacking zoning, probably the only way to reduce the amount of surface lots would be to change the economics. A tax on parking places might do the trick.

Great post.

My ideas are very similar to yours, I wonder why nobody's disagreeing with you?

EDIT: I just noticed that you are a moderator, no wonder.

[TheNiche]

I agree with you. I've used MARTA before and I think that it's one of the better mass transit systems in the country and it's probably the best one outside of the Northeast with the possible exception of Chicago. But you can't use it as a comparison to Houston. The city of Atlanta is 132 sq miles. The city of Houston is over 600 sq miles. You could build the exact same system here and you wouldn't have nearly the same impact.

METRO's service area is 1,285 square miles, and by providing P&R commuter service to the geographic extremes of its service area that are extensively utilized by commuters that originate from outside of its jurisdiction, it is effectively serving the entire metropolitan area. This is evidenced by the relative scarcity of independent transit organizations in our region, as most of our region's cities would rather allocate their sales taxes towards economic development than transit, and also be able to piggyback off of METRO's service. MARTA's service area is limited to Fulton and DeKalb counties (806 sq. mi.), which include all of the City of Atlanta. Gwinnett, Clayton, and Cobb counties are populous suburban areas that recognize the need for transit, however they have opted to create their own independent and competing transit agency rather than join MARTA.

[TheNiche]

93% comes from the Houston metro area, taken from a commuter rail study.

But since we are comparing mass transit systems, let's compare Houston city proper. Around 25% of Houston proper rides mass transit.

On the other hand, in Los Angeles, 42% of the city proper rides mass transit.

Let's look at some regional statistics from the U.S. Census Bureau, since municipal boundaries are meaningless.

Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX Metropolitan Statistical Area

Selected Economic Characteristics: 2006-2008

Data Set: 2006-2008 American Community Survey 3-Year Estimates

Survey: American Community Survey

COMMUTING TO WORK

Workers 16 years and over

2,629,955

100.0%

Car, truck, or van -- drove alone

2,054,470

78.1%

Car, truck, or van -- carpooled

330,510

12.6%

Public transportation (excluding taxicab)

69,623

2.6%

Walked

39,692

1.5%

Other means

49,168

1.9%

Worked at home

86,492

3.3%

Mean travel time to work (minutes)

28.5

Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA Metropolitan Statistical Area

Selected Economic Characteristics: 2006-2008

Data Set: 2006-2008 American Community Survey 3-Year Estimates

Survey: American Community Survey

COMMUTING TO WORK

Workers 16 years and over

2,543,992

Car, truck, or van -- drove alone

1,965,655

77.3%

Car, truck, or van -- carpooled

278,462

10.9%

Public transportation (excluding taxicab)

90,337

3.6%

Walked

34,016

1.3%

Other means

44,165

1.7%

Worked at home

131,357

5.2%

Mean travel time to work (minutes)

30.8

------------------

If you remove from consideration those people who either walk to work or work at home (because those metrics aren't useful for gauging the effectiveness of regional transit), we end up with 2,054,470 out of 2,503,771 commuters (82.06%) traveling alone in a vehicle in Houston versus 1,965,655 out of 2,378,619 commuters (82.64%) traveling alone in a vehicle in Atlanta.

And I don't have enough data to adjust the mean travel time to work so as to net out those that walk, but I can exclude those that work at home, whose travel time, zero, is a given. Houston's average commute time for those that commute is 29.5 minutes; Atlanta's is 32.5 minutes. The three-minute difference, applied to 500 commutes per year (50 weeks x 5 days x 2 times per day) equates to 25 additional hours per year that Atlanta residents spend commuting, even though Houston has a larger workforce, lower transit use, and less fixed-guideway transit infrastructure.

I'm betting that a lot of that can be attributed to our HOV/HOT/P&R system, which increases carpooling so much that we're able to beat out a city like Atlanta in addressing single-occupancy auto use. To its credit, METRO has always been ahead of its time with respect to HOV/HOT/P&R infrastructure and gets plenty of national praise in traffic engineering circles.

Another thing pops out at me from the data is that MARTA daily ridership is 482,500 (5.34 times the number of transit riders per the Census Bureau), while METRO daily ridership is 600,500 (8.63 times the Census figure). This reflects that transit boardings are counted any time that any passenger boards a transit vehicle, regardless of whether they're transferring lines or making a round trip or just making a pit stop at CVS on their way home. Most people who cite transit statistics confuse the number of daily transit boardings with the number of daily transit users. And taking this fact into account, frankly I don't think that either transit agency is doing an especially good job.

[kylejack]

edit

[mfastx]

Which commuter rail study? I'm serious, please cite your sources.

The HGAC commuter rail study. I found it by going to their website, and it was on one of the adobe documents. I would take me hours to find it again, if it is still up on the net. I just remember the numbers because they jumped out at me.

[mfastx]

Great post, Niche. I was trying to spin the transit data in Houston's favor, since our major bus routes (excluding P&R routes) and METRORail is very centralized. I'm sure the HGAC commuter rail study tried to spin it the other way, taking data selectively to try to intice people to be in favor of commuter rail.

Also, looking at that data, Houston and Atlanta are very similar cities in terms of the way their commuters choose to go to work. Atlanta's MARTA has a better rail system, but overall, Houston's METRO is better (taking into account the future rail expansion). MARTA is cutting back service big time, they need to get back on track (no pun intended).

I think Los Angeles has the best transit system of any "flat" city. They have a good mix of heavy rail, light rail, commuter rail, and buses. I think that is what Houston should strive for.

[TheNiche]

Another factor to consider, btw, is that METRO's operating budget is $330 million ($4,740 per regional transit rider) ($507 per daily boarding), whereas MARTA's operating budget is $787.6 million ($8,718 per regional transit rider) ($1,632 per daily boarding). Atlantans are getting a raw deal.

[TheNiche]

I think Los Angeles has the best transit system of any "flat" city. They have a good mix of heavy rail, light rail, commuter rail, and buses. I think that is what Houston should strive for.

The mission of a transit agency shouldn't be to ensure that a city has a diversity of options. It should be to reduce average commute times and increase the average velocity (i.e. enhance mobility) within a budget derived from legislatively-approved sources.

And Los Angeles is probably not a good example of a regional transit model. Their transit agencies are highly balkanized beyond all redemption.

[Gary]

The mission of a transit agency shouldn't be to ensure that a city has a diversity of options. It should be to reduce average commute times and increase the average velocity (i.e. enhance mobility) within a budget derived from legislatively-approved sources.

And Los Angeles is probably not a good example of a regional transit model. Their transit agencies are highly balkanized beyond all redemption.

Geeeez Niche, your knowledge and research is rediculous. I mean that in a good way. Thanks for the numbers.

Edit: Still not seeing my posts when entering a reply.

[august948]

Atlanta doesn't have light rail, they have one planned though that will surround the city. And have you ever ridden MARTA? Its far more superior than METRO light rail, and it goes pretty much to all of the important areas. And where it doesn't there are buses to transport you farther.

In point of fact I have ridden the MARTA train many, many times. I lived in Atlanta for 10 years before moving to Houston. You need to understand, though, that MARTA stands for Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority and is not just the train. MARTA also operates the bus system for the city of Atlanta as well as some other adjacent communities. While the MARTA train is nice, the rest of the public transportation system in the Atlanta metro area is fragmented and far inferior to what Metro provides here.

[citykid09]

In point of fact I have ridden the MARTA train many, many times. I lived in Atlanta for 10 years before moving to Houston. You need to understand, though, that MARTA stands for Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority and is not just the train. MARTA also operates the bus system for the city of Atlanta as well as some other adjacent communities. While the MARTA train is nice, the rest of the public transportation system in the Atlanta metro area is fragmented and far inferior to what Metro provides here.

I know that its much more than the subway. But be honest, would you rather have in place a rail system as theirs and have to work on getting more buses or the other way around? I think ill take the rail system and work on the bus situation.

A look at MARTA's Subway:

Why would a city that makes you sweat as much as Houston build that non covered system anyway? Do it right the first time so it won't cost you more to do it right in the future.

METRO Houston RailL:

[august948]

I know that its much more than the subway. But be honest, would you rather have in place a rail system as theirs and have to work on getting more buses or the other way around? I think ill take the rail system and work on the bus situation.

Like I've said before, the MARTA train is nice, but it only serves a limited slice of town. You have to get to and from the stations either by bus or by car, unless you live in that narrow corridor. As I've also pointed out, the bus system in Atlanta is a joke. So that leaves you driving in a city where there are only a few driving options to get from point A to point B. Try it sometime.