Houston Is U.S. Teen Pregnancy Capital

[kylejack]

As morals have gone down, the birth rate has gone up. Sure, people got pregnant and had sex out of wedlock plenty long days ago but I seriously doubt they were to the point where they said, "they'll do it before 18 anyway."

When was this time when morals were high and birth rates were low, because in general the birth rate has been on the decline in the United States. We're at about half the rate we had in the 50s, for example.

Edited September 2, 2009 by kylejack

[kylejack]

And someone said it earlier, parenting in general is bad. We as a society are doing a bad job. We are not being the examples we should be. Being a good example doesn't prevent them from doing it, but it helps a lot. If we do it, what's the big deal if they do too? Also, we're allowing Hollywood stars to be their examples. They do it in the movies and sing about it on the radio, everyone is doing it, so why not me too?

That damned Elvis Presley and those dirty Beatles are making our kids have sex with each other! Rock and roll must be stopped!

[sarahiki]

Lockmat, it's fine to say that morals are bad and parenting is bad now, but it doesn't offer any solution. Should we all just stand outside and tell people to start being better parents? I'm a good parent. Others are good parents. Some others are not. I don't know how to make people better parents, or to make them have morals. Do you want to force them to go to church, and do everything the preacher says? Or would you like the government to legislate good parenting? I'm guessing your answer to these questions would be no.

So, without being able to make people better parents & moral people (whatever THAT means!), we need some solutions. Seems like sex ed and birth control is a good place to start.

[LTAWACS]

Most of this just depends on their culture, their awareness of the issue, and intelligence level, and their upbringing. Simple as that.

That damned Elvis Presley and those dirty Beatles are making our kids have sex with each other! Rock and roll must be stopped!

Yes. We all know rock music leads to sin.

Edited September 2, 2009 by LTAWACS

[TheNiche]

Kids should learn about the body itself, in a scientific biological way and not a sexual way. Teach the body parts, and leave the sexuality out of it. What I am against is the inevitable interjection by the teachers that its normal to think you should be having sex when you are 12 and the how to have sex, etc.

Just teach the biology behind the act, and leave the moral debate/abstinence/how to wear condom, out of the discussion. Its not the schools jobs.

Sexuality is a part of the biology. It is ingrained into our animal brains and is ruled by biochemical processes. ...or when the Discovery Channel depicts the mating behaviors of a tree frog, do you consider that to be immoral pornographic smut?

And frankly, if a kid is 12 years old and not interested in sex, then something is wrong with them--that doesn't mean that 12-year-olds should be having it unless they want to, but it'll do them absolutely no good to be shamed and kept in the dark about normal urges and activities by authority figures because they'll just end up learning half-truths from all the rest of their ill-informed peer group...which leads to bad decisions, the consequences being babies, STDs, incest, and--given the psychological trauma that can occur as a consequence of poor sexual experiences among adolescents--depression and suicide also have to be on the list.

Were I to approach this from a judeochristian viewpoint, I might say, "Truth is the light of God, which shines down from Heaven. Let the lightness of God wipe away the darkness and glance at the magnificent works of God. Rejoice in the knowledge of His work, which is the universe, the Earth, and humanity. To understand His creation is to praise Him. To dwell in ignorance is in and of itself not sinful, but nor is it glorious; to dwell in ignorance purposefully in spite of God is sinful. Let us go out and teach those who dwell in ignorance; let us cast the light of God upon His works that the ignorant might see His greatness and glory. Only then will they be endowed with the capacity for reasoned thought, and only then will they be capable either of celebrating His greatness or sinning against Him. (All hail the Ori!)"

[lockmat]

When was this time when morals were high and birth rates were low, because in general the birth rate has been on the decline in the United States. We're at about half the rate we had in the 50s, for example.

I'm just saying that morals were highER and birth rates were loweER, not that there was an extreme difference. Plus, I think contraceptives are much more advanced these days. Imagine if they were at the same quality that they were years ago, then birth rates would not be going down.

[kylejack]

I'm just saying that morals were highER and birth rates were loweER, not that there was an extreme difference. Plus, I think contraceptives are much more advanced these days. Imagine if they were at the same quality that they were years ago, then birth rates would not be going down.

If birth rates are going down, then they were not lower they were higher. Else what could they come down from? I agree with you that contraceptives are better these days, but what's the point in effective contraceptive if we have people who want to teach kids they will get pregnant no matter what if they have sex rather than teaching them ways to use contraception effectively?

[lockmat]

Lockmat, it's fine to say that morals are bad and parenting is bad now, but it doesn't offer any solution. Should we all just stand outside and tell people to start being better parents? I'm a good parent. Others are good parents. Some others are not. I don't know how to make people better parents, or to make them have morals. Do you want to force them to go to church, and do everything the preacher says? Or would you like the government to legislate good parenting? I'm guessing your answer to these questions would be no.

So, without being able to make people better parents & moral people (whatever THAT means!), we need some solutions. Seems like sex ed and birth control is a good place to start.

I see and understand your point.

I would not agree with giving out birth control. If sex ed. was given, maybe they should give a lesson on the history of sex/marriage and how it's been done in the past by ireligous and religious. Consequences could be taught as well as that sex will not make you happy, that it's only temporary and sex outside of marriage almost always has a bad effect, and almost never a good one. And from what I know sex ed has been taught for a while. I had to take health in middle school and high school. We talked about STDs and pregnancy in both. It didn't teach my generation anything. Sure they're aware but they're still getting STDs and getting pregnant. Knowledge helps, but knowledge without action does nothing.

[kylejack]

Consequences could be taught as well as that sex will not make you happy, that it's only temporary and sex outside of marriage almost always has a bad effect, and almost never a good one.

Hm, that has not been my experience.

[Marksmu]

Lockmat, it's fine to say that morals are bad and parenting is bad now, but it doesn't offer any solution. Should we all just stand outside and tell people to start being better parents? I'm a good parent. Others are good parents. Some others are not. I don't know how to make people better parents, or to make them have morals. Do you want to force them to go to church, and do everything the preacher says? Or would you like the government to legislate good parenting? I'm guessing your answer to these questions would be no.

So, without being able to make people better parents & moral people (whatever THAT means!), we need some solutions. Seems like sex ed and birth control is a good place to start.

The solution is to improve the quality of what goes into the kdis heads. Being young myself and not having kids yet (29 working on it) I would never in a million years let my kids watch alot of the television out there now, and I certainly will not let them listen to a LARGE majority of the music...my mom said it time and time again till it was ingrained in my head..."trash in, trash out" If all kids get to watch on TV is sex, sex, sex, that will be all they think about and do. Teens are going to think about it anyways, but when its on every show, every commercial, and the main theme of every song, its worse than it would otherwise be. Parents should step up and take some responsibility for their failings, and cure them.

Also, parents are deferring to schools for everything, and not doing things with their children in their free time. A teen who is busy doing things that they enjoy are not going to be busy having sex. Teens who have nothing to do, and just sit around thinking about sex will end up having more of it out of bordem more than anything else. Take your kids fishing, take em hunting, take em camping, take them to the theater, take them places that they REALLY enjoy....they will from that point on think about that event, and how they can get to do it again...it will take up the space in their heads...They will still think about sex, and many will still have it, but it will be less, and it will help.

Get involved in their lives, society is going to hell in a handbasket, we need to stop the proliferation of trash in every aspect of every day life. Get back to the basics - get em a dog, get em in sports, get em in something other than the couch in front of the tv, computer, or a video game.

[crunchtastic]

When was this time when morals were high and birth rates were low, because in general the birth rate has been on the decline in the United States. We're at about half the rate we had in the 50s, for example.

It has little-to-nothing to do with morals, and everything to do with relative wealth.

In the case of dropping birth rates since the 50s, that can be attributed in part to the birth control pill and the rise of the post war middle class.

In much broader terms, birth rates across cultures and generations are in large part attributable to simple biological imperative: the better off a society is, the fewer bodies it takes to continue propagating the human race. It has been anthropolically observed for a long time that once a culture no longer has to scrape by to just subsist, they don't need as many bodies working to produce food; as many bodies to fill the gap left by infant, mortality, famine, and high rates of disease.

[kylejack]

It has little-to-nothing to do with morals, and everything to do with relative wealth.

In the case of dropping birth rates since the 50s, that can be attributed in part to the birth control pill and the rise of the post war middle class.

In much broader terms, birth rates across cultures and generations are in large part attributable to simple biological imperative: the better off a society is, the fewer bodies it takes to continue propagating the human race. It has been anthropolically observed for a long time that once a culture no longer has to scrape by to just subsist, they don't need as many bodies working to produce food; as many bodies to fill the gap left by infant, mortality, famine, and high rates of disease.

Thank you for taking the discussion to a higher level, I was getting a little bored. Have you read Guns, Germs, and Steel? It hits on a lot of these themes. Great book.

[JLWM8609]

Sure, people got pregnant and had sex out of wedlock plenty long days ago but I seriously doubt they were to the point where they said, "they'll do it before 18 anyway."

Like you've said, teenage pregnancy is nothing new. It's just that today, it's more in your face and with all of the STDs out there today and their negative connotations, it's no longer the most "shocking" thing that society considers could happen to a sexually active teenage girl. I've heard that in the past, unwed teenage mothers were basically outcasts. Pregnancy before marriage was considered to be the most damaging social character of a young woman for most of the 20th century. In some cases, the teenage mother would be pulled out of school and taken out of the household and sent to live with another relative like an aunt in another city or on another side of town. I suppose this was all part of the outcast mentality regarding teenage pregnancy in those days, belief that if you get her away from the family and the school, everything will be alright.

Here's a documented instance of the mentality from back in the day. I have a book about the composers and songwriters of early 20th century black gospel music, and one of them, Lucie E. Campbell Williams was a teacher. The book tells of Mrs. Williams knowing that one of her students was pregnant and on the day before graduation during the rehearsal of the graduation procession told her "You'll never disgrace this school with two of you in line! Both of you can't march in this line, baby. Sit down. I'll mail you your diploma! Get out of line!" This was probably during the 1920s or 1930s.

[Marksmu]

The solution is to improve the quality of what goes into the kdis heads. Being young myself and not having kids yet (29 working on it) I would never in a million years let my kids watch alot of the television out there now, and I certainly will not let them listen to a LARGE majority of the music...my mom said it time and time again till it was ingrained in my head..."trash in, trash out" If all kids get to watch on TV is sex, sex, sex, that will be all they think about and do. Teens are going to think about it anyways, but when its on every show, every commercial, and the main theme of every song, its worse than it would otherwise be. Parents should step up and take some responsibility for their failings, and cure them.

Also, parents are deferring to schools for everything, and not doing things with their children in their free time. A teen who is busy doing things that they enjoy are not going to be busy having sex. Teens who have nothing to do, and just sit around thinking about sex will end up having more of it out of bordem more than anything else. Take your kids fishing, take em hunting, take em camping, take them to the theater, take them places that they REALLY enjoy....they will from that point on think about that event, and how they can get to do it again...it will take up the space in their heads...They will still think about sex, and many will still have it, but it will be less, and it will help.

Get involved in their lives, society is going to hell in a handbasket, we need to stop the proliferation of trash in every aspect of every day life. Get back to the basics - get em a dog, get em in sports, get em in something other than the couch in front of the tv, computer, or a video game.

Brilliant! Negative responses to a recommendation of getting involved in your kids lives. What a great society we live in. Let teachers tell them its normal to have sex at 12, give em porn and alcohol, provide them with clean needles so they can do drugs more readily, and by all means, do not interrupt them when they are at your house locked in their rooms doing whatever it is they are doing. Its harmless and they are going to do it anyway...(sarcasm, because the people giving negatives to my last comment probably are not quite intelligent enough to know sarcasm when they read it)

[spiderroller]

It's not a race or color, legal or illegal problem. It's a human problem. One race or legal/illegal people do not have more sex than another race legal/illegal.

This might be the same as giving kids pamphlets while they're young to AA phone numbers and drug rehab clinics so when they "do it anyway" they'll have a place to go. It's only going after the symptom, not the problem.

Please. SEX is human nature..... alcohol isn't even remotely a comparison to the peer pressure, etc. when it comes to SEX. Apples and Oranges. Poor analogy. There is no analogy .... otherwise... we'd have massive numbers of teenage alcoholics.

[lockmat]

Hm, that has not been my experience.

I'm not saying sex doesn't feel good. Of course it does. What I'm saying is the satisfaction is very temporal and does not ultimately make one happy. Happiness is what many kids and adults are looking to get out of it, but it just doesn't last. One must continue to have sex to produce that happiness. What happens when they cannot find a partner, is the happiness gone? Well, I guess they resort to mastrubation and pornography or even those of the same sex. Hopefully none turn to prostitution, little kids or raping. The satisfaction is not worth the risk of all the bad stuff that can happen with sex out of wedlock.

[RedScare]

I'm not saying sex doesn't feel good. Of course it does. What I'm saying is the satisfaction is very temporal and does not ultimately make one happy. Happiness is what many kids and adults are looking to get out of it, but it just doesn't last. One must continue to have sex to produce that happiness. What happens when they cannot find a partner, is the happiness gone? Well, I guess they resort to mastrubation and pornography or even those of the same sex. Hopefully none turn to prostitution, little kids or raping. The satisfaction is not worth the risk of all the bad stuff that can happen with sex out of wedlock.

You're cracking me up! Why don't you put in the part about masturbation making hair grow on your palm?

[kylejack]

I'm not saying sex doesn't feel good. Of course it does. What I'm saying is the satisfaction is very temporal and does not ultimately make one happy. Happiness is what many kids and adults are looking to get out of it, but it just doesn't last. One must continue to have sex to produce that happiness. What happens when they cannot find a partner, is the happiness gone? Well, I guess they resort to mastrubation and pornography or even those of the same sex. Hopefully none turn to prostitution, little kids or raping. The satisfaction is not worth the risk of all the bad stuff that can happen with sex out of wedlock.

LMAO

[lockmat]

LMAO

What does almost every commercial try to sell us with? Sex. What does almost every movie try to sell you with? Sex. Songs? Love (mistakenly confused with sex).

What are businesses always trying to sell us to buy their products? Happiness. What do they say are the keys to this happiness? Sex, Love, Money

Of course, they don't come right out and say it (well, sometimes they do), it's in their subtle message. We don't run out speed to their store or jump on the laptop to go to their website, but it wears on us, little by little.

[lockmat]

You're cracking me up! Why don't you put in the part about masturbation making hair grow on your palm?

Where does the desire to have a sexual relationship with a kid come from? Where does the desire to rape someone come from? What about going to see a prostitute? This is not rhetorical.

None of these people 5, 10 or 20 years before they commit these acts think they'll do this one day. It starts with a thought and eventually when they're desires and expectations are not met, they resort to something more extreme that they think will make them happy.

[VicMan]

Where does the desire to rape someone come from?

Speaking of that, according to this Snopes article, Nicholas Groth, Director of Forensic Mental Health Associates, said that most rape perpetrators were not sexually deprived; therefore the concept "that men rape because they're unable to get sex any other way" is largely untrue - Also it states that there are three main motivations for rape (anger, power, and sadism), and the article discusses all three: http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/rape.asp

Edited September 2, 2009 by VicMan

[lockmat]

Speaking of that, according to this Snopes article, Nicholas Groth, Director of Forensic Mental Health Associates, said that most rape perpetrators were not sexually deprived; therefore the concept "that men rape because they're unable to get sex any other way" is largely untrue - Also it states that there are three main motivations for rape (anger, power, and sadism), and the article discusses all three: http://www.snopes.co...revent/rape.asp

I'm not sure I totally believe that.

One, anger is not what makes anyone get it up. Two, who seriously thinks that if they want to hurt someone physically that they'll do it sexually? No, you use your fist.

Maybe anger could be part of it, but I don't think anyone could honestly say sexual reasons are not part of the reason they raped someone.

[LTAWACS]

Either way it can't be good.

[VicMan]

http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/rape.asp says " Most such offenders derive little pleasure from the act, says Groth, but "they want to degrade their victims, and sex is something bad, dirty, the worst thing you could do to someone. That reflects a lot of our values in society." "

So in that sense sex is being used to harm someone.

The same article says: "The anger rape is usually unpremeditated and impulsive, but the impulse drives the rapist into excessive force: the victim is punched, choked, and kicked into submission."

And from the same article: "Rape is also not always about getting sex quickly. Often it's an act of rage or punishment directed at a vulnerable person for perceived injustices done to the attacker by others. Getting a woman out of her clothes quickly isn't a factor in these rapes; terrorizing her and inflicting bodily harm is."

I'm not sure I totally believe that.

One, anger is not what makes anyone get it up. Two, who seriously thinks that if they want to hurt someone physically that they'll do it sexually? No, you use your fist.

Maybe anger could be part of it, but I don't think anyone could honestly say sexual reasons are not part of the reason they raped someone.

Edited September 2, 2009 by VicMan

[RedScare]

Where does the desire to have a sexual relationship with a kid come from? Where does the desire to rape someone come from? What about going to see a prostitute? This is not rhetorical.

None of these people 5, 10 or 20 years before they commit these acts think they'll do this one day. It starts with a thought and eventually when they're desires and expectations are not met, they resort to something more extreme that they think will make them happy.

I won't waste my entire afternoon explaining why your beliefs are so out in leftfield as to be laughable. I will, however, tell you that not one of your statements is even remotely supported by studies or facts. The belief that sex makes one become a pedophile, rapist or serial masturbator, or even a homosexual, is perpetrated by the same groups that believe sex itself is bad. Sex is normal, the desire for sex is normal, and deriving pleasure from sex is normal. Your beliefs are EXACTLY why not educating teenagers about sex is problematic. However, because of American religious and political beliefs, I suspect your mindset is far more common than I would wish to believe.

I probably should quietly exit this thread before I say something that will get me banned. The posts have been...umm...educational.

[kylejack]

Sex leads to masturbation. Masturbation leads to homosexuality. Homosexuality leads to incest. Incest leads to rape. Rape leads to the Dark Side!

/

[TheNiche]

The solution is to improve the quality of what goes into the kdis heads. Being young myself and not having kids yet (29 working on it) I would never in a million years let my kids watch alot of the television out there now, and I certainly will not let them listen to a LARGE majority of the music...my mom said it time and time again till it was ingrained in my head..."trash in, trash out" If all kids get to watch on TV is sex, sex, sex, that will be all they think about and do. Teens are going to think about it anyways, but when its on every show, every commercial, and the main theme of every song, its worse than it would otherwise be. Parents should step up and take some responsibility for their failings, and cure them.

Also, parents are deferring to schools for everything, and not doing things with their children in their free time.

You started off by saying "the solution is...", explained how it's the parents' job, and then complained, "parents are deferring to schools for everything". You did not in fact offer a solution. You offered a complaint, not unlike all the others.

And your view is going to be fine if you can home school. You can control pretty much every aspect of your kid's life, including who their friends are, and ensure that they're capable in some ways and completely ignorant or even misinformed in others. But if your kid goes to a public school, then there is going to be external stimulus coming at your kid from every angle. Even if the schools are controled in the way you like, the peers, the peers' parents, and the peers' home entertainment systems are going to inform your kid in ways that are far more objectionable than schools could ever possibly be.

Take your choice: institutionalize and regulate carnal knowledge, or let it be fodder for the adolescent rumor mill. But be very clear--deferring to parents does not work because most parents are basically ineffective.

A teen who is busy doing things that they enjoy are not going to be busy having sex.

You seem to assume that they don't like having sex or that it isn't very high on their priority list. You ought to rethink your assumptions.

Get involved in their lives, society is going to hell in a handbasket, we need to stop the proliferation of trash in every aspect of every day life. Get back to the basics - get em a dog, get em in sports, get em in something other than the couch in front of the tv, computer, or a video game.

Is there anything more basic than sex?

What you're talking about is some kind of false reality supported by a very complex web of baseless assumptions, rhetoric, partial or false histories, and dominant belief systems that have come to clash with other belief systems propogated both internally and externally to our culture. Volumes could be written on the subject. It is difficult to conceive of something so cerebral and complex or that runs so counter to "the basics".

The nice thing about relying upon the reasoning mind as its own justification for an activity is that it produces elegantly simple solutions. Kid wants sex, so tell him about sex so that when (not if) he does it, he does it responsibly because he understands the inherent value of being responsible.

I'll go one further. P.E. is a joke. Kids don't want to do it, and the vast majority of them fail to develop any life skills. What if courses in sexual technique were offered by the schools in lieu of P.E.? If you want kids to like exercising (instead of sitting in front of a computer), then get them involved in something they like where they can burn calories, build muscle tone and endurance, and develop good balance. Think of it as gymnastics, but as something that they will use on a regular basis for the rest of their life. Plus, once they know how to do it well, there'll be an incentive to do it much more, so that in the long run it'd feed back into more happy and healthy people and would remove some burden on our healthcare system. And if a few extra babies come out of it, so much the better. Our low population growth rate is the greatest long-term threat to national security and global economic/military dominance.

[BryanS]

The solution is to improve the quality of what goes into the kdis heads. Being young myself and not having kids yet (29 working on it) I would never in a million years let my kids watch alot of the television out there now, and I certainly will not let them listen to a LARGE majority of the music...my mom said it time and time again till it was ingrained in my head..."trash in, trash out" If all kids get to watch on TV is sex, sex, sex, that will be all they think about and do. Teens are going to think about it anyways, but when its on every show, every commercial, and the main theme of every song, its worse than it would otherwise be. Parents should step up and take some responsibility for their failings, and cure them.

Also, parents are deferring to schools for everything, and not doing things with their children in their free time. A teen who is busy doing things that they enjoy are not going to be busy having sex. Teens who have nothing to do, and just sit around thinking about sex will end up having more of it out of bordem more than anything else. Take your kids fishing, take em hunting, take em camping, take them to the theater, take them places that they REALLY enjoy....they will from that point on think about that event, and how they can get to do it again...it will take up the space in their heads...They will still think about sex, and many will still have it, but it will be less, and it will help.

Get involved in their lives, society is going to hell in a handbasket, we need to stop the proliferation of trash in every aspect of every day life. Get back to the basics - get em a dog, get em in sports, get em in something other than the couch in front of the tv, computer, or a video game.

I'd say the opposite is true...

You sound like someone who wants to have children that are driven winners.

Maybe your kid(s) will be on the football team - star players. Or perhaps your girls will make the cut for the varsity cheerleading squad.

They're gonna be enjoying quite a bit in life, at that age - doing things they like.

They'll enjoy their extra-curricular activities (playing football, cher leading)... as well as gettin' it on with each other! BIG TIME! If their high school was anything like mine.

...vs... the fat, nerdy ones who stay at home, watching TV, playing video games. Their chances of scoring will be a lot lower than the other driven, popular ones. It just works that way.

...and I am totally confused on the thinking about sex less, and it "helping." It only takes one time... and unless you can purge all sexual thoughts from your kids minds, you are wasting your time.

[TheNiche]

I'm not saying sex doesn't feel good. Of course it does. What I'm saying is the satisfaction is very temporal and does not ultimately make one happy. Happiness is what many kids and adults are looking to get out of it, but it just doesn't last. One must continue to have sex to produce that happiness. What happens when they cannot find a partner, is the happiness gone? Well, I guess they resort to mastrubation and pornography or even those of the same sex. Hopefully none turn to prostitution, little kids or raping. The satisfaction is not worth the risk of all the bad stuff that can happen with sex out of wedlock.

There are a lot of sexually frustrated people out there. Sexual frustration does not result in being gay. Sexual frustration does not result in pedophilia. Sexual frustration (generally) does not result in rape (although I can think of one or two situational exceptions that I've heard about, but which have no bearing on this conversation).

I would challenge you to present evidence of these assumptions. No doubt, many use masturbation and pornography as substitutes, but what's wrong with that? Also, what's your beef with prostitution?

What sexual frustration can amount to is depression, and depression can manifest itself in a number of actual societal problems.

[TheNiche]

Brilliant! Negative responses to a recommendation of getting involved in your kids lives. What a great society we live in. Let teachers tell them its normal to have sex at 12, give em porn and alcohol, provide them with clean needles so they can do drugs more readily, and by all means, do not interrupt them when they are at your house locked in their rooms doing whatever it is they are doing. Its harmless and they are going to do it anyway...(sarcasm, because the people giving negatives to my last comment probably are not quite intelligent enough to know sarcasm when they read it)

I gave you the negative rep on that post. I did so because you complained about there being no good solutions and then offered up a complaint as your solution. The negative rep reflects that the structure of your argument is abysmal, not that I disagree with you (although clearly, for the record, I do disagree with you).